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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

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    Post Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

    Here is a summary of the current genetic knowledge regarding ancient ethnic groups. This is based on Y-chromosomal haplogroups only.


    The ancient Egyptians

    Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the Neolithic to Bronze Age Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b, with minorities of G, R1b-V88 and T. There might have been some J1 too.

    Nowadays perhaps as much as 30% of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from post-Bronze Age invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1-P58, 20% of the population), but also from Greece (more E1b1b + I2a, J2, R1b-L23, R1a) and Anatolia (mostly J2 and R1b-L23, with some R1a).

    The ancient Persians

    Iran has a highly heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 35% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 20% of hg R1a, 15% of hg G, 15% of hg R1b, 5% of hg L, and 10% of other haplogroups.

    The ancient Babylonians

    Babylonians in southern Mesopotamia belonged primarily to haplogroups J1, J2 and T, with a minority of E1b1b and G.

    The ancient Assyrians

    The Assyrians would have contrasted with their southern Babylonian neighbours by having much more J2 than J1 and a considerable amount of R1b-L23 (20 to 40%). They would also have had minorities of E1b1b, G and T lineages.

    The ancient Sarmatians & Scythians

    Descended from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europeans, the Scythians would have belonged mostly to haplogroup R1a (probably more than 50% of the paternal lineages), which is the only Y-DNA haplogroup that has been found in various Iron Age Scythian remains in eastern Europe and Central Asia to date. It is very likely that the Scythians also possessed a substantial minority of R1b, and smaller percentages of G1, G2a3b1, J2a, J2b2, Q1b and T1a1a. The Sarmatians would have been essentially the same, perhaps without the G1 and Q1b and with some eastern European I2a1b and E-V13.

    The ancient Slavs

    Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b.

    Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2b and T from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago. These lineages survived at a higher frequency in non-Slavic populations of the Balkans, notably the Albanians, Romanians, Vlachs and Greeks.

    The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

    According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups. The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b.

    The ancient Greek & Romans

    => See post #3 below.

    The ancient Celts

    It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-DF27, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Haplogroup R1b).

    The ancient Germanic people

    The four main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2a2a (M223), R1a (mostly the L664, Z283 and Z284 subclades) and R1b (mostly U106, but also L238 and DF19). Here is more information on Germanic I1, Germanic I2a2a, Germanic R1a, and Germanic R1b

    The ancient Indians

    The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a-Z93, with a minority of G2a3b1, J2b2, R1b (both M269 and M73) and R2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups C5, F, H and L.

    The ancient Chinese

    Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O3 is the most common in northern China while O1 dominates in southern China.

    The ancient Japanese

    Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people (mostly O2b and O3), like the northern Chinese and the Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth), essentially the uniquely Japanese D2, but also a minority of C1 (also unique to Japan) and East Siberian C3. For more information see The Origin of Japanese people.

    The ancient Americans

    Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 27-02-14 at 16:26.
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    Just as I was looking for something like this you put up a post about it. There is a baka on Jref who seems to think that ancient Israelites are responsible for Buddhism amoung other starnge and weird ideas. His evidence is scripture. I mentioned DNA doesn't hold any of his shite to be true and he asked for sources. I put up two links, but this is an excellent link. Cheers

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    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

    Ancient Greeks

    The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

    It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-09-13 at 17:48.
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    The Phoenicians

    The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000 years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 24-04-09 at 12:24.
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    The Hungarians

    Modern Hungarians are virtually undistinguishable from their Austrian and Slovak neighbours in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroups.

    But Hungary is a notoriously difficult country for Y-DNA proportions. Percentages tend to vary widely from one study to another, depending on the regional populations sampled. Some studies have found over 60% of R1a in Hungary, although the average if half that figure. Some villages have a small percentage of CentralNorth Asian haplogroups N, Q or C, but they are otherwise quite rare. Interestingly neighbouring countries like Austria, Slovakia and Ukraine appear to have more C, Q and N than Hungary.

    Hungary has a peculiar history due to its geography - a vast plain surrounded by mountains on every side (the Alps and the Carpathians). In Neolithic times, it was at the centre of the Danubian cultures, which was composed of E-V13 farmers from Thessaly and I2 hunter-gatherers (soon converted to farming). Then came the Slavic invasion (around 3,000 BCE), followed by the Proto-Italo-Celts and Alpine Celts (2,000 BCE to 200 BCE), who brought respectively R1a and R1b to the region.

    Hungary was named after the Huns, who invaded Europe from 370 CE and partly settled in the Pannonian plain (now known as Hungarian plain). It isn't sure where the Huns came from, but it is generally believed that they descended from the Xiongnu peoples of Mongolia. They were a confederation and included various ethnic group under Hunnic leadership. It is likely that there were many R1a peoples (e.g. Scythians) from the Eurasian Steppe. The Huns themselves may have been an admixture of haplogroup Q and C. However less than 2% of the modern population belong to Q and C combined.

    The next invaders were the Magyar, a Finno-Ugric people who arrived in Europe in the 9th century, and settled in Hungary in the 10th. Hungarian language is actually a descendant of Magyar, not Hunnic, despite the misleading name in "Hun-". The Magyar came from Central Asia, and are related to the modern Bashkirs of Russia. Modern Bashkirs have about 35% of haplogroup R1b1b2, 26% of R1a, 17% of N1c and 13% of R1b1b1. However, they were conquered by the Mongols, which may account for all the haplogroup C. In fact, the presence of C in Europe is usually attributed exclusively to the Mongols, and C is almost non-existent in Hungary anyway.

    A study compared the Y-chromosome of the Madjar tribe from Kazakhstan to the Magyars of Hungary, and found that some G lineages were related. The article doesn't specify the subcalde, but G1 is the dominant strain in Kazakhstan, and is also found in Hungary (but normally not elsewhere in Europe).

    Another study compared the Y-DNA of Hungarians with other Finno-Ugric-speaking populations in order to understand why modern Hungarians have so little of the typical Uralic haplogroup N1c. They tested a few individuals from a 10th-century cemetery found out that half of the individuals belonged to N1c. The sample was small, and maybe "pure" Magyar, but it nonetheless suggests that the original Magyar had much more N1c than modern Hungarians.

    The Magyar population is thought to have suffered considerably from the 13th-century Mongol invasion of Europe, and from the 16th-century war against the Ottomans. Hungary was repopulated in great number by ethnic Germans/Austrians, which explains why modern Hungary is closest to Austria for its Y-DNA composition.

    From all this can be deduced that the original Magyars were an admixture of N1c and R1a (predominant), with some G1, and maybe some R1b.

    As haplogroup Q is neither associated with the Magyars not with the Mongols, it must be either be of Hunnic origin, or from other Asian tribes part of the various invaders from the steppes.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-05-09 at 15:13.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Magyar came from Central Asia, and are related to the modern Bashkirs of Russia. Modern Bashkirs have about 38% of haplogroup C, 27% of R1a, 18% of N1c and 13% of R1b. However, they were conquered by the Mongols, which may account for all the haplogroup C. In fact, the presence of C in Europe is usually attributed exclusively to the Mongols, and C is almost non-existent in Hungary anyway.
    You are mistaken.
    According to paper by Russian geneticists - "Structure of gene pool of Bashkir subpopulations"
    Bashkirs have (N=471)
    47% R1b (35% R1b1b2, 13% R1b1b1)
    26% R1a1
    17% N1c
    C haplogroup occurs in only 2.3% of Bashkir sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis B View Post
    You are mistaken.
    According to paper by Russian geneticists - "Structure of gene pool of Bashkir subpopulations"
    Bashkirs have (N=471)
    47% R1b (35% R1b1b2, 13% R1b1b1)
    26% R1a1
    17% N1c
    C haplogroup occurs in only 2.3% of Bashkir sample.
    Sorry I mistook while copying my sources. Thanks for pointing that out.

    By the way, there are significant differences in haplogroup frequencies between subpopulations of Bashkirs. This indicate that each could have a different origin.

    I managed to find the original study by Lobov et al. (in Russian only). Indeed the percentages vary widely according to the subpopulation. the Bashkirs total is 17% of N1c, 26% of R1a, 13% of R1b1b1, 35% of R1b1b2.

    R1b1b2 (M269) is much more common the Baymaksky district of Bashkortostan (81%) and the Perm region (84%), but otherwise osciliates between 7% and 23%.

    R1b1b1 (M73) reaches an amazing 55% in the Abzelilovsky district, but otherwise does not exceed 2%.

    N1c is very high in East Orenburg (65%) and Sterlibashevsky (54%), moderate in Samara & Saratov (20%) and low elsewhere (3% to 7%).

    Samara & Saratov is the only Bashkir region with a reasonable amount of haplogroup C (17%) and O (6%).

    But overall it is R1a that is the most common, reaching 38% in Sterlibashevsky district, 40% in West Orenburg, and 48% in Saratov & Samara.
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    You did not mention the Avars. Their khaganane was centered in and around the present-day Hungarian city of Debrecen and their presence in the Carpathian Basin lasted several centuries until 800 AD. The presence of the Huns, even when compared with that of Avars, was insignificant in terms of the time spent there. Also, you mention Hungary as the name that originates from the name Hun. The territory was called Pannonia since the Roman times and long after the fall of the empire. The name Hungary is much younger and comes from the word On Ogur the Bulgarians gave to the 10 (?) Asian tribes that invaded the Carpathian Basin in 896 AD. As for the Mongol invasion of 1242, it lasted only 1 or 2 years, which is too short, in my opinion, to leave any genetic trace in the population, though I agree that the country, especially the plains (probably inhabited by the Magyars) was almost depopulated. The highlands (Romania, Slovakia) offered better refuge to the locals (Vlachs, Slavs), so their population was largely preserved.

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    The Avars were steppe people from Central Asia, so they must have been predominantly R1a, with maybe some J2, R1b and/or C3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a2 survived around Croatia because of it's relative isolation, outside the Danubian corridor used by new waves of immigrants/invaders. I2a1 survived at high frequency in Sardinia simply because it is the most isolated place in Europe.

    Ancient Greeks

    Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the R1b homeland. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

    It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.
    This was extremely informative and very helpful.

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    The ancient Basques

    Although modern Basques belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b with a minority of I2a, there is little alternative but to suppose that Neolithic Basques were I2a, prior to the Indo-European invasions (that brought R1b). Modern Basque would have retained a lot of ancient autosomal characteristics through female lineages. Modern Basque have dark hair and eyes, and it is probable that ancient I2 people from continental Europe were also dark-haired and dark-eyed, although with fairer skin that their closest cousins, the Near/Middle Eastern J2 and J1.

    Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The ancient Basques

    Although modern Basques belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b with a minority of I2a, there is little alternative but to suppose that Neolithic Basques were I2a, prior to the Indo-European invasions (that brought R1b). Modern Basque would have retained a lot of ancient autosomal characteristics through female lineages. Modern Basque have dark hair and eyes, and it is probable that ancient I2 people from continental Europe were also dark-haired and dark-eyed, although with fairer skin that their closest cousins, the Near/Middle Eastern J2 and J1.

    Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners.
    Just out of curiosity, can you give us the links to the scientific papers that will verify your suppositions about color in these people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    Just out of curiosity, can you give us the links to the scientific papers that will verify your suppositions about color in these people?
    It is my own supposition based my knowledge of the modern Basque people. That's why I said "it is probable". If DNA had been conducted on the ancient, pre-Indo-European Basques proving that they indeed had dark hair and eyes, I would have said "it has been proved". I cannot see how they would have fair hair or eyes before the R1b Indo-European invasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The ancient Egyptians

    Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

    The ancient Persians

    Iran has a heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 40% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 25% of hg R1a, 15% of hg F (possibly including G's), 10% of hg G and 10% of hg H, I, K and L.

    The ancient Babylonians

    Babylonians and Assyrians belonged mostly to haplogroup J (mostly J2, but with some J1 in southern Mesopotamia) with a minority of E1b1b, G and K. Haplogroup G is more common around the Caucasus.

    The ancient Greek & Romanss

    => See post #3 below.

    The ancient Celts

    It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades

    The ancient Germanic people

    The three main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2b1 and R1b-U106. The latter is an old pre-Celtic branch of R1b mostly found around Frisia. These people are thought to have mixed with I1 people to form the ancient Germanic culture. In Scandinavia R1a is also quite common, although its presence could have predated a Germanic expansion from northern Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden.

    The ancient Slavs

    Present-day Eastern Slavs are descended from the ancient Kurgan culture of the Eurasian steppes. The Scythians were the branch of R1a that remained in the steppes of from whom modern Russians are descended (along with other haplogroups). Slavic Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs have a much higher proportion of I2 (notably in the Croatia).

    Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E (and some G and T) from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago (Linear Pottery culture).

    The ancient Indians

    The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a, with also some R2 and J2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups F, H and L.

    The ancient Chinese

    Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O2a is the most common in northern China, and O1a in southern China.

    The ancient Japanese

    Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people, like the Chinese and Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth). For more information see
    The ancient Americans

    Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.
    I believe that it is a mistake, albeit a common one to assume one of two things:

    1. That the haplogroups of the masses necessarily represents the founding element of the civilisation that they adhere to and:

    2. That the present populations of certain civilisation areas genetically corelate to the original founding populations of the civilisations concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arahari View Post
    I believe that it is a mistake, albeit a common one to assume one of two things:

    1. That the haplogroups of the masses necessarily represents the founding element of the civilisation that they adhere to and:

    2. That the present populations of certain civilisation areas genetically corelate to the original founding populations of the civilisations concerned.
    1. Let's see if I understand what you mean. Supposing that the Romans might have been predominantly R1b (just a supposition for the argument's sake), but surrounded by I2, G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. You would consider that the "founding element of the Roman civilisation" is therefore R1b.

    2. I have already pruned haplogroups representing later migrations. But it's true that the percentage can vary over time even without migrations.

    In some periods of history the ruling class had more children (kings could father hundreds of children through concubines) and more of them survived into adulthood because they had more food and lived in better conditions. In other periods of history, the poor had more children (like now, because they are less concerned about their career and comfort level). Some regions might suffer serious epidemics that might wipe out a big part of the population. All these factors can change the haplogroup frequency of a region over the centuries. Furthermore, some haplogroups may confer increased fertility, or be associated with azoospermia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    1. Let's see if I understand what you mean. Supposing that the Romans might have been predominantly R1b (just a supposition for the argument's sake), but surrounded by I2, G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. You would consider that the "founding element of the Roman civilisation" is therefore R1b.

    2. I have already pruned haplogroups representing later migrations. But it's true that the percentage can vary over time even without migrations.

    In some periods of history the ruling class had more children (kings could father hundreds of children through concubines) and more of them survived into adulthood because they had more food and lived in better conditions. In other periods of history, the poor had more children (like now, because they are less concerned about their career and comfort level). Some regions might suffer serious epidemics that might wipe out a big part of the population. All these factors can change the haplogroup frequency of a region over the centuries. Furthermore, some haplogroups may confer increased fertility, or be associated with azoospermia.
    Where is the proof that R1b contributed fair hair and eyes to Europe? Isn't R1b also closely linked to the Amerindians and others who have dark hair and eyes. Didn't blue eyes develop somewhere around the Baltic sea- not the area of introduction of R1b near the Black sea around Georgia and the Ukraine? How are the people of Italy's southern heel, Apulia for example, much lighter then most of central western Europe? They are nearly up to 50% blond according to the recent maps and I thought from your previous posts that they are really Greco-Roman and not Italo-celtic (as you put it- although I'm am still looking for proof of the term Italo-celtic) How did you come up with your beliefs since they are not based on fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    Where is the proof that R1b contributed fair hair and eyes to Europe? Isn't R1b also closely linked to the Amerindians and others who have dark hair and eyes. Didn't blue eyes develop somewhere around the Baltic sea- not the area of introduction of R1b near the Black sea around Georgia and the Ukraine? How are the people of Italy's southern heel, Apulia for example, much lighter then most of central western Europe? They are nearly up to 50% blond according to the recent maps and I thought from your previous posts that they are really Greco-Roman and not Italo-celtic (as you put it- although I'm am still looking for proof of the term Italo-celtic) How did you come up with your beliefs since they are not based on fact?
    In what way is that related to what I wrote in the post you quoted or about this thread ? Please refrain to post off-topic comments. Each thread has its own discussion.

    R1b isn't found in pre-Colombian Amerindians as far as is currently known. It is common in modern native Americans because Western European colonists killed a lot of native men in the 16th and 17th centuries and procreated with their women.
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    Can you indicate the publication(s) relating cromagnon to hp y I(s) ?
    Thank you
    Manuel Costa
    <[email protected]>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    Can you indicate the publication(s) relating cromagnon to hp y I(s) ?
    I am not sure if there is any scientific publication on the matter. Cro-Magnon have not been tested for Y-DNA yet, so nobody can be 100% sure.

    Nevertheless, it is now widely accepted in the genetic genealogy community that haplogroup IJ or I are the only haplogroup that could be associated with Cro-Magnon, based on logical elimination and chronology. Logic combined to data analysis is a totally valid scientific argument. But scientists like to publish test results (often with poor analysis due to a blatant lack of historical and archeological background).

    Here is why Paleolithic and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers (aka Cro-Magnons) could not have belonged to other haplogroups than I.

    Cro-Magnon arrived in Europe from the Middle East some 30,000 years ago.
    Based on the ISOGG age estimates of Y-DNA haplogroups (=> chronology), only haplogroups P, IJ, G and E1b existed between North Africa and the Middle East at the time.

    Haplogroup R1a and R1b did not develop until about 20,000 years ago, and it is also generally accepted that haplogroup R appeared in Central Asia, based on the presence of R2 exclusively in South Asia, R1a from Eastern Europe to South Asia, and the oldest subclades of R1b all in Central or Western Asia. Besides the chronology of R1b subclades in Europe clearly follow of East to West migration pattern, not West to East. (see R1b migration map).

    So haplogroup R1a and R1b can be effectively ruled out as possible Cro-Magnon haplogroups.

    Virtually all population geneticists agree that haplogroups E and J came to Europe via Greece with the spread of agriculture during the Neolithic period. Many also add haplogroup G, though the migration pattern was obviously different from E and J, as the pockets in mountain areas of southern Europe attest.

    Haplogroup G is thought to have originated somewhere between the Caucasus and South Asia. Most Europeans belong to G2a, which is less than 10,000 years old. There is a higher genetic diversity of G is Central Asia than Europe. Furthermore haplogroup G is nearly absent from Scandinavia and North-East Europe, which would be a region where the hunter-gatherer descendants of Cro-Magnon would be most likely to survive in considerable number after the arrival of Near-Eastern agriculturalists.

    So, unless Cro-Magnon belonged to some completely extinct Y-DNA haplogroup (quite unlikely), the best, and indeed only candidate is haplogroup I. I am convinced that several subclades of I disappeared over time. There might not have been just I1, I2a and I2b, but probably other extinct subclades too. Given the huge bottleneck apparent from the phylogeny of I1, there might have been a lot of pre-I1 subclades, probably pruned by regular waves of stronger glaciations reducing the I1 population to only a few male individuals.
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    Maciamo, you make a very big mistake by calling Albanians Greeks, and trying to explain history as it is greek as you have been told.
    hehehe...
    Pellasgians were not greek.
    may I recommend you to read teh constitution of 1827 of the greek nation and find out what it really is. May I also recommend you to read the accounts of travelers and authors who wrote on the people who populated what you call greece up to the 19th century maintaining their original ethnic name?
    It is so funny to see that people who are obviously intellilgent at the same time are so ignorant simply because they undermine the oldest language in the region Albanian.
    you really need to correct what you write. There is nothing Pellasgian about what you call greeks, as greek is not an ethnic term but a religious term.
    Pellasgian means people of the land of water.
    In Albanian: Pellg = body of water,
    gia = land, thing, earth
    and greek is derived from the Language of the pellasgian, and the funny thing about it is that it is Albanian (SHQIP) that is the langauge that is closest to theirs, the language which translates literally the so called greek and egyptian gods which people like you who call them greeks, think are god names.
    you really need to understand history a little better and find out that it is precisely the albanians who are fully in sync with the results presented on this website as far as evolution of the balkans goes. You have no idea what greek is from what I can tell by reading your comments. Unless you call Albanians greeks, and that's a different story altogether.
    Find out what greek means, and understand that the historical terms that you are using are highly inaccurate as portrayed in the past 2 centuries. I don't want to ruin the surprise and give it away.

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    and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
    Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

    you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
    You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

    I will give you two quotes:
    Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

    And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

    I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealIllyrian View Post
    Maciamo, you make a very big mistake by calling Albanians Greeks, and trying to explain history as it is greek as you have been told.
    hehehe...
    Pellasgians were not greek.
    By definition, the Pelasgians are the autochthonous (native) inhabitants of Mesolithic Greece. They did not speak Greek, but their language may have contributed to a few loan words in ancient Greek.

    may I recommend you to read teh constitution of 1827 of the greek nation and find out what it really is.
    You are talking about the modern definition of "Greek" as related to the Greek nation. I don't see how this relates to genetic studies on ancient populations. For example, the modern country of Iran is not composed entirely of people descended from Iranian-speaking tribes - far from it. The same is true for Greece. Modern Greece is a melting pot. The Pelasgians were first there (probably haplogroup I2), then came early farmers from the Near East (E1b1b and J2), herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia (G2), then the Mycenaeans (I would think R1a), the Dorians (possibly R1b) and others.

    Ancient Greek language and religion is surely an admixture of all this, although the Indo-European component is stronger than the rest. I suppose that this is because the Mycenaeans and Dorians were the last invaders, whose language and culture eventually stuck, after some adaptation to local idiosyncrasies.

    It is so funny to see that people who are obviously intellilgent at the same time are so ignorant simply because they undermine the oldest language in the region Albanian.
    Undermine ? How ? Not much is known about the actual origins of Albanian language. Although officially classified as Indo-European, it is obviously a creole with one or several other languages. I would make sense that this was the language spoken by the Neolithic E-V13, J2b and G2a population.

    you really need to correct what you write. There is nothing Pellasgian about what you call greeks, as greek is not an ethnic term but a religious term.
    Greek is a religious term ? And what religion would that be ancient Greek polytheism or Greek Orthodox Christianity ? What about the Minoans ? Weren't they Greek at all ?

    Pellasgian means people of the land of water.
    In Albanian: Pellg = body of water,
    gia = land, thing, earth
    So what ?

    you really need to understand history a little better and find out that it is precisely the albanians who are fully in sync with the results presented on this website as far as evolution of the balkans goes. You have no idea what greek is from what I can tell by reading your comments. Unless you call Albanians greeks, and that's a different story altogether.
    Find out what greek means, and understand that the historical terms that you are using are highly inaccurate as portrayed in the past 2 centuries. I don't want to ruin the surprise and give it away.
    It's funny to see that you think you know what "Greek" mean when your definition is narrower than Bill Clinton's definition of "sex".
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealIllyrian View Post
    and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
    Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"
    So you are basing your assertion simply on the presumed linguistic of the word Troy, which is, as you should know, a Greek word (Τροία), not a Trojan one.

    The Trojans spoke Luwian, an Indo-European language closest to Hittite. The Hittite word for Troy is Wilusa.

    you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
    Were you addressing yourself ?

    I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.
    OK, go ahead. Let's have some fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealIllyrian View Post
    and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
    Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

    you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
    You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

    I will give you two quotes:
    Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

    And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

    I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.
    (quote for both your posts)
    Oh My God!

    I would never expect to find in this forum the same Albanian Propaganda I read by all illiterate people of your nation again and again but I have to admit your posts make me (and everybody else with basic history knowledge) laugh.

    All I ready by people who share your points of view is how every word in the universe derives from an Albanian one and how all that we know in this life is a result of the Albanian ancient knowledge... Get serious...

    Please, there is no one here you will be able to convince with your views simply because people who post in this forum are people with a certain level of knowledge about European (and not only) history. So keep your propaganda for forums where members didn't manage to finish elementary school and might actually "buy" it...

    I won't even bother to counterattack your views because there is no point convincing brainwashed people...

    Maciamo no matter what you tell him he will have something to reply so your efforts to prove him that he is wrong will go wasted...

  25. #25
    Nicolas Peucelle Achievements:
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    Nicolas Peucelle's Avatar
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    16-12-09
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Part time Cro Magnon
    Country: Vanuatu



    Maciamo... you are THE Master..! Thank you for all these wonderful informations.

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