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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Phoenicians
    The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000 years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians).
    Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.
    Do you have the Source for this claim ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.
    I should have included T. I just forgot.

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    Post Where is the source of this information??

    It is very interesting!
    But i want to see your source!

    Where is the source of this information??

    This is your hypothesis?
    Last edited by iann_allein; 02-01-10 at 19:13. Reason: ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    It is very interesting!
    But i want to see your source!

    Where is the source of this information??

    This is your hypothesis?
    There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.

    Are you a scientist?
    Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
    Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
    Besides I do not know who you are?
    I ask because there are some problems.

    Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
    This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
    Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Why?
    Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    Are you a scientist?
    Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
    Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
    Besides I do not know who you are?
    I ask because there are some problems.

    Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
    This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
    Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Why?
    Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.
    Because, the same way some E sub-haplogroups are born in Greece, also some subclades of J2 are born in Greece, for example J2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    Are you a scientist?
    Yes.

    Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
    Because there are many people who are interested in that subject, and because some other websites are not always reliable, especially those that rarely update their information or ask real questions, like the Genographic Project.


    Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
    This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
    What's Europedia ? Nobody uses the term E3b anymore. It's over a year that it has been called E1b1b.


    Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Why?
    Where did you see that ? Haplogroup E* is definitely African, but I don't know if it still exists. It has plenty of subclades through, like E-V13 which is almost confined to Europe and thought to have appeared (or first become widespread) in northern Greece about 8,000 years ago. Please understand that E is not the same as E1b1b, just like R is not the same as R1b. The deeper the subclade, the more specific it becomes. Besides, the main subclades of E1b1b found in Europe have their origins explained in this website's main article about the history of haplogroups. Anything you think is wrong ? Please share.


    Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
    Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.
    Really doesn't matte to me. I wrote this in a geographic order, from west to east, not in a chronological order. Either way is fine. You could also list them alphabetically if you want.

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    I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
    I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


    Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



    I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
    but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

    Ok



    I see that you are not the author of this map.
    Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



    I'm sorry for my English
    Last edited by iann_allein; 03-01-10 at 20:11. Reason: i found this map

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    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
    I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


    Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



    I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
    but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

    Ok



    I see that you are not the author of this map.
    Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



    I'm sorry for my English

    i found this map but i ca not show it.




    This is the link but I separated the letters in order to publish the address.
    2qluxvl . p n g
    Last edited by iann_allein; 03-01-10 at 22:05.

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    Nice map, and to my limited knowledge of haplogroups it looks fine. I like the colours used, and short, spot on, description where they come from (on top).
    I mentioned the colours, because sometimes I have problems distinguishing yellow from light green, and few other combinations, in small chart circles. No problems here, almost like I picked the colours here, lol.

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    Post Strange ancient Egytians aADN?

    Hello Maciano,

    First, sorry for my bad english, I m french

    You say:
    The ancient Egyptians
    Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.
    You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...

    (replace ** by TT)
    h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4950/toutankamonetreine2h.jpg
    h**p://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6118/tomberamsesi02m.jpg
    h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3167/scribe01384x512.jpg (yes its eyes are blue)
    h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2094/ramsesenemies04.jpg
    h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/954/tomberamsesiu.jpg
    h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2575/nefertitit.jpg

    Except, but later after the first Egyptians dynasties, a mix with Semitic people and the short black Nubian people dynasty.

    And the Egyptians knew, too, to do the difference between them and their enemies...

    h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/420/ramssenemies01.jpg
    h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3903/ramsesenemies02.jpg
    h**p://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1364/toutankareposepied1a.jpg
    h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4254/toutankamonsandales2.jpg
    h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6228/toutankamoncoffre1a.jpg
    h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9044/toutankamoncoffre2rduit.jpg

    Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps). And IJK (Y-DNA) are the haplogroups downward to this North > South migrations...

    Because the white skin (and light eyes too) is only generate by the light phenomenon (sun) more rare, and this phenomenon occurs only in Europe and Northern Eurasia... And these North > South population movements have necessarily been important to be able to change skin color and appearance (nose fine and right, face shape, etc.) in a important proportion to the "Fertile Crescent" (Anatolie, The Levant, Mesopotamia) and North Africa. Or maybe totally inundate the autochthon population (if indigenous people existed? before 12/10 000 years ago).

    One of this South to North movements (maybe the laster and because surely there are several), dating surely to the last big cooler weather (but without ice cap) to 12000 years ago (last big cooler with ice cap date to 18 000 years ago).

    All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
    w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)

    Regards

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    PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
    that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).

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    Good points JPto.
    I would like to add that if Cro Magnons picked white skin gene from Neanderthals it could have happened in Middle East. Can't point to the source now, but I remember reading article showing that both species cohabited caves around Israel area 50 thousand years ago. When Cro Magnon moved into Europe 35KYA they might have been already white or at least not very dark.
    It would be nice one day to get genetic data in this regard and few others, even if it proves me wrong. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtoEurope View Post
    Hello Maciano,
    First, sorry for my bad english, I m french
    You say:
    You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...
    First of all this thread is only about Y-DNA, not mtdna. But just to correct you, mtDNA N arose about 70,000 years ago (have a look at the timeline), and we are talking about the ancient Egyptian civilisation, starting about 5,000 years ago. All the modern haplogroups and most subclades (both for mtDNA and Y-DNA) would have already existed from 5,000 to 2,000 years ago.

    Y-haplogroups I and R are almost certainly two of those that, if present at all, were insignificant in the ancient Egyptian population.

    Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls). Ancient and modern Egyptians and Near Easterners on the contrary were/are gracile and narrow faced with high skulls. Whether you base your comparison on ancient skeletons or ancient depictions of Egyptians, it shows that the Egyptian and Levantine population almost haven't changed at all over time in this regard.

    Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps).
    What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners.

    The first Cro-Magnons were probably dark-skinned, as opposed to white-skinned Neanderthals. Modern humans could have picke up a few genes for fair skin from Neanderthals, but whether this happened in Europe, the Middle-East or Central Asia is anyone's guess. It could have happened in the three regions. If it was only one, I would pick Central Asia, because this is where Y-haplogroups N, O, P, Q and R all came from, and white skin is present in all these populations (respectively, Siberians, East Asians, Central Asians, Native Americans and Europeans + some Middle Easterners and South Asians).

    All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
    w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)
    Regards
    Thanks, but I know this site well (and its owner). You may have noticed that I explain a lot of these things on this site too, notably here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtoEurope View Post
    PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
    that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).
    This is because of spammers. That's one way of discouraging them, or at least make their spam ads useless until they get deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is my own supposition based my knowledge of the modern Basque people. That's why I said "it is probable". If DNA had been conducted on the ancient, pre-Indo-European Basques proving that they indeed had dark hair and eyes, I would have said "it has been proved". I cannot see how they would have fair hair or eyes before the R1b Indo-European invasion.
    yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

    (13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

    Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

    http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistori...Indoeuroparrak


    11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

    A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

    Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.

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    "Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls)."
    Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
    "...Studies of ancient DNA indicate the point at which East Asian peoples came to predominate over Western Eurasian in Central Asia. In Kazakhstan there were Western Eurasian lineages prior to the 7th century BC, followed by East Asian lineages appearing..."

    "What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners."
    30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...

    bye

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    PS:

    The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking). The lasts representative of those Europeans peoples in the Eurasia steppes, are the Scythes. The first main people to have reversed this West > East flow in the Eurasia steppe in East > West flow, is a people interbreeding between Europeans and Asiatics... named the Turcs. And more recently and after 1400 years of Asiatics (turko-mongolians) domination in steppes, the flow is again reversed West to the East, for the Europeans, about the seventeenth century, with the Russian conquests, right down Pacific.

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    I think Bell Beakers were mixed.

    They belonged to haplogroups I2a, I2a1, I2b, and two neolithic haplogroups E-V13 and J2b.

    All of these are the first miners in the Sardinia. We still can find these haplogroups in Sardinia, together with G haplogroup, which represents later miners, after collapse of first metallurgy in Europe.

    But Bell Beakers were partially dinarics.

    Which racial phenotype, by which haplogroup was brought into the invader peoples and then in the invaded countries?

    Maybe J2b and E-V13 were dinarics as they are today in Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Greece. And I2* were dolichocephals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtoEurope View Post
    Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
    ...
    PS:
    The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking).
    According to anthropologist David Anthony in his book The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, steppe people of the Bug-Dniester and later Yamna culture were all low-skulled, very wide-faced Proto-Europoids (mixed European and Mongoloid traits). He also mentions that the early Yamna settlers in the Danube basin (3000-2600 BCE), in places like Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, were still the same Proto-Europoids, contrasting neatly with the gracile, high-skulled and narrow-faced people of "Old Europe".

    David Anthony is a well-respected specialist of Indo-European archaeology. As he is first and foremost a professor of anthropology, there is no doubt he can recognise anthropological features from skeletons.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPtoEurope
    30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...
    You forget that northern Europe was under a thick sheet of ice during the Ice Age, until 14,000 years ago. Only southern Europe was inhabitable, at roughly the same latitude as the Middle East and Central Asia. There is no reason to believe that fair pigmentation arose in Europe rather than in the Middle East or Central Asia. The northernmost inhabitable regions were actually in Central Asia, so it is more likely to have appeared over there. If fair skin first appeared in Europe, how did East Asians develop fair skin ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

    (13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

    Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

    http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistori...Indoeuroparrak


    11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

    A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

    Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.
    This site doesn't give clear information about the skeletons studied. What is their radiocarbon dating ? How many skeletons ? It doesn't look very scientific. Dates under the title "Neolithic" range from 2500 to 300 BCE, which is to say early Bronze Age to Iron Age. Your description is right in the middle of this "chapter" and refers to the modern incidence of R1b as a sign of "prehistoric origin". That doesn't mean anything. The Indo-Europeans could have arrived as early as 2500 BCE in Western Europe, although more probably around 2200-2000 BCE. Fair or red hair from that period onwards could be Indo-European.

    If you find clearly radiocarbon dated specimens of fair/red hair in Western Europe prior to 2500 BCE, please let me know.

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    The ancient Greek & Romanss

    => See post #3 below.


    What do you mean? Maciamo.

    The ancient Germanic people,
    The ancient Slavs 0r
    The ancient Indians?

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    Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
    Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
    not show any mongoloid trait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
    Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
    not show any mongoloid trait.
    This is because they didn't move straight from the steppe to North-West Europe (there were no air planes at the time ), but spent 500 years (roughly from 3000 to 2500 BCE) intermixing with other Europeans in the Danube basin before settling around the Alps, where they further mixed with the locals before continuing to Western and Northern Europe. This is why Europeans still vary a lot in term of autosomal DNA where Y-DNA is similar. The oldest population has had the most important phenotypic influence on modern people. Only genetic traits that were selected for their usefulness (e.g. lactose tolerance) or aesthetic value (fair pigmentation) spread quickly. For the rest we are not so strongly genetically connected with the people who lived in the Pontic steppes 5000 years ago.

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