Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

[LeBrok]

And as soon as first R1a born all R1 magically died?

Look at it this way. All R1b and R1a = R1 people, R1 still exists and has subgroups of R1a and R1b. However at about 20kya there was only R1, and it didn't develop any mutations for R1a or R1b yet, therefore these two happened after R1 came to existence. Other-words R1a and R1b are younger than R1, they are the kids of R1.

First of all R1a son was born to one of many R1 dads

Exactly. Who was first father or son? It is not chicken or egg game.

If you catch one of those R1 20,000 years later it does not prove that his bro or uncle was not R1a already.

Technically the both are R1 at the base. But if this R1 comes from father R1a, then this R1 will be also R1a. Unless this R1 went through many genetic mutations to delete all genes/markers of his father's R1a. I'm not sure what would be the chance, one in a Zillion?

 

[arvistro]

You are still not getting it.
How do you know that 20k ago R1a was not developed yet for sure?
Because you found R1 that has no known R1a or R1b mutations???

I can ask again. This time a bit different - R1a and R1b came from same R1, correct?
Were they born same date? If no, then surely R1 tribe who created his first child r1a/r1b was still there to create his second child AFTER first child was born already. And I can bet this AFTER did not happen same place and same century.

Which means that R1 and R1a could live on this planet simultaneously.

Think into it.

Also. Have they checked for ALL mutations on this Malta boy? Or just for all known? Or just for those they could?

Btw, Malta boy IS characterised as R1* not R1 as you tried to correct me...

I am not saying R1a WAS there 20k years ago, I am stating that in general finding one R1* 20k years ago is not an evidence for R1a age. Not in my court

 

[Fire Haired14]

MA1 is R*. And actually modern R2 and R1 share mutations MA1 lacks, and MA1 has mutations R1'2 lack.

Also, looking at human mtDNA and Y DNA we can see many many many many lineages died out. There were probably 100s of R1s who died out., The same is true for every mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroup. Even in recent times this has occurred. Look at modern European Y DNA. Of the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000 years ago, just 3(R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, I1a-DF29) makeup over 50% of West and North European paternal lineages.

 

[LeBrok]

You are still not getting it.
How do you know that 20k ago R1a was not developed yet for sure?
Because you found R1 that has no known R1a or R1b mutations???

Because we didn't find them, but found something else instead, like R* (thanks for correction). The estimated age of both is right there, so either only few people had it or it wasn't still there. My point was that R1 had to be before R1a, right? Father before son.

I can ask again. This time a bit different - R1a and R1b came from same R1, correct?
Were they born same date? If no, then surely R1 tribe who created his first child r1a/r1b was still there to create his second child AFTER first child was born already. And I can bet this AFTER did not happen same place and same century.

They can be even separated by few thousand of years.

Which means that R1 and R1a could live on this planet simultaneously.

A father can live at the same time as a son. However I'm not familiar how many mutations separates these two, if many than the spread might be few generations.
Just keep in mind the evolutionary forcing in play. There were tough times, many bottle-neckings happened and founder effects. Now we are almost exclusively R1a and R1b, R* and R1* are gone or almost all gone. That's how it is.

Think into it.

Also. Have they checked for ALL mutations on this Malta boy? Or just for all known? Or just for those they could?

I'm not sure what mutations were checked. I would assume that R1a and b turned negative. Why don't you read and learn and inform us?

Btw, Malta boy IS characterised as R1* not R1 as you tried to correct me...

I was talking about hypothetical father of R1a and b. Mal'ta was R*, related more to R1 than to R1a or b.

I am not saying R1a WAS there 20k years ago, I am stating that in general finding one R1* 20k years ago is not an evidence for R1a age. Not in my court

It goes well with all we know about age of R1a and b. The most important point is that it didn't turn contradictory to our understanding of haplotype age.

 

[noUseForAname]

Ancient Greeks
The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

Wouldn't Pelasgians (pre ancient Greeks) have a majority of E-V13 following with slight I2 and G2a for the following reasons?

As per Homer they lived in south Greece and Peloponnese. (before minoans and ancient greeks)
South Greece and Peloponnese areas have especially highest % of E-V13 (even today).
E-V13 have roots at south Greece and Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp

if I2 is indigenous from around Carpathian mountains early as you mention, and it is known that Pelasgians were always at the very south Greece, if they have came from Carpathian's it would be less likely to spread there earlier than 3,000 ybp because as you mention I2 spread from Carpathian to Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, Pelasgians would have been at least since 5,000 ybp at the very south.

I2 already a majority in Carpathian's and probably around there since 5,000 it might less llikely to find home that fast because Pelasgians were probably already settled at south Greece/Peloponnese at least 5,000 ybp.

 

[F117stealth]

"Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b."

Was just curious to know why I2 might be slavic? Why do you think Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian was slavic? From a genetic point of view is not the majority of the Y DNA haplogroup type that counts? I belive that I2 and R1a are quite distinct Y haplogroups and which one is the most representative for the two cultures?

 

[Maciamo]

"Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b."

Was just curious to know why I2 might be slavic? Why do you think Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian was slavic? From a genetic point of view is not the majority of the Y DNA haplogroup type that counts? I belive that I2 and R1a are quite distinct Y haplogroups and which one is the most representative for the two cultures?

I2a1b tribes in the Carpathian region were assimilated by R1a PIE in the Bronze Age. Keep in mind that the Proto-Slavs did not appear until 5th century CE, 3500 years after the onset of the Corded Ware culture. That gave plenty of time for I2a1b people to be assimilated and to spread alongside R1a people in several waves across Europe. Founder effects and dominant royal lineages later on are probably what caused the variations in haplogroup frequencies between R1a and I2a1b.

 

[Maciamo]

Wouldn't Pelasgians (pre ancient Greeks) have a majority of E-V13 following with slight I2 and G2a for the following reasons?

As per Homer they lived in south Greece and Peloponnese. (before minoans and ancient greeks)
South Greece and Peloponnese areas have especially highest % of E-V13 (even today).
E-V13 have roots at south Greece and Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp

if I2 is indigenous from around Carpathian mountains early as you mention, and it is known that Pelasgians were always at the very south Greece, if they have came from Carpathian's it would be less likely to spread there earlier than 3,000 ybp because as you mention I2 spread from Carpathian to Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, Pelasgians would have been at least since 5,000 ybp at the very south.

I2 already a majority in Carpathian's and probably around there since 5,000 it might less llikely to find home that fast because Pelasgians were probably already settled at south Greece/Peloponnese at least 5,000 ybp.

You quoted a 6-year old post. Since then I have revised the origin of E-V13 are Mesolithic and originating in Mediterranean Europe (southern Italy or Greece) after E-M78 crossed over from North Africa during the Late Paleolithic.

The Pelasgians came much later, but there were surely big regional variations in a country as parcelled and mountainous as Greece. So it is very possible that E-V13 was already higher in the Peloponnese in the Early Bronze Age, and that G2a and I2 were higher in the north.

 

[Garrick]

Pelasgians can be G2a carriers.

Researchers reconstructed language Phaistos disk as Colchian Kartvelian/Caucasian!

Prof. Nana Shengelaila

On Decipherment of the Phaistos Disk and Linear A Inscriptions in Colchian Language by Gia Kvashilava

http://www.academia.edu/2545249/Pro...ptions_in_Colchian_Language_by_Gia_Kvashilava

The overview of the data of the ancient population of the Peloponnese (Pelasgia), Asia Minor, Aegean islands before the Indo-European migrations show that indigenous inhabitants of this area were of non-Indo-European and non-Semitic origin. According to some researchers (P. Kretschmer, F. Schachermeyr, J. Chadwick, E. J. Furnée, Th. V. Gamkrelidze, V. V. Ivanov and others) they were Proto-Kartvelian tribes whose language formed an influential substratum for the Greek dialect after the invasion of the Greek tribes of the Peloponnese and Eagean islands.

Besides, the analysis of archaeological, ethnological, historical, linguistic and biological material, the typological study of graphical qualities of Linear A granted well-grounded Linear A inscriptions in the Colchian language.

 

[Maleth]

B

Pelasgians can be G2a carriers.

Researchers reconstructed language Phaistos disk as Colchian Kartvelian/Caucasian!

Prof. Nana Shengelaila

On Decipherment of the Phaistos Disk and Linear A Inscriptions in Colchian Language by Gia Kvashilava

http://www.academia.edu/2545249/Pro...ptions_in_Colchian_Language_by_Gia_Kvashilava

The overview of the data of the ancient population of the Peloponnese (Pelasgia), Asia Minor, Aegean islands before the Indo-European migrations show that indigenous inhabitants of this area were of non-Indo-European and non-Semitic origin. According to some researchers (P. Kretschmer, F. Schachermeyr, J. Chadwick, E. J. Furnée, Th. V. Gamkrelidze, V. V. Ivanov and others) they were Proto-Kartvelian tribes whose language formed an influential substratum for the Greek dialect after the invasion of the Greek tribes of the Peloponnese and Eagean islands.

Besides, the analysis of archaeological, ethnological, historical, linguistic and biological material, the typological study of graphical qualities of Linear A granted well-grounded Linear A inscriptions in the Colchian language.

Thats a possible hypothesis too. Could they be related to the builders of Gobekli teppe? (in southern Modern Turkey) on the way to reach the Agean and also Sumer? (non semetic people surrounded by Semetic people) Maybe pushed down by the LGM? Both languages (Summerian and Karvelian) seem not to be related to either indo european or Semitic languages.

 

[arvistro]

One more indirect clue that Early Farmers spoke Caucasian-ish languages before Indo-Europeans arrived.
Maybe they should try to de-cypher Vinca by puting Caucasian linguists to work.

 

[Maleth]

One more indirect clue that Early Farmers spoke Caucasian-ish languages before Indo-Europeans arrived.
Maybe they should try to de-cypher Vinca by puting Caucasian linguists to work.

It is believed that the Starcevo Culture were the Vinca culture is thought to have stemmed from is also non Indoeuropean and probably not Semitic either, so a Caucasian-ish (as you put it) population could also quality. However Vinca Culture seems to differ from the more southern cultures, although if they have been separated by thousands of years and inhabiting different climate conditions it would be natural to adopt different ones. Not sure if one can fit the puzzle. G's are dominant in most Neolithic sites in Europe.

Just from Memory I believe a boy buried close to Stonehenge (4400 BP) (which was built later) was a G too. A burial site was also found close by but I dont think any dna has been taken due to bones being cremated.

The Neolithic temple bone remains in Malta (5600 BP) are not identified (were statues of women goddesses were found and also mentioned by Marija Gimbutas).

Now we have Gobekteppi (8430BP) were so far no human remains were found but digging is still in progress.

The three cultures have huge megaliths in common. Again they can be totally different people and cultures. But if we would be so lucky to have bones samples one can have a better picture to see from where they originate and if they are interconnected and maybe with later emerging sub cultures. They also seem to be connected to agriculture

 

[Garrick]

One more indirect clue that Early Farmers spoke Caucasian-ish languages before Indo-Europeans arrived.
Maybe they should try to de-cypher Vinca by puting Caucasian linguists to work.

It seems that Vinca culture (named after the village Vinca in Serbia near capital Belgrade) was built by early farmers G2a and F* carriers and I2a carriers who had transition from hunter gatherers to farmers. Maybe we can have elements of language of G2a carriers (Pre Proto Cartvelian language?) and language of I2a carriers. Some scientists think Vinca culture developed first letter.

"Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered."

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

 

[Maleth]

It seems that Vinca culture (named after the village Vinca in Serbia near capital Belgrade) was built by early farmers G2a and F* carriers and I2a carriers who had transition from hunter gatherers to farmers. Maybe we can have elements of language of G2a carriers (Pre Proto Cartvelian language?) and language of I2a carriers. Some scientists think Vinca culture developed first letter.

"Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered."

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

However the Vinca symbols can only be termed as symbols and not alphabet as unfortunately it does not seem to have evolved into a uniformed kind of text or alphabet, unless some discoveries are made in the future.

 

[F117stealth]

Sure.
I was strictly referring to genetic print (Y DNA of ancient civilizations). Current population of carphatian basin is far from being a R1a majority, as well as balkanic one. Who assimilated who? I was not thinking at the linguistic, cultural or whatever else type of human community intermingling, influence & transformation.

"Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423)."

Just thinking - if a certian population with a certain Y dominant haplogroup (corded ware culture - R1a, for instance) influences or culturally dominates & conquers another population (Cucuteni-Trypillian - I2a, for instance) and slavic Y genetic core is believed to be closer to R1a then it is difficult to assume (even after ~3700 years of cultural mixture) that Y slavs are genetically descendents of both cultures. Y I2a Cucuteni-Trypillian got influenced and probably survived through the more developed cultures of bronze age, iron age, during and after slavic expansion.


Continuity theory perhaps that should be also considered here.

 

[EAB]

This is a great topic and it is really interesting as it raised a sore point with many cultures, but especially sensitive Greeks. We have things like "my ancestors weren't black" and comments like "you're saying someone was there before the Greeks?". It seems in almost every culture, regardless of where they go, someone has always been there first. Yet there are many founding stories of nonsense which say something like "no one else was there first". Of course this is down to the claim to land, but we live on a globe where people are often wondering. A typical example is trying to apply European concept borders to the middle east when the Bedouin don't consider themselves part of a geographical nation. Some Bedouin are trapped in Israel and Kuwait with no official paperwork from this decision to apply borders to areas where people were wondering. The whole point about Greece is that it set up city states that sidelined those who didn't live in the cities and had a competitive advantage over those who didn't work together. It is almost unthinkable there wouldn't be people who appeared to be black back then within the city states of Greece. In my village in England a skull was found from 1000 years ago that was proven to be of an African girl who must have drowned in a river. Does that mean I am black? No, but it isn't unfair to say black people lived in England thousands of years ago. Then we have someone saying that culture must have spread with K haplogroups because perhaps K haplogroups first domesticated the dog. There are Baboons that have dogs as pets, and someone wants me to believe any one haplogroup domesticated the dog? Whilst the majority of Greeks were probably not black, the racial boundaries back then were probably not pure. I wouldn't be surprised at all if people by modern standards would be called black in Europe existed in Europe. Greek culture was not a race, but more like America or the European Union is today, where people of all histories are expected to work together towards a united goal. Whether they do or not is another story.

 

[RobertColumbia]

MA1 is R*. And actually modern R2 and R1 share mutations MA1 lacks, and MA1 has mutations R1'2 lack....

If MA1 has a mutation that neither R1 nor R2 has, is that enough to say that MA1 could be described as "R3"?

 

[SoberBalkanite]

Marriane and Maciamo,

As an ethnic Albanian, I certainly am interested in revealing more about the ancient origins of Albanians and ancient peoples and cultures ( all of them) but I feel a need to say that I certainly do not share the presentation style of the user called RealIllyrian ( e.g. addressing anyone with words like: " you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
You shouldn't write things you have no idea..." and the like is something I find really inappropriate for any mature conversation, nor do I uphold some of his views on connection between Albanian and some ancient cultures (e.g. the connection between Pellasgians, Trojans and Albanians needs some more scientific evidence). Luckily, no seriously educated or simply sober Albanian would uphold the presentation style and some historical vies presented by our learned colleague called Real Illyrian, with all due respect I have for him ( or anyone else here as a person).

Now, going back to my original inquiry- revealing more about the connection between modern Albanians and ancient peoples (including Illyrians, Trhacians etc.).

1. Generally, there are a few theories regarding the origin of Albanians, including the two that address their conection with ancient Illyrians, Thracians and /or Daco-Mysians.
The Illyrian connection is supported by ancient Greek and Roman sources that locate Illyrians in the territory of modern day Albanian, with their capital at modern day Shkodra ( ancient Scodra). Some other pro-Illyrian argument include the fact that there is no arrival of Albanians into Albania recorded anywhere in historical sources, certain decorative concentric circles and zig-zag patterns found in both Illyrian remains and traditional Albanian clothing, certain illyrian vocabulary that happens to math Albanian words (Illyrian-Albanian: Andizetes-Andja, Bardhylis-Bardhyl, Bindo-Bind,Daesitiates-Dash, Delmatae-Delme, Hyllus-Hyll, Rinos-Re, Sika-thika, Teutana-tetane, Thanae-Zana, Vendo-Vend, etc.) but onomastics and ethnolinguistics in this area certainl need to be studied in much more detail and cautiously. The counter-Illyrian arguments inlcude the proposal of some linguists that Illyrian language was Centum, while Albanian is Satem (although athors like Noel Malcolm asserts that we actually do not know for certain if Illyrian was Centum, and if Messapic was Illylrian language at all).

The more recent counter-Illyrian argument is found in the DNA results, where it is supposed that the Illyrians were mainly R1a and I2a1b, while majority of Albanians are E1b1b/E-V13, just like some Pelasgians and Etruscans (as indicated in your post above). However, as no ethnicity is "pure", so to speak, nor has it ever been ( as haplogroups came before any ethnicites or nations were created), it is likely that even these ancient peoples we are taling about ( Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians etc) were a certain haplogourp mixture.

In that sense I have several questions:

1. How did we arrive at the conclusion that anciant Illyrians were mainly R1a and I2a1b? (what was the sample and the variables, not only for Illyrians for these haplogroup results)?

2. Is it possible that Ilylrians too had some E1b1b/E-V13, and to what extent?

3.Do the haplotype results suggest that Albanians existed in the Balkans at the same time as Illyrians ( or even before the Illrians were formed), what ancient people were they, and could they have mixed to some extent with Illyrians?

4. If we refute the pro-Illyrian tehory of the origin of Albanians, ad take the Thracian or Daco-Mysian one insted, we know that the Daco-Mysian territory corresponds to a large extend with modern Romania and the Vlach people in general. However, the controversy here is that while the Daco-Mysian proponents of Albanian oprigin see Vlachs as the ancestors of modern Albanians, the DNA shows that the Vlachs have dominantly the I2a1b haplotype, not the E-V13, like the majority of Albanians? What is the way to come around this little puzzle?

Best Regards

SoberBalkanite

 

[SoberBalkanite]

I just remembered one more question:

what was the dominant haplogroup among early Indo-Europen setlers?

 

[Trojet]

1. How did we arrive at the conclusion that anciant Illyrians were mainly R1a and I2a1b? (what was the sample and the variables, not only for Illyrians for these haplogroup results)?

2. Is it possible that Ilylrians too had some E1b1b/E-V13, and to what extent?

3.Do the haplotype results suggest that Albanians existed in the Balkans at the same time as Illyrians ( or even before the Illrians were formed), what ancient people were they, and could they have mixed to some extent with Illyrians?

4. If we refute the pro-Illyrian tehory of the origin of Albanians, ad take the Thracian or Daco-Mysian one insted, we know that the Daco-Mysian territory corresponds to a large extend with modern Romania and the Vlach people in general. However, the controversy here is that while the Daco-Mysian proponents of Albanian oprigin see Vlachs as the ancestors of modern Albanians, the DNA shows that the Vlachs have dominantly the I2a1b haplotype, not the E-V13, like the majority of Albanians? What is the way to come around this little puzzle?

Best Regards

SoberBalkanite

1. Nobody knows for sure what Y-DNA Illyrians carried. R1a and I2a1 would be the least likeliest, since they are not considered Balkan haplogroups and are associated with the Slavic nations. Although some subclades could've been in the Balkans at the time of Illyrians. Adding to that, I2a1 is the least diverse haplogroup in the Balkans, which would suggest a recent "founder effect". I would expect Maciamo has changed his views on this, since he proposed this theory 6 years ago based on present Y-DNA distribution.

2. I expect E-V13 would have been the dominant haplogroup among the Illyrians.

3. Yes. Haplogroup diversity among 3 main Albanian haplogroups (E-V13, R1b Balkan, J2b2) suggests that the ancestors of Albanians have been in the Balkans since even before the Illyrians appeared.

4. The likeliest Y-DNA for Illyrians would be the Balkan haplogroups, such as E-V13, R1b Balkan Cluster, J2b2, and probably some others in smaller percentages. Of course this is all speculation too but indeed the likeliest. We need ancient DNA from the time of Illyrians or prior to them appearing in the Balkans to know for sure, which we lack.