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Thread: R1b migration map

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    R1b migration map





    1-Mr maciamo please in this map you will note that their is a migration of R1b in europe in dark red colour ,Is this the halstatt migration?and if it is so why it didnot go to spain ,france and britain?
    2-it is show that R1b S116 went to scandinavia and italy and greece ,so please could you tell me which subclade of S116 that went to those parts during the halstatt period?Is it S28?

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    1. Yes, the dark red arrow represent the first migration from the Hallstatt region to Italy. I believe that there were several migrations from the Alps region during the whole Hallstatt and La Tène period (1200 to 50 BCE). I didn't want to cluster the map so I stopped around 1000 BCE, at the beginning of Hallstatt. There were already other arrows of previous migrations to Britain, France and Iberia, so it would have been difficult to read.

    The main purpose of this map is to show where R1b originated and how it spread to the different parts of the world where it is found nowadays, in a chronological order. R1b-S28 in Britain or Iberia is only a minority of all R1b and therefore it wasn't so important to display it.

    2. Most of the R1b-S116 in Scandinavia, Greece and Iberia is still simply R1b-S116 nowadays (or at least subclades haven't been identified yet). Scandinavia has the particularity of having a great diversity of minor subclades (S21, S28, L21), which all probably came from Germany. S28 is likely to have come during the Hallstatt period, while S21 came earlier. I am trying to figure out when L21 arrived in Scandinavia. L21 and S28 are both more common in southern Germany, while S21 is more frequent in northern Germany, so it is possible that L21 was part of an early Hallstatt migration too. However I am inclined to think that L21 correspond to an even earlier migration from southern Germany, maybe around 2000 BCE (same time as when L21 supposedly went to Britain).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    1. Yes, the dark red arrow represent the first migration from the Hallstatt region to Italy. I believe that there were several migrations from the Alps region during the whole Hallstatt and La Tène period (1200 to 50 BCE). I didn't want to cluster the map so I stopped around 1000 BCE, at the beginning of Hallstatt. There were already other arrows of previous migrations to Britain, France and Iberia, so it would have been difficult to read.

    The main purpose of this map is to show where R1b originated and how it spread to the different parts of the world where it is found nowadays, in a chronological order. R1b-S28 in Britain or Iberia is only a minority of all R1b and therefore it wasn't so important to display it.

    2. Most of the R1b-S116 in Scandinavia, Greece and Iberia is still simply R1b-S116 nowadays (or at least subclades haven't been identified yet). Scandinavia has the particularity of having a great diversity of minor subclades (S21, S28, L21), which all probably came from Germany. S28 is likely to have come during the Hallstatt period, while S21 came earlier. I am trying to figure out when L21 arrived in Scandinavia. L21 and S28 are both more common in southern Germany, while S21 is more frequent in northern Germany, so it is possible that L21 was part of an early Hallstatt migration too. However I am inclined to think that L21 correspond to an even earlier migration from southern Germany, maybe around 2000 BCE (same time as when L21 supposedly went to Britain).
    thanks too much Mr Maciamo
    but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ?

    2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3?
    3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1?
    4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T?

    Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care

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    Quote Originally Posted by motatalea View Post
    thanks too much Mr Maciamo
    but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ?

    2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3?
    3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1?
    4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T?

    Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care
    L0 is very rare nowadays. It is older than L1, L2 or L3.

    According to my data, L1 is most common in southern Africa and its frequency decreases as we move northward. L2 and L3 are found in similar proportion to each others in most of Africa, except in the North-East (around Ethiopia), where L3 is a bit more common.

    I don't have information about the link between Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups in Africa. Where did you read about Cameroonese R1b having more L1 and L2 than L0 and L3 ?

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    Best logical map so far, Someone needs to send the map to the genographic project, they still insist that R1b was in Europe way back then

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a2f (L21)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a1

    Ethnic group
    Celtic
    Country: Ireland



    Based on Professor Steve Jones analysis and my own results below is my best guess at the ancient Celtic migrations. I would be interested in any comments. (apologies for formatting).

    R1b1b2a1a2f defining mutations Subclade Time of Origin (BC) Place of highest frequency Archealogy Ancient etnic group



    rs11799226 (L21) C G R1b1b2a1a2f 4,800-1,200 Ireland, Britain, France, Germany Carrowmore Insular Celts
    R1b1b2a1a2 defining mutations
    rs34276300 (P312) C A R1b1b2a1a2 5,000-4,000 Ireland, Britain, France, Germany Halstatt Celts, Le Tene, Halstatt
    R1b1b2a1a defining mutations
    rs13304168 (L52) C T
    rs9785659 (P311) A G
    rs9786076 (L11) T C
    rs9786283 (P310) A C R1b1b2a1a 6000-5,500 Atlantic Europe, Danube, Rhine Iron Gates European Pre Proto Celt
    R1b1b2a1 defining mutations
    rs9786140 (L51) G A R1b1b2a1 6,500 Greece Thessaly Pre Proto Celts
    R1b1b2a defining mutations
    rs9785971 (L23) G A R1b1b2a 7,000 Thessaly Thessaly Pre Proto Celts
    rs9786142 (L49) T A
    R1b1b2 defining mutations
    rs877756 (S3) T C
    rs9786153 (M269) T C R1b1b2 7,000-6,000 Anatolia, Armenia Byblos Pre Proto Celts
    R1b1b defining mutations
    rs9785702 (P297) G C R1b1b Fertile Cresant Gobeki Tepe Proto Indo European
    R1b1 defining mutations
    rs150173 (P25) C A R1b1 13,000-10,000 Anatolia Anatalya Magdalanian
    R1b defining mutations
    rs9786184 (M343) C A R1b 17,000-13,000 Europe Anatolia Eurasian Magdalanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by motatalea View Post
    thanks too much Mr Maciamo
    but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ?

    2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3?
    3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1?
    4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T?

    Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care
    R1b* found in N. Cameroon is not European R1b since it does not contain the P25 marker. It is likely very old and the result of back migrations.

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    R1b & R1b1-P25 in Africa

    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    R1b* found in N. Cameroon is not European R1b since it does not contain the P25 marker. It is likely very old and the result of back migrations.
    R1b, R1b1 were direct migrations from the Levant into Africa, most of European R1b is downstream R1b1b12-M269 specifically the much younger clade R1b1b2a1a-P310 which represents the Neo-Europid Eurasid lineage that dominates Western Europe today

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    But when R1b1b2a1a-P310 has arrived North-Europe? Is it sure that R1b
    does not originate in southwest-France? It is a real difficult thing to accept.

    But I do not understand the difference between the R1b from north-Germany
    and South-Germany-Austria? And even the Swedish R1b doet not match the
    Dutch and north-German R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But when R1b1b2a1a-P310 has arrived North-Europe?
    R1b-P310* is not so common in Europe. It is rather its two subclades S21 and P312/S116 that make up the bunch of the European population.

    Is it sure that R1b
    does not originate in southwest-France? It is a real difficult thing to accept.
    Southwest France has a lot of R1b, but it has little diversity. Southern Germany has much more types of R1b. Older subclades of R1b are all found in Central Asia or the Middle East. There is a clear trail left behind R1b migrants over the millennia, starting with the birth of R1b in southern Central Asia, and ending the deepest (i.e. most recent) subclades in Western and Northern Europe.

    EDIT : I have written a more detailed explanation about how R1b came to replace older lineages in Western Europe.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 26-10-09 at 21:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ....I have written a more detailed explanation about how R1b came to replace older lineages in Western Europe.
    Do you know of such a resource written in Italian? I'm trying to locate Y-DNA information for Italian relatives and my grasp of the language is not good enough to write so technically. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchabus View Post
    Do you know of such a resource written in Italian? I'm trying to locate Y-DNA information for Italian relatives and my grasp of the language is not good enough to write so technically. Thanks.
    Over 90% of all publications about genetics are in English. I could try to translate the page about the history of haplogroups in Italian, but I don't have enough time now. I still have to update the French translation. Lots of work.

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    Yes, fortunately for many, including us, English is the lingua franca for genetic genealogy. I don't expect you to translate in Italian. I'm just not confidant enough in my ability to write Italian well on such a technical subject. However, there are several short articles at
    wikipedia italiano:
    h tee tee pee://
    it.
    wikipedia.
    org/wiki/
    Aplogruppi_del_cromosoma_Y
    (Still can't post a URL, just combine the above with http.)

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    My latest update from Genebase shows my Subclade as R1b1b2a1a2 Am I correct in saying this is a Germanic Subclade? If so, it does raise some interesting questions, since my father's family have been in Scotland for generations.

    As far as I am aware, I have no relatives in Germany. Does this mean my ancestors were originally Anglo-Saxon invaders who moved North into Scotland?

    Any information would be useful. Thank you.
    Last edited by DavidCoutts; 15-11-09 at 14:25.

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    There is a map made by Vincent Vizachero (pdf) showing the distribution in Europe of 4 sub -clades of R1b based upon data from John McEwan.
    The red shaded areas show the highest frequencies, asuming these are accurate, they reveal some surprising "hot spots" for U106 in the Balkans (apparently Romania rather than Bulgaria as stated in "Gysi Genetic Genealogy). Also, the highest frequencies of the "Celtic" U152 appear in Greece and to a lesser degree Poland, apart from the western Alpine region. Can these findings be explained?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudiger Roy View Post
    There is a map made by Vincent Vizachero (pdf) showing the distribution in Europe of 4 sub -clades of R1b based upon data from John McEwan.
    The red shaded areas show the highest frequencies, asuming these are accurate, they reveal some surprising "hot spots" for U106 in the Balkans (apparently Romania rather than Bulgaria as stated in "Gysi Genetic Genealogy). Also, the highest frequencies of the "Celtic" U152 appear in Greece and to a lesser degree Poland, apart from the western Alpine region. Can these findings be explained?
    Can you provide a link?

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    Any data supplied by John McEwan will be very dated stuff. McEwan has not been active in genetic genealogy for the last two years at least.

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    I am new to the group. So, I would like to pose a question, if I may. I had FamilytreeDNA conduct my y-DNA testing, 67 marker, with the results of R1b1b2 m-269. My paternal line comes out of Normandy by way of England, with my maternal line out of Scotland/Ireland, Clan McDonald. I belong to the Robbins/Robins DNA and the Viking Research Groups. I keep hearing numerous theories batted around as to thr origin of the R1b1b2 haplogroup; any comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. Robins View Post
    I am new to the group. So, I would like to pose a question, if I may. I had FamilytreeDNA conduct my y-DNA testing, 67 marker, with the results of R1b1b2 m-269. My paternal line comes out of Normandy by way of England, with my maternal line out of Scotland/Ireland, Clan McDonald. I belong to the Robbins/Robins DNA and the Viking Research Groups. I keep hearing numerous theories batted around as to thr origin of the R1b1b2 haplogroup; any comments.
    I think you have to order the Deep clade R test at FTDNA to know your exact Y-DNA haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. Robins View Post
    I am new to the group. So, I would like to pose a question, if I may. I had FamilytreeDNA conduct my y-DNA testing, 67 marker, with the results of R1b1b2 m-269. My paternal line comes out of Normandy by way of England, with my maternal line out of Scotland/Ireland, Clan McDonald. I belong to the Robbins/Robins DNA and the Viking Research Groups. I keep hearing numerous theories batted around as to thr origin of the R1b1b2 haplogroup; any comments.
    Do you have a Yseaerch ID?

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