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Thread: Oldest European cities

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    Post Oldest European cities



    Here is a list of towns and cities in Europe that were founded at least 3000 years ago (prior to 1000 BCE). The list is of course not exhaustive. Feel free to complete it if you have additional information. Abandonned/destroyed cities are ok too.

    I have added the probable main haplogroup(s) of the people who founded the city.

    1. 7,000 BCE : Choirokoitia (Cyprus) => G2a, J2 and E1b1b
    2. 6,500 BCE : Sesklo (Thessaly, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    3. 6,000 BCE : Starčevo (Serbia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    4. 5,500 BCE : Pločnik (Serbia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    5. 5,000 BCE : Varna (Bulgaria) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    6. 5,000 BCE : Hallstatt (Austria) => E1b1b, G2a and J2 (and I2b ?)
    7. 5,000 BCE : Bratislava (Slovakia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2 (and I2b ?)
    8. 4,800 BCE : Dimini (Thessaly, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    9. c. 4,500 BCE : Lerna (Peloponnese, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    10. 4,500 BCE : Glauberg (Hesse, Germany) => E1b1b, G2a and J2 (and I2b ?)
    11. 4,000 BCE : Plovdiv (Bulgaria) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    12. 4,000 BCE : Phaistos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    13. 3,900 BCE : Michelsberg (Baden, Germany) => E1b1b, G2a and J2 (and I2b ?)
    14. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    15. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    16. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    17. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    18. 3,200 BCE : Skara Brae (Scotland) => G2a and I2b
    19. 3,000 BCE : Troy (Turkey) => R1b and J2
    20. 3,000 BCE : Myrtos Pyrgos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    21. 3,000 BCE : Akrotiri (Cyprus) => , G2a, J2 and E1b1b
    22. 3,000 BCE : Athens (Greece) => E1b1b, G2a, I2, J2
    23. 2,700 BCE : Knossos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    24. 2,500 BCE : Kastri, (Kythera, Greece) => J2
    25. 2,300 BCE : Gournia (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    26. 2,300 BCE : Manika (Euboea, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    27. 2,000 BCE : Mantua (Italy) => E1b1b G2a, I2a
    28. 1,900 BCE : Mycenae (Greece) => R1a (or R1b)
    29. 1,900 BCE : Mallia (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    30. 1,900 BCE : Kato Zakros (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    31. 1,600 BCE : Hagia Triada (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    32. 1,600 BCE : Chania (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    33. 1,400 BCE : Larnaca (Cyprus) => G2a, J2 and E1b1b
    34. 1,300 BCE : Heuneburg (Württemberg, Germany) => R1b
    35. 1,200 BCE : Lisbon (Portugal) => G2a and I2 and R1b
    36. 1,100 BCE : Cadiz (Spain) => J2, E1b1b, G2a
    37. 1,100 BCE : Chios (North Aegean, Greece) => J2, E1b1b (and R1b ?)
    38. 1,000 BCE : Würzburg (Bavaria, Germany) => R1b


    The oldest towns outside the Aegean follow the Neolithic expansion of haplogroup E-V13 and J2 from Thessaly along the Danube basin (see map below). Unsurprisingly E-V13 is most commonly found from northern Greece to Serbia, with Kosovo peaking at 45% of the population. It reaches 19% in Macedonian Greeks, 23% in Albania, 24% in Serbia, and 40% in the Sesklo/Dimini region of Thessaly.

    Haplogroup T originated in the Horn of Africa, like E1b1b and probably arrived in Europe through Thessaly with E1b1b. Its highest incidence in Europe is in Serbia (7%), probably due to an early founder effect among the early farmers in the region. Haplogroup T averages 2% along the Danube (up to Austria), but is hardly found in North-West Europe.



    EDIT : here is a list of late Neolithic to early Bronze Age fortified villages and small towns from Iberia.

    1. c. 3,500 BCE : Leceia (Estremadura, Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    2. c. 3,200 BCE : Los Millares (Andalusia, Spain) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    3. c. 3,000 BCE : Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão (North Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    4. c. 3,000 BCE : Almizaraque (Andalusia, Spain) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    5. c. 2,800 BCE : Zambujal (Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    6. c. 2,600 BCE : Vila Nova de São Pedro (Estremadura, Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    7. c. 2,500 BCE : Santa Justa (Algarve, Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    8. c. 2,500 BCE : Monte da Tumba (Setubal, Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    9. c. 2,400 BCE : Pragança (Estremadura, Portugal) => J2, G2a and E1b1b
    10. c. 1,800 BCE : Antas (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    11. c. 1,800 BCE : El Argar (Murcia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    12. c. 1,800 BCE : Lugarico Viejo (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a2 and R1b ?
    13. c. 1,800 BCE : Ifre (Murcia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    14. c. 1,800 BCE : Zapata (Murcia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    15. c. 1,800 BCE : Puntarrón Chico (Murcia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    16. c. 1,800 BCE : Cabezo Redondo (Murcia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    17. c. 1,800 BCE : Gatas (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    18. c. 1,800 BCE : Cerro de la Virgen de Orce (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    19. c. 1,800 BCE : Cerro de la Encina (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    20. c. 1,700 BCE : Cuesta del Negro (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    21. c. 1,550 BCE : Fuente Álamo (Andalusia, Spain) => E1b1b, G2a, J2, I2a and R1b ?
    Last edited by Maciamo; 27-11-11 at 15:12.

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    Thumbs up

    And then there's Goslar im Harz which might not be the oldest city in Europe but is certainly is old enough (and well preserved) to impress anyone into a 2-week coma.

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    Wow! This is amazing information... Thanks for sharing.

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    The oldest Musical instruments >>>> Greystones, Ireland

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    Good job, Maciamo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by javonoL21 View Post
    The oldest Musical instruments >>>> Greystones, Ireland
    Nope. The oldest musical instrument so far is a 35,000 year-old flute found in the Hohle Fels cave in southern Germany.

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    Wikipedia has no academic creditability, lol

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    I believe that the grooved ware people had villages such as Skara Brae in the Boyne Valley as well as on Orkney on the British Isles dated to 6000 BC. These were quite sofisticated cultures and way beyond what one may normally think of a Neolithic society. Similar to the ancient sites of Meso america and South America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesarasmile View Post
    I believe that the grooved ware people had villages such as Skara Brae in the Boyne Valley as well as on Orkney on the British Isles dated to 6000 BC. These were quite sofisticated cultures and way beyond what one may normally think of a Neolithic society. Similar to the ancient sites of Meso america and South America.
    Could you provide a link with more information on those villages ? Do you have the location names ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesarasmile View Post
    I believe that the grooved ware people had villages such as Skara Brae in the Boyne Valley as well as on Orkney on the British Isles dated to 6000 BC. These were quite sofisticated cultures and way beyond what one may normally think of a Neolithic society. Similar to the ancient sites of Meso america and South America.
    Very interesting. Can you provide some archaeological references?

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    The grooved ware people? sound like a bunch of hippies.

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    Interesting that Scotland has a city listed.

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    I think in Turkey there is lots of ancients cities :)

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    Oldest continuously inhabited cities in europe are.

    Plovdiv - Today's Bulgaria ( ancient Thracians)
    Naples - Todays Italy
    Chania- Creete
    Thebes - Myeacenean (ancient Greece)- Greece
    Athens- ancient Greece - Greece
    Lisbon -Portugal
    Cadiz- Spain
    Rome- Ancient Rome- Italy
    Kerkyra- Corfu-ancient ionian islands.
    Varna- Todays Bulgaria, ancient Thracs.
    Durres- Albania
    Berat- Albania
    Kavala, Todays Greece- Ancient Greece.

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    En Espa�a os habeis olvidado de algunas cuantas:
    Huelva (andaluc�a occidental).- 4.500-5.500 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Millares (andalucia oriental en Almeria).- 4.000 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Caravia (Asturias).- 2.500-900 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Daimiel-Motilla de Azuer (Albacete).- 2.200 AC (r1b1 y H)
    La Garma-Ribamontan del Monte (Cantabria).- 2.000 AC (r1b1 y V)
    Argar-Antas (andalucia oriental en Almeria).- 2.000 AC (influencia del egeo, E1b1)
    Cogotas-Carde�osa (Avila).- 1.500 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Kutzemendi-Vitoria (Alava-Pais Vasco).- 1.500 AC (r1b1 y H)
    Carmona (Sevilla-Andalucia).- 1.300-900 AC (r1b1 y H)
    y muchas m�s...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reixach View Post
    En Espa�a os habeis olvidado de algunas cuantas:
    Huelva (andaluc�a occidental).- 4.500-5.500 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Millares (andalucia oriental en Almeria).- 4.000 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Caravia (Asturias).- 2.500-900 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Daimiel-Motilla de Azuer (Albacete).- 2.200 AC (r1b1 y H)
    La Garma-Ribamontan del Monte (Cantabria).- 2.000 AC (r1b1 y V)
    Argar-Antas (andalucia oriental en Almeria).- 2.000 AC (influencia del egeo, E1b1)
    Cogotas-Carde�osa (Avila).- 1.500 AC (R1b1 y H)
    Kutzemendi-Vitoria (Alava-Pais Vasco).- 1.500 AC (r1b1 y H)
    Carmona (Sevilla-Andalucia).- 1.300-900 AC (r1b1 y H)
    y muchas m�s...
    I am afraid that there is something very wrong with your dates. Did you mean "before present" instead of "AC" (which means "before Christ") ? Even so this is still totally wrong.

    Huelva was founded by the Phoenicians around 600 BCE. That's 2600 years ago, not 7500 years ago ! Or perhaps you confuse the founding date of a city with the oldest trace of human habitation ?

    Your assumptions about haplogroups are wrong too. R1b was the last major haplogroup to reach Iberia, so whoever founded these cities were already admixture of many haplogroups.

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    Gobeki Tepe (Turkey, Close to Troy) 11,500 years ago

    Göbekli Tepe (Turkish for "Hill with a potbelly"; Kurdish: Girê Navokê) is a hilltop sanctuary built on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge about 15 km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (formerly Urfa) in southeastern Turkey. The site, currently undergoing excavation by German and Turkish archaeologists, was erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BC (ca 11,500 years ago), before the advent of sedentism. Together with the site of Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionised understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.

    Source: Wiki Gobeki Tepi

    R1b1b - P297 - R1b1b* - 10,000 BC - "Early Byblos Proto-Indo-European PIE" - Northern Mesopotamia SE Turkey to NW Iran just south of Mt Ararat - "early Byblos" culture and first Megaliths (see the world's the oldest Megalithic structure at Göbekli Tepe just 20 miles from the slopes of the Karaca shield volcano where wheat was first cultivated). Moving north from Jordan and Arabia through Syria and Iraq to the wetter uplands between lakes Van and Urmia. Here Indo-European (IE) develops with a "Celtic-leaning dialect" group developing by 8,100 BC (possibly as early as 10,000 BC - Foster and Toth) as one of many IE dialects. Interestingly, this date is almost the same as the 7,900 BC estimated by Starostin for the origin of Vasconic (Basque). It appears this group may have been multi-lingual with some element in their population speaking a Vasconic that was retained as a high-prestige "religious language" much as Sumerian was by the Semitic-speaking Akkadians in the adjacent region for a very long period. Another group R1b1a moves east to Lebanon (upto 25-50% of the Lebanese Christian community) around 10,000 BC and sails over the Mediterranean to Sardinia, while a third group R1b1bc moves into Turkey proper.

    Source: CelticHeritage.org Professor Steve Jones

    Byblos (Βύβλος) is the Greek name of the Phoenician city Gebal (earlier Gubla). It is a Mediterranean city in the Mount Lebanon Governorate of present-day Lebanon under the current Arabic name of Jbeil (جبيل Ǧubayl) and was also referred to as Gibelet during the Crusades. It is believed to have been founded around 5000 BC, and according to fragments attributed to the semi-legendary pre-Trojan war Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon, it was built by Cronus as the first city in Phoenicia.[1] Today it is believed by many to be the oldest continuously-inhabited city in the world.

    Source: Wiki Byblos

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    New "Oldest" cities are being unearthed as we speak.

    3 December 2009

    A lost European Culture, pulled from obscurity
    Before the first cities of Mesopotamia or temples along the Nile, there lived in the Lower Danube Valley and the Balkan foothills people who were ahead of their time in art, technology and long-distance trade. For 1,500 years, starting earlier than 5000 BCE, they farmed and built sizable towns, a few with as many as 2,000 dwellings. They mastered large-scale copper smelting, the new technology of the age. Their graves held an impressive array of exquisite headdresses and necklaces and, in one cemetery, the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts to be found anywhere in the world.
    The striking designs of their pottery speak of the refinement of the culture's visual language. Until recent discoveries, the most intriguing artifacts were the ubiquitous terracotta 'goddess' figurines, originally interpreted as evidence of the spiritual and political power of women in society. New research, archaeologists and historians say, has broadened understanding of this long overlooked culture, which seemed to have approached the threshold of 'civilization' status. Writing had yet to be invented, and so no one knows what the people called themselves.
    The little-known culture is being rescued from obscurity in an exhibition, 'The Lost World of Old Europe: the Danube Valley, 5000-3500 B.C.,' which opened last month at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. More than 250 artifacts from museums in Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania are on display for the first time in the United States. The show will run through April 25.

    Source: The New York Times (30 November 2009)

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    Huelva no la fundaron los fenicios, no es cierto... aqui os dejo un enlace, esta en espaol.
    http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/200...s-de-arte-.php
    La datacin de la ciudad de Huelva es minimo de 2.500 anos Antes de Cristo (years before Christ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reixach View Post
    Huelva no la fundaron los fenicios, no es cierto... aqui os dejo un enlace, esta en espa�ol.
    http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/200...s-de-arte-.php
    La dataci�n de la ciudad de Huelva es minimo de 2.500 anos Antes de Cristo (years before Christ).
    The linked article say that they found remains (in this case, idols) that are between 4500 and 5000 years old. It's not because there are human artefacts that the place was a city. Human were already manufacturing weapons, pottery and idols before the rise of agriculture. The first farming societies were organised in small villages. There are thousands of them in Europe, but these are not proper cities, with streets, walls, public buildings, etc.

    A 35,000 year-old flute and idol ("Venus figure") were found in Hohle Fels cavern in Germany, but nobody would ever call it a city, or even a village. It's the same here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Gobeki Tepe (Turkey, Close to Troy) 11,500 years ago
    Göbekli Tepe (Turkish for "Hill with a potbelly"; Kurdish: Girê Navokê) is a hilltop sanctuary built on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge about 15 km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (formerly Urfa) in southeastern Turkey. The site, currently undergoing excavation by German and Turkish archaeologists, was erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BC (ca 11,500 years ago), before the advent of sedentism. Together with the site of Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionised understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.
    Old settlement indeed, but not a city. It clearly says it is a sanctuary made by hunter-gatherers.

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    H1a1

    Ethnic group
    Celtic
    Country: Ireland



    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Old settlement indeed, but not a city. It clearly says it is a sanctuary made by hunter-gatherers.
    Agreed. Residential status not yet confirmed. Streets, yes. Public buildings, yes. But what an assembly point!

    "All statements about the site must be considered preliminary, as only about 5% of the site's total area has been excavated as yet; floor levels have been reached in only the second complex (complex B), which also contained a terrazzo-like floor. Schmidt believes that the dig could well continue for another fifty years. So far excavations have revealed very little evidence for residential use. Through the radiocarbon method, the end of stratum III can be fixed at circa 9,000 BC (see above); its beginnings are estimated to 11,000 BC or earlier. Stratum II dates to about 8,000 BC.
    Thus, the structures not only predate pottery, metallurgy, and the invention of writing or the wheel; they were built before the so-called Neolithic Revolution, i.e., the beginning of agriculture and anima husbandry around 9,000 BC. But the construction of Göbekli Tepe implies organisation of an order of complexity not hitherto associated with pre-Neolithic societies. The archaeologists estimate that up to 500 persons were required to extract the 10–20 ton pillars (in fact, some weigh up to 50 tons) from local quarries and move them 100 to 500m to the site.Archaeologist Ofer Ben-Yosef of Harvard has said he would not be surprised if evidence surfaces proving slave labor was involved—which would also represent something of a first, since hunting-gathering communities are traditionally thought to have been egalitarian and to predate slavery. At any rate, it is generally believed that an elite class of religious leaders supervised the work and later controlled whatever ceremonies took place here. If so, this would be the oldest known evidence for a priestly caste—much earlier than such social distinctions developed elsewhere in the Near East".

    Source: Wiki Göbekli Tepe

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    Quote Originally Posted by javonoL21 View Post
    Wikipedia has no academic creditability, lol
    Much of the information is pretty accurate. Some, however, is suspect.

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    Wurzburg established over 3,000 years ago.
    Würzburg is a city in the region of Franconia which lies in the northern tip of Bavaria, Germany. Located on the Main River, it is the capital of the Regierungsbezirk Lower Franconia. The regional dialect is Franconian. Its population is 131,320 as of December 31, 2006.
    By 1000 BC a Celtic fortification stood on the site of the present Fortress Marienberg. It was Christianized in 686 by Irish missionaries Kilian, Colman and Totnan.
    Source: Wiki Wurzburg

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