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Thread: Ancient European DNA

  1. #1
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    Post Ancient European DNA



    Importance notice : this thread is no longer updated. Please check this page for all the ancient European Y-DNA and mtDNA discovered to date.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here is a summary of the samples of ancient DNA from Europe tested so far.

    Ancient Greek DNA

    mtDNA from Grave Circle B in Mycenae (3,600 years old)

    - 1 haplogroup H2
    - 1 haplogroup U5a1
    - 2 haplogroup UK


    Ancient British DNA

    Cheddar Man (9,000 years old, England) => mtDNA haplogroup U5a

    Medieval Anglo-Saxon DNA

    Tracing the Phylogeography of Human Populations in Britain Based on 4th-11th Century mtDNA Genotypes

    mtDNA

    - 15 haplogroup H
    - 1 haplogroup I
    - 4 haplogroup J
    - 1 haplogroup K
    - 4 haplogroup T1
    - 5 haplogroup T2
    - 1 haplogroup T4
    - 1 haplogroup T5
    - 4 haplogroup U5a1
    - 2 haplogroup U5a1a
    - 2 haplogroup U5b
    - 2 haplogroup V
    - 2 haplogroup W
    - 2 haplogroup X
    - 2 haplogroup IWX

    Ancient Celtic DNA

    Ötzi the Iceman (3,000 years old - Austro-Italian border) => mtDNA haplogroup K1

    Ancient Basque DNA

    Late Antiquity Basque DNA (1,400 years old)

    Y-DNA

    - 4 haplogroup I2a
    - 23 haplogroup R1b


    Ancient German DNA

    Lichtenstein Cave Bronze-Age Family (3,000 years old, Lower Saxony) :

    Y-DNA

    - 4 haplogroup I2b*
    - 1 haplogroup R1a
    - 1 haplogroup R1b

    MtDNA

    - 17 haplogroup H
    - 5 haplogroup J (including 1 J1b1)
    - 5 haplogroup T2
    - 9 haplogroup U (including 1 U5b)


    Eneolithic Corded Ware from Eulau (4,600 years old, Saxony)

    Y-DNA

    - 3 haplogroup R1a

    MtDNA

    - 1 haplogroup H
    - 1 haplogroup I
    - 1 haplogroup K1a2
    - 3 haplogroup K1b
    - 1 haplogroup U5b
    - 2 haplogroup X2


    Viking/Norse DNA

    Evidence of Authentic DNA from Danish Viking Age Skeletons Untouched by Humans for 1,000 Years

    MtDNA

    => 18 Viking-age skeletons from Galgedil & Kongemarken :

    - 8 haplogroup H
    - 2 haplogroup I
    - 1 haplogroup J
    - 1 haplogroup K
    - 2 haplogroup T2
    - 1 haplogroup U5a1a
    - 1 haplogroup U7
    - 1 haplogroup X2c

    => 21 Iron-Age skeletons from Bøgebjergård & Skovgaarde :

    - 7 haplogroup H
    - 2 haplogroup I
    - 2 haplogroup J
    - 2 haplogroup K
    - 1 haplogroup R0a
    - 1 haplogroup U2e
    - 1 haplogroup U3a
    - 1 haplogroup U5b1
    - 1 haplogroup V


    - Sven II Estridsen (c.1020-1074), the last Viking king of Denmark => mtDNA haplogroup H
    Last edited by Maciamo; 10-10-11 at 15:53.

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    The mummies that was found in Germany (Corded Ware Culture) belong to R1a1 (SRY10831.2)

    What is the difference between R1a (sry10831.2) and R1a1 (M198)?
    That is to say, where there is R1a (sry10831.2)?
    I know that R1a1 (M198) is very common in Asia: (India, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan), in the Eastern Europe: (Hungary, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus,), In the Scandinavian countries: (Norway, Sweden), but R1a ( sry10831.2) is a puzzle. Where you can find this haplogroup? Which country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    The mummies that was found in Germany (Corded Ware Culture) belong to R1a1 (SRY10831.2)

    What is the difference between R1a (sry10831.2) and R1a1 (M198)?
    That is to say, where there is R1a (sry10831.2)?
    I know that R1a1 (M198) is very common in Asia: (India, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan), in the Eastern Europe: (Hungary, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus,), In the Scandinavian countries: (Norway, Sweden), but R1a ( sry10831.2) is a puzzle. Where you can find this haplogroup? Which country?
    Almost all R1a people are now called R1a1a. The nomenclature changes year after year as new mutations are found. You could consider that R1a, R1a1 and R1a1a is basically the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Almost all R1a people are now called R1a1a. The nomenclature changes year after year as new mutations are found. You could consider that R1a, R1a1 and R1a1a is basically the same thing.

    Are you sure?
    We know that haplogroup E has many subgroups.
    Can we say that there is no difference between E1b1b and E2?
    I do not think ...
    There are many other examples. Haplogroup Q..

    It does not work. It means that Indians, Pakistanis, Kyrgyz, Poles, Ukrainians, Scandinavians, and even the islanders are all connected. I can not believe it ....
    Are you sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    Are you sure?
    We know that haplogroup E has many subgroups.
    Can we say that there is no difference between E1b1b and E2?
    I do not think ...
    There are many other examples. Haplogroup Q..

    It does not work. It means that Indians, Pakistanis, Kyrgyz, Poles, Ukrainians, Scandinavians, and even the islanders are all connected. I can not believe it ....
    Are you sure?
    I am sure. R1a expanded to Europe and Asia from the steppes less than 5000 years ago. The mutations between R1a, R1a1 and R1a1a (2010 nomenclature) happened well before that. R1a1a is over 12,000 years old.

    New subclades were identified recently and are named R1a1a1 to R1a1a7. The distribution isn't very clear yet, except for R1a1a7 which is most common in Slavic countries.

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    It is written that R1A is Indo-European, but .......
    An American said that R1a was turkic because 50%-20% of descendants of the Khazars (jews aschenazi) belongs to R1a. We know that 60% of Kyrgyz, 50% Altaians belong to R1A. And About 60 or 50% of Hungarians belong to R1a.
    How can we explain that?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Ashkenazi Jews are not from Kazhakstan

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    Are you sure?


    It does not work. It means that Indians, Pakistanis, Kyrgyz, Poles, Ukrainians, Scandinavians, and even the islanders are all connected. I can not believe it ....
    Are you sure?
    Why is it so hard to believe that these peoples, (actually only R1a part of their populations) had same grand, grand, gr..., father 13 000 years ago? Most of their genomes is a mixture of mother side with their mothers and fathers bringing huge varieties of other gens, to explain differences in looks and behaviours.
    If you go farther back we might find one common ancestor to all people in Africa some 200 000 years ago. Can you believe this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    It is written that R1A is Indo-European, but .......
    An American said that R1a was turkic because 50%-20% of descendants of the Khazars (jews aschenazi) belongs to R1a. We know that 60% of Kyrgyz, 50% Altaians belong to R1A. And About 60 or 50% of Hungarians belong to R1a.
    How can we explain that?
    You can't, mostly because the information source you have is wrong.

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    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You can't, mostly because the information source you have is wrong.
    Why my source of information is wrong?
    My source of information is wikipedia and some other sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Ashkenazi Jews are not from Kazhakstan

    khazars ! not Kazakhs!
    Ok


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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    Why my source of information is wrong?
    My source of information is wikipedia and some other sites.
    For starters show me where did you find 50 to 20% R1a in Ashkenazi Jews.

    Mind that Jews lived in Poland, Ukraine and Russia for at least 600 years. This is the place where they could have picked up some of the R1a haplogroup. Just in Poland there were 3 million Ashkenazi Jews before WW2.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Jews_in_Poland

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
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    I would confirm anything substantial posted on WiKI these days. A number of their population genetics sections have been invaded by hacks and off-the-wall types. Some of the information presented is totally incorrect or lacking necessary qualification. Review the research studies sited on Wikipedia DIRECTLY before formulating any conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    Why my source of information is wrong?
    My source of information is wikipedia and some other sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    It is written that R1A is Indo-European, but .......
    An American said that R1a was turkic because 50%-20% of descendants of the Khazars (jews aschenazi) belongs to R1a. We know that 60% of Kyrgyz, 50% Altaians belong to R1A. And About 60 or 50% of Hungarians belong to R1a.
    How can we explain that?
    R1a is originally the main haplogroup of steppe people. It is possible that R1a was already present in Central Asia before the Indo-European expansion (I mean all the way from Eastern Europe to the Himalayas). But it is just as likely that R1a in Turkic people is of Indo-European origin. There is undeniable evidence that the Tarim mummies from Xinjiang were Indo-European (bronze weapons, tartan woollen clothes, fair hair) and yet the modern Uighur who have inherited of over 50% of IE haplogroups (R1a + R1b as well as mtDNA H, T, U3, U4, W and X2) are Turkic speakers. In Central Asia IE-speakers and Turkic speakers are found side by side, often mixed, and historically created alliances with each others. Anatolia itself, one of the oldest IE-speaking regions, and Greek-speaking until the end of Byzantine rule, became Turkish (and therefore Turkic) speaking without a major population replacement.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    H1c

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    Is there a good Internet source describing differences and similarities, culturally and genetically through history between Huns, Turks, Tatars and Mongols?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1a is originally the main haplogroup of steppe people. It is possible that R1a was already present in Central Asia before the Indo-European expansion (I mean all the way from Eastern Europe to the Himalayas). But it is just as likely that R1a in Turkic people is of Indo-European origin. There is undeniable evidence that the Tarim mummies from Xinjiang were Indo-European (bronze weapons, tartan woollen clothes, fair hair) and yet the modern Uighur who have inherited of over 50% of IE haplogroups (R1a + R1b as well as mtDNA H, T, U3, U4, W and X2) are Turkic speakers. In Central Asia IE-speakers and Turkic speakers are found side by side, often mixed, and historically created alliances with each others. Anatolia itself, one of the oldest IE-speaking regions, and Greek-speaking until the end of Byzantine rule, became Turkish (and therefore Turkic) speaking without a major population replacement.
    The Indo-Europeans were assimilated by the Turkic peoples?

    I have a question.
    To which haplogroup belong Turkic peoples ?
    Can we call a haplogroup Turkic ...?
    Maybe Haplogroup Q, N or...?
    Q1b (M378) Found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews>>>> descendants of Khazars( khazars were a turkic people).
    I noticed that almost all Turkic peoples (4% -70%) belong to this haplogroup.
    Yes there are lots of subgroups, but...

    Which is proto-Turkish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Is there a good Internet source describing differences and similarities, culturally and genetically through history between Huns, Turks, Tatars and Mongols?
    good question .. Dont you like Wiki?

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    The Indo-Europeans were assimilated by the Turkic peoples?

    I have a question.
    To which haplogroup belong Turkic peoples ?
    Can we call a haplogroup Turkic ...?
    Maybe Haplogroup Q, N or...?
    Q1b (M378) Found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews>>>> descendants of Khazars( khazars were a turkic people).
    I noticed that almost all Turkic peoples (4% -70%) belong to this haplogroup.
    Yes there are lots of subgroups, but...

    Which is proto-Turkish?
    Turkic people are ethnically mixed - in fact some of the most mixed people belonging to a same linguistic group. You can see that by the way they look, even within a same tribe. They have Y-DNA R1a, Q*, L, K, J, H, G, F, C3 and others (among these others, the Bashkirs, Turkmen, Nogais and Kumyks, all Turkic speakers, were reported by Lobov et al., Spencer Wells et al. and Marchani et al. to have respectively 47%, 37%, 25% and 20% of R1b).

    Turkic language could be a sort of creole of IE and Altaic (e.g. Mongolian) languages. But I am not a specialist of Turkic languages and peoples.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

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    Quote Originally Posted by transmitter View Post
    good question .. Dont you like Wiki?
    The info is all over Internet, Wiki or not. One has to read through, than use a sieve to separate relevant and correct stuff from wrong and misleading. And this is the toughest part, usually I use statistics in my head and common sense, and throw it against any history knowledge I have and consider right. It takes lot of time and research. I was hoping someone did this work for me already.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
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    neolithic nomads or farmers

    Below is the 2010 T1 haplotype map which shows the 2 major euro subclades

    http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAP...mapupdated.png

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    more new info on SPAIN




    http://cerbere.ca/public/PATTERSON2012.PDF

    Northern European gene flow into Spain

    While investigating the genetic history of Spain, we discovered
    an interesting signal of admixture involving Sardinia and
    northern Europe. We made a data set by merging genotypes
    from samples from the population reference sample (POPRES)
    (Nelson et al. 2008), HGDP (Li et al. 2008), and HapMap
    Phase 3 (International Hapmap 3 Consortium 2010). We
    ran our three-population test on triples of populations using
    Spain as a target (admixed population). We had 137 Spanish
    individuals in our sample. With Sardinian fixed as a source,
    we find a clear signal using almost any population from northern
    Europe. Table 4 gives the top f3-statistics with corresponding
    Z-scores. The high score for the Russian and Adygei is
    likely to be partially confounded with the effect discussed in
    the section on flow from Asia into Europe (below).
    A geographical structure is clear, with the largest magnitude
    f3-statistics seen for source populations that are northern
    European or Slavic. The Z-score is unsurprisingly more
    significant for populations with a larger sample size. (Note
    that positive Z-scores are not meaningful here.) We were
    concerned that the Slavic scores might be confounded by
    a central Asian component and therefore decided to concentrate
    our attention on Ireland as a surrogate for the ancestral
    population as they have a substantial sample size (n = 62).

    Spain: rolloff

    We applied rolloff to Spain using Ireland and Sardinians as
    the reference populations. In Figure 7C we show a rolloff
    curve. The rolloff of signed LD out to about 2 cM is clear and
    gives an admixture age of 3600 6 400 YBP (the standard
    error was computed using a block jackknife with a block size
    of 5 cM).

    We have detected here a signal of gene flow from
    populations related to present-day northern Europeans into
    Spain around 2000 B.C. We discuss a likely interpretation.
    At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed “bellbeakers”
    believed to correspond to a population spread across
    Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize that we are seeing
    here a genetic signal of the “Bell-Beaker culture” (Harrison
    1980). Initial cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have
    been from South to North, but the full story may be complex.
    Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from
    Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia (Czebreszuk
    2003); this “reflux” model is broadly concordant with our genetic
    results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests
    that this reverse flow may have been accompanied by substantial
    population movement. (See Figures 8, 9, and 10.)

    It is important to point out that we are not detecting gene
    flow from Germanic peoples (Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths) into
    Spain even though it is known that they migrated into Iberia
    around 500 A.D.
    We believe such migration must have
    occurred, based on the historical record (and perhaps is
    biasing our admixture date to be too recent), but any
    accompanying gene flow must have occurred at a lower
    level than the much earlier flow we discuss.

  23. #23
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
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    it confirms some HLA genes surveys about Algerians, Spaniards and Basques, showing among the late two a north component OR RATHER 2 north components, 1 atlantic and 1 N-C european; the Bell Beakers story is linked by some historians to a foggy "celto-ligurian" stage of indo-europeanization of W-Europe - hard to be too affirmative, but the date (3000 BC) is coherent with BB and common sense (linguistic, archeology) -
    Thanks for the digest - kouskit c'hweg! (sleep agreably)

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    Country: France



    I think nevertheless that "my" atlantic component could be older and just a back migration along with ruler newcomers

  25. #25
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    I am waiting for Varna necropolis,

    I think is the key, it is exactly before arsenic bronze entrance,

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