What Europeans think of each other

[^ lynx ^]

More exactly, northern Spain has become now richer than some southern french regions. Thanks to European integration. Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.

World GPD in 1983:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...-gdp&date=1983

Spain was the 12th largest economy in the world by then and we didn't get into the CEE until 1984/85. Our situation wasn't too much different before the 80's. All that despite not having the help of "Uncle Tom" ($$$$) after the great war... unlike your country.

Yes, yes, we were almost a third-world country definetly.

[Grizzly]

World GPD in 1983:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...-gdp&date=1983

Spain was the 12th largest economy in the world by then and we didn't get into the CEE until 1984/85.

I won't make a battle of numbers, but a quick research shows Venezuela, Puerto Rico, front of Spain in the 70's.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...er-capita-1973

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...pita&date=1970


I don't take the 60's. It would be too outrageous (Trinidad Tobago and Libya were before Spain).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...pita&date=1965


Conclusion : like I have said, before the 80's, Spain was rather a third-world country. It is not a shame, it was not alone, but facts are facts. If Spain was so rich, millions of Spanish people would not have come in France to find work and money.

[^ lynx ^]

You're being ridiculously cherry picking now. (Puerto Rico became part of USA in 1898... and you weren't talking about the 60's in your prior message, Venezuela has oil but most of venezulan people don't really get that amount of money at the end of the year, check out their GINI and you will learn some things). Qatar has one the highest GPD per capita today but still that country is full of poverty.

So your statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country" remains a pile of bullshit. I sense that your butt hurt for some strange reason but I fail to see why. PMS?

[Grizzly]

you weren't talking about the 60's in your prior message

Sorry to quote myself :

Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.

The 60's should not be before the 80's ?

Venezuela has oil but most of venezulan people don't really get that amount of money at the end of the year

Do you think that it was so much different in the dictature of Franco ?

So your statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country" remains a pile of bullshit.

No. It is the truth according to the economical and sociological evidences : Spain was a country of departure of a lot of emigrants to France who wanted to flee the misery. But you are not obliged to admit the facts, above all if they hurt your national pride.

[^ lynx ^]

HDI - Humand Development Index from 1970 to 2010. HDI is a much more accurate index for this matter:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

There it goes your pathetic ******** attempt. Take care of your PMS.

[Wilhelm]

Sorry to quote myself :

The 60's should not be before the 80's ?


Do you think that it was so much different in the dictature of Franco ?


No. It is the truth according to the economical and sociological evidences : Spain was a country of departure of a lot of emigrants to France who wanted to flee the misery. But you are not obliged to admit the facts, above all if they hurt your national pride.

What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

[^ lynx ^]

I'm not denying the departure of many spaniards by that time. I'm denying the statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country". There are about 500.000 italian immigrants in Germany today... but nobody can seriously believe that Italy is a third-world country.

You're either senile or can't read properly.

[^ lynx ^]

What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

He's obviusly trying to disrupt. There's something hurting this guy's butt I don't know what or why... it's starting to intriguing me.

[Grizzly]

HDI - Humand Development Index from 1970 to 2010. HDI is a much more accurate index for this matter:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

There it goes your pathetic ******** attempt. Take care of your PMS.

I have taken your own source. It is not my fault if you self-destroy your arguments...For your second source, you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate.

[Grizzly]

What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

By third-world, I mean a country where the people are obliged to flee to find work and money because this country is not rich enough to provide it by its own means. This is a very subjective definition, I know.

[^ lynx ^]

You have taken my own source?

HDI from 1970 to 2010 for France, Spain and Venezuela:



Spain and France are both bold-blue.
Venezuela is the bold-turquoise line.

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

I guess you enjoy embarrassing yourself.

[Grizzly]

There are about 500.000 italian immigrants in Germany today... but nobody can seriously believe that Italy is a third-world country.

You're either senile or can't read properly.

Italy is no longer a third-world country now, but at the period of this immigration in Germany, yes, we could say that Italy had a lot of "third-world" features or living standards.

[^ lynx ^]

By third-world, I mean a country where the people are obliged to flee to find work and money because this country is not rich enough to provide it by its own means. This is a very subjective definition, I know.

'Entrepreneur' means little in France

Start-up hopefuls find a friendlier business environment in the U.S. than in their homeland, which favors larger employers.

Anu Partanen, contributor
Last Updated: April 9, 2009: 9:47 AM ET


NEW YORK (Fortune) -- An e-mail message with the provocative subject line, "Entrepreneurs: France's Newest Export," arrived at Fortune's offices one March evening at about 6:30 pm Eastern Time. (That's 12:30 am Paris time.) "More and more U.S. technology companies are founded by French entrepreneurs," it read.

France, of course, is well known for many of the finer things in life -- its cuisine, its wines, its culture -- but it is not notorious for its prowess in technological innovation.

As it turns out, there are some 400 to 500 French companies operating in California's Silicon Valley, according to French trade groups, among them are Talend, a data integration company founded in France in 2005 which now has offices in Los Altos, Calif. (and the UK, Germany, Belgium) and boasts clients such as Yahoo!, Virgin Mobile, Honda, Sony and the United Nations. VirtualLogix, a French virtualization software start-up based in Silicon Valley, has received financing from Cisco Systems, Intel and Motorola. Qualys, another privately held company offering network security software as a service to companies such as eBay, Cisco and Hewlett Packard, was started by two French entrepreneurs and is now based in Redwood Shores, Calif.

But international business experts suggest these success stories may be a result of -- despite the word's French origin -- unfriendly conditions for entrepreneurs.

"Overall France has been much more friendly to big firms than it has been to start-ups," says Isabelle Lescent-Giles, an associate professor of international business at San José State University whose studies compare business cultures in Europe, U.S. and Asia. "Launching a start-up in France is like playing Russian roulette in some ways."

Failure is not tolerated in French business culture as it is in the U.S., Lescent-Giles says, and both the legal and social consequences of bankruptcy are much more dire in France. The government dominates the economy, and the business elite is almost exclusively recruited from the elite schools, the Grandes écoles.

When the rogue trader Jérôme Kerviel, for example, lost $7.2 billion in the stock market for one of France's largest banks, Société Générale, last year, many local commentators seemed more puzzled by the fact that Kerviel -- who had not attended any of the elite schools -- had managed to make it to the trading floor in the first place, rather than by his ability to lose so much money without anyone noticing.

All this has created a culture of steady careers in big firms rather than of risky innovation in start-ups.

Indeed, some French entrepreneurs have moved to the U.S. in order to seek their fame and fortune in technology, including Eric Benhamou, a serial entrepreneur and an ex-CEO of Palm, and Jean-Louis Gassée, a one time president of computer products at Apple and the founder of Be Inc., the creator of Be operating system.

The business world may see more entrepreneurs coming out of France in coming years, but only because the newest generation of young adults -- sometimes known as millennials or Generation Y -- in general tend to be more interested in start-ups and less keen to work in large institutions.

The young French are no exception: They are much more international than the previous generations and are clearly more prone to starting their own companies.

Another factor may help fuel French entrepreneurship: France traditionally produces a lot of engineers who excel in mathematics and graphics, two skill sets that play into some of the hottest areas in tech right now: gaming and algorithm-driven programming (think Google and other search engines).

But some of the French companies making it in the Valley say they are only now reaping the efforts of years of hard work, aided, in part, by a close-knit network of French executives in the tech industry.

Talend is one of the companies benefiting from such ties. In January it secured $12 million in its third round of investments, going against the economic tide. The round brought in more than just money -- one of the main investors was the global investment giant Balderton Capital, and one of its general partners, Frenchman Bernard Liautaud, joined Talend's board.

The current economic downturn is of course challenging the French companies as well, even though the crisis has been slower to arrive in France. But the biggest advantage the French entrepreneurs might have vis-à-vis their American counterparts might be the lessons learned from their own culture.

After all, if a start-up has managed to survive the French business culture, making it in the U.S. might not be so hard after all.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/08/tech...neurs.fortune/

Welcome to the third-world, mate.

[Grizzly]

You have taken my own source?

You know well that I was talking about "nationmaster.com", the source that you have posted. And like I have already said, for your second source (hdr), you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate with my initial post.

So, sorry to quote you :

You're either senile or can't read properly.

[^ lynx ^]

Italy is no longer a third-world country now, but at the period of this immigration in Germany, yes, we could say that Italy had a lot of "third-world" features or living standards.

These 500.000 immigrants are very recent...

You know well that I was talking about "nationmaster.com", the source that you have posted. And like I have already said, for your second source (hdr), you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate with my initial post.

That source shows the development data for 70-80-90 and 2000, and in EVERYONE of those decades we are almost at the same level of your country and far above Venezuela. I see that you aren't either senile or can't read... you are plain stupid. :S

[Grizzly]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/08/tech...neurs.fortune/

Welcome to the third-world, mate.

I'm sorry, but neither Foxnews, nor CNN are "academic" sources.

[Carlitos]

"In the 80 Spain a third world country?, how awful!, maybe if some European countries along with USA had not consented to a dictatorship in Spain for 40 years, many Spanish people should not have emigrated to France to make money, but of course it is better not get into political issues of neighboring countries and let them rot in a 40-year dictatorship, one less competitor.

[^ lynx ^]

I'm sorry, but neither Foxnews, nor CNN are "academic" sources.

Seeing your level of "culture", CNN can certainly feel relieve at that comment.

[Grizzly]

These 500.000 immigrants are very recent...

Germany had an Italian immigration in the 50's-60's, but this recent immigration does not seem to be an economical immigration, like it was for the Portugal, Italy or Spain in France between 1850 and the 80's.

we are almost at the same level of your country and far above Venezuela.

Not according to nationmaster, your own source. I'm sorry.

BTW, I won't comment all you picked-up charts, because I have said that I won't make a battle of numbers. The indicators can be very different from a study to another. The facts are that Spanish people had to move to flee the misery. It is not my opinion, it is the History. If you don't know this word, you can begin by this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History


If you can't do so, it is that you aren't either senile or can't read, but just plain stupid.

[Grizzly]

"In the 80 Spain a third world country?

No, before the 80's. Spain has been admitted in the UE in 1986, and if I don't mistake, was candidate after the fall of the dictature.

if some European countries along with USA had not consented to a dictatorship in Spain for 40 years

Irrelevant. Spanish immigration in France has began from about the mid-19th century.

[^ lynx ^]

Not according to nationmaster, your own source. I'm sorry.

BTW, I won't comment all you picked-up charts, because I have said that I won't make a battle of numbers. The indicators can be very different from a study to another. The facts are that Spanish people had to move to flee the misery. It is not my opinion, it is the History. If you don't know this word, you can begin by this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History

I've already explained to you the data from nation master. And I'm going to repeat AGAIN: I have never denyed that many spaniards migrated by that time, I have denyed your statement about Spain being a almost third-world country before the 80's, did you understand now or are you trisomic?



The data showed in the HDI charts shows that Spain was no near the third world... we were far above Venezuela and all those countries you took from nationmaster, and practically tied with your country.

PS- Italians have migrated to Germany far beyond the 50's and 60's... Just like frenchs are migrating now to the USA.

[Grizzly]

I've already explained to you the data from nation master. And I'm going to repeat AGAIN: I have never denyed that many spaniards migrated by that time, I have denyed your statement about Spain being a almost third-world country before the 80's, did you understand now or are you trisomic?

And I have already answered you : the fact that according to your own source (become now a trap for you...), countries like Libya, Trinidad and Tobago, Urugay or Jamaica... were before Spain in the 60's show clearly that Spain could almost be considered as a third-word country. And the fact that adult people in all classes of a country need to move in the foreign countries to find work and money is a typical third-world feature. It is not outrageous. Just facts. Did you understand now, or are you trisomic ?

PS- Italians have migrated to Germany far beyond the 50's and 60's... Just like frenchs are migrating now to the USA.

No, the first real waves of the Italian immigrants were in the 50-60's, to work in the industrial basins (especially Ruhr). I don't know about the recent immigration, but the first is clearly economical. Nothing to do with some young French from the upper-classes who try to increase professional experience in US for their CV, and come back to France.

[^ lynx ^]

And I have already answered you : the fact that countries like Libya, Trinidad and Tobago, Urugay or Jamaica... were before Spain show clearly that Spain could almost be considered as a third-word country. And the fact that people of a country need to move in the foreign countries to find work and money is a typical third-world feature. It is not outrageous. Just facts. Did you understand now, or are you trisomic ?

None of those countries were above Spain in Humand Development. Again, there are frenchs migrating to the USA now... so by your logic your country is also in the third-world. And again, Kuwait, Qatar, and United Arab Emirates are above France in gdp per capita now.. so I guess that makes all of our countries part of the third world.

No, the first real waves of the Italian immigrants were in the 50-60's, to work in the industrial basins (especially Ruhr). I don't know about the recent immigration, but the first is clearly economical. Nothing to do with some young French from the upper-classes who try to increase professional experience in US for their CV, and come back to France.

The first waves yes... but not the lastest. And those young frenchs? No, they aren't going back to France. Read the article again.

[Wilhelm]

There are far more Brits and Germans in Spain than the other way around, so what ? This is not a criteria for being a third-world country.

[Carlitos]

No, before the 80's. Spain has been admitted in the UE in 1986, and if I don't mistake, was candidate after the fall of the dictature.




Irrelevant. Spanish immigration in France has began from about the mid-19th century.

Since 1814, with the departure of the French style, started the phenomenon of exile or emigration policy due to political repression or broader groups of Spanish. The following were liberal groups, whose fate also was France or England


The civil war of 1936-1939 gave rise to the Republican exile incomparably more numerous, that was distributed to Europe and Latin America.

Spanish emigration to France.

Causes of Source Areas

It was a popular destination for migrants. In 1911, 100,000 lived in France Spanish.
During World War 1 work performed migrants who could not attend the French for being drafted into the army. Between 1915 and 1919 moved 300,000, of which only half returned to Spain. Spanish In 1920, 254,000 lived in France.


Source areas

Areas near the border: Basque Country, Navarra and Catalonia.

Galicia. During the war rather than move to Argentina went to France.


What Mrs Merkel said these days: we must work together and be supportive.

I do not offend their words, because Spain is a country that has influenced and helped create the world we live in today and a few years, decades or centuries of hard times are nothing compared to what we have been and will not we call slaves and revival of our ashes a phoenix; and of course with the help of France and England will be difficult in any case with our German friends, who have always been closer to us.