I2a2 M423+

[bosna501]

Herceg-Bosna ??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hercegovina not Bosnia ??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

I think Adolf Hitler is your Forfather :)

Herceg-Bosna is a dream od stupid radical Catholics in Bosnia
and the Croatians in Croatia laugh about this stupid catholics.

Bosnians are the Nativ People of this Region this is prooved Fact
croatians and serbs come many later in this Region.
The Name Bosnia is orgin Illyrian Bosona.

See you later Adolf HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

[Yorkie]

There seems to be a great deal of confusion on this thread between the eastern and western forms of I2a2. According to ISOGG 2010 and the work of Ken Nordtvedt, I2a2a represents the 'Dinaric' form of I2a2 found in greatest numbers in the Balkans. Nordtvedt delineates between I2a2a-Dinaric North and I2a2a-Dinaric-South. These 'Dinaric' forms of I2a2 are effectively absent in western Europe and Britain/Ireland. Contrary to the theories of Rootsi et al [2004], Ken Nordtvedt has rejected a Balkan origin for these Dinaric forms, suggesting instead the Danube Basin.

There are three 'western' forms of I2a. Firstly, there is I2a3-Western, which is P37.2 positive and found near the north sea, in northern Germany and England.

Secondly, there is I2a2b-Isles which is positive for P37.2, M423 and L161. There are 8 separate subclades. Nordtvedt, who discovered them, suggests that the founder was on the north German plain. I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe except for a few hits in Poland. The bulk of the membership is in Ireland, Scotland and England [hence the 'Isles' tag] but there is now a decent, emerging continental membership with Germany in the lead, followed by France across the north European plain. Nordtvedt suggests a Neolithic origin for this Germany-founded I2a2b-Isles, and has said that 'Isles' may represent a genetic echo of some of the earliest post-LGM settlers. Conversely, Bryan Sykes [private correspondence] 'remains unconvinced by substantial dates' that I2a2 in Britain dates back this far. Sykes suggests instead that some of this I2a2b-Isles variety was carried by Anglo- Saxons. I also recently consulted Anatole Klyosov about this British/Irish I2a2; Anatole is of the view that most of it is 'ancient' but that some was brought by 'the invaders'.

Finally, there is the 'Disles' variety of I2a2a, called so by Nordtvedt because it is practically 'in the middle' of Dinaric and Isles varieties, leaning slightly towards the Dinaric. This variety has a hotspot in Scotland.

[Maciamo]

There seems to be a great deal of confusion on this thread between the eastern and western forms of I2a2. According to ISOGG 2010 and the work of Ken Nordtvedt, I2a2a represents the 'Dinaric' form of I2a2 found in greatest numbers in the Balkans. Nordtvedt delineates between I2a2a-Dinaric North and I2a2a-Dinaric-South. These 'Dinaric' forms of I2a2 are effectively absent in western Europe and Britain/Ireland. Contrary to the theories of Rootsi et al [2004], Ken Nordtvedt has rejected a Balkan origin for these Dinaric forms, suggesting instead the Danube Basin.

In my opinion, I2a2 were nomadic hunter-gatherers of South-East Europe, occupying both the Balkans and the Danube basin, possibly as far as the Dnieper to the north, and Greece to the south.

The Neolithic expansion brought Near Eastern settlers (E-V13 and J2b), who established the first permanent settlements in Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, parts of Bulgaria, and along the Danube across Germany as far as Belgium and northern France. They effectively cut the I2a2 territory in two, forcing the the hunter-gatherers out of their farmlands, and creating in eastern Moldovan branch and and western Dinaric branch of I2a2 people.

The I2a2 people progressively adopted agriculture and stock breeding themselves. The Moldovan branch thus formed the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture, which later came into conflict with the Indo-European (southern) R1b1b2 and (northern) R1a1a steppe people, who relied mostly on stock breeding (but knew agriculture), rode horses and acquired early the knowledge of Bronze metallurgy, which eventually gave them the military superiority needed to conquer their neighbours.

The nomadic nature of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Y-haplogroup I) make it entirely possible that some tribes of I2a2 ended up in Western Europe, where I2b lineages predominated. Likewise, I1 tribes of northern Europe, who apparently did not just occupy Scandinavia but also Poland and perhaps the Baltic and parts of north-western Russia, could have ended up locked in a corner of Macedonia or Kosovo, explaining why some studies found 10% of I1 there. It also explains the 2-3% of I1 inn Serbia or Bosnia, and the 3% of I2b in Albania, all possible results of nomadic tribes of hunter-gatherers who remained stuck in the Balkans after Near Eastern farmers created a corridor of farms and towns all along the Danube.

[Shetop]

Questions for both Yorkie and Maciamo:
Do you agree with what seems to be mainstream opinion about E-V13 movement to Britain during Roman period? If you do agree, how can there be no I2a2 Dinaric in Britain?
What are your arguments for placing I2a2 Dinaric south of Carpathians before migration period? Yes, we all can see high frequencies of I2a2 Dinaric in the Balkans today, but what is the basis for claims that in period which was historically well described it was different?

I have no doubt that work of Ken Nordtvedt is very valuable but with this particular assumption he is making a mistake. My view is that I2a2 originated in western Ukraine. It was proto-Slavic marker and was spread to Southwest with Slavs.

And one question for Maciamo – can you provide a reference for 2-3% of I1 in Serbia? Recent study which had the biggest number of samples actually showed 7.82% of I1 in Serbia. I1 is not the topic but since it was mentioned I’ll say what I think – 90% of I1 in the Balkans is of Gothic origin.

[Yorkie]

Questions for both Yorkie and Maciamo:
Do you agree with what seems to be mainstream opinion about E-V13 movement to Britain during Roman period? If you do agree, how can there be no I2a2 Dinaric in Britain?
What are your arguments for placing I2a2 Dinaric south of Carpathians before migration period? Yes, we all can see high frequencies of I2a2 Dinaric in the Balkans today, but what is the basis for claims that in period which was historically well described it was different?

I have no doubt that work of Ken Nordtvedt is very valuable but with this particular assumption he is making a mistake. My view is that I2a2 originated in western Ukraine. It was proto-Slavic marker and was spread to Southwest with Slavs.

And one question for Maciamo – can you provide a reference for 2-3% of I1 in Serbia? Recent study which had the biggest number of samples actually showed 7.82% of I1 in Serbia. I1 is not the topic but since it was mentioned I’ll say what I think – 90% of I1 in the Balkans is of Gothic origin.

I have never been wholly conviced that E-VI3 represents a genetic echo of the Romans in Britain. I am not completely against the idea, but remain open to persuasion.

Re the absence of I2a2a-Dinaric in Britain; this does indeed indicate to me that the Roman auxiliaries left few genetic traces in Britain. The clade is indeed absent, save for a puny list of around 9 people with British surnames who carry one of the 2 'Dinaric' varieties of I2a2. One suspects NPEs in these cases.

There is an I2a2a-Disles variety, which is 'mid-way' between I2a2a-Dinaric and the north Germany-founded I2a2b-Isles variety. Curiously, 'Disles' is slightly closer to Dinaric than to Isles. The hotspot for Disles is Scotland.

In my view, neither the Romans, Slavic peoples or 'Slavicised' Balkan peoples have made a significant contribution to the British gene-pool. I say that with respect and without wishing to cause offence.

[Shetop]

There is this I2a2 issue going on for some time. It can be said it is a part of the bigger migration period story.

There are those who think migration period caused major population replacements in some parts of eastern Europe during migration period, and there are those who oppose it. When talking about I2a2 it is indicative that forum members from countries where I2a2 Dinaric is found, support the position of western Ukrainian origin of I2a2.

It would be in the interest of the people form Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Montenegro to claim I2a2 is indigenous. But we don't do that, and the reason is simple - we all learned about Slavic migrations in the school.

As the matter affect, Balkans is the great region to understand the ways of Y-DNA in antiquity. Y-DNA was much more divided and correlation between languages and Y-DNA was very strong. Some would say it is simple way to look into the complex issue. But try to understand Balkans and you will see.

I will continue to insist that I2a2, I1, I2b, Q1b was absent from the Balkans before migration period. And R1a1 was present in much smaller frequencies.

[Shetop]

In my opinion, I2a2 were nomadic hunter-gatherers of South-East Europe, occupying both the Balkans and the Danube basin, possibly as far as the Dnieper to the north, and Greece to the south.

The age of I2a2-Dinaric was estimated at 3600 years, then adjusted to 2550 years, now TMRCA ages are being recomputed

.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

These two quotes don't go together. I know you were talking about I2a2 (not Dinaric), but how come only Dinaric is spread in the regions you described and Isles is not?

I2a2 Dinaric is that numerous and young at the same time, so we would have to know about movements of such a big number of people in recent history. Only explanation is Slavic migrations.

[Yorkie]

There is this I2a2 issue going on for some time. It can be said it is a part of the bigger migration period story.

There are those who think migration period caused major population replacements in some parts of eastern Europe during migration period, and there are those who oppose it. When talking about I2a2 it is indicative that forum members from countries where I2a2 Dinaric is found, support the position of western Ukrainian origin of I2a2.

It would be in the interest of the people form Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Montenegro to claim I2a2 is indigenous. But we don't do that, and the reason is simple - we all learned about Slavic migrations in the school.

As the matter affect, Balkans is the great region to understand the ways of Y-DNA in antiquity. Y-DNA was much more divided and correlation between languages and Y-DNA was very strong. Some would say it is simple way to look into the complex issue. But try to understand Balkans and you will see.

I will continue to insist that I2a2, I1, I2b, Q1b was absent from the Balkans before migration period. And R1a1 was present in much smaller frequencies.

I believe that Nordtvedt has recently expressed some sympathy for the idea that Slavic migrations might have spread I2a2a-Dinaric. He appears to favour somewhere north of the Balkans as an origin such as the Danube Basin rather than Ukraine though.

When we are comparing I2a2a-Dinaric with I2a2b-Isles, we need to remember that their branch lines separated ways some 12,000 years ago, and that they are separated by two SNPs. We are talking about two very different population groups. Isles has nothing to do with the Balkans, is absent there, and was founded in north Germany. That is why the distribution is roughly so...

Ireland, England, Scotland , Germany, France.

As stated before the few Polish Isles members seem to be from former German territories, and at least one [Krause] has a German name.

[Yorkie]

In my opinion, I2a2 were nomadic hunter-gatherers of South-East Europe, occupying both the Balkans and the Danube basin, possibly as far as the Dnieper to the north, and Greece to the south.

The Neolithic expansion brought Near Eastern settlers (E-V13 and J2b), who established the first permanent settlements in Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, parts of Bulgaria, and along the Danube across Germany as far as Belgium and northern France. They effectively cut the I2a2 territory in two, forcing the the hunter-gatherers out of their farmlands, and creating in eastern Moldovan branch and and western Dinaric branch of I2a2 people.

The I2a2 people progressively adopted agriculture and stock breeding themselves. The Moldovan branch thus formed the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture, which later came into conflict with the Indo-European (southern) R1b1b2 and (northern) R1a1a steppe people, who relied mostly on stock breeding (but knew agriculture), rode horses and acquired early the knowledge of Bronze metallurgy, which eventually gave them the military superiority needed to conquer their neighbours.

The nomadic nature of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Y-haplogroup I) make it entirely possible that some tribes of I2a2 ended up in Western Europe, where I2b lineages predominated. Likewise, I1 tribes of northern Europe, who apparently did not just occupy Scandinavia but also Poland and perhaps the Baltic and parts of north-western Russia, could have ended up locked in a corner of Macedonia or Kosovo, explaining why some studies found 10% of I1 there. It also explains the 2-3% of I1 inn Serbia or Bosnia, and the 3% of I2b in Albania, all possible results of nomadic tribes of hunter-gatherers who remained stuck in the Balkans after Near Eastern farmers created a corridor of farms and towns all along the Danube.

I can see the logic in your argument, Maciamo. I would love to talk to you via private email but for some reason I don't seem to be able to send messages on the site.

Your point about the nomadic nature of hunter-gatherers is a cogent one. You appear to be suggesting that the British/Irish and to some extent north European plain distribution of I2a2b-Isles could be down to this. The idea of I1 'locked in a corner' of Kosovo because of this same pattern of hunter-gatherer behaviour intrigues me too. Very, very interesting.

[Shetop]

Let's assume I2a2 Din originated in the Danube Basin. Since you agree with Nordtvedt you agree that TMRCA of I2a2 Din lived 2550 years ago.

How many years would it take for I2a2 Din to grow in humbers enough so that it can spread in the large territory between Adriatic and Dnieper?

I would say it would take centuries. So it can't be I2a2 Din spread in both directions before the beginning of Common Era. Do you agree with that?

Has history described this period with regard to Danube Basin. I would say it had. In your opinion what event from history describes the spread of Slavs from the Danube Basin towards east?

There is no such event. With all do respect, your story is logically inconsistent.

I challenge you to answer me - what is logical inconsistency in the theory of spreading I2a2 Din from western Ukraine?

[Yorkie]

Let's assume I2a2 Din originated in the Danube Basin. Since you agree with Nordtvedt you agree that TMRCA of I2a2 Din lived 2550 years ago.

How many years would it take for I2a2 Din to grow in humbers enough so that it can spread in the large territory between Adriatic and Dnieper?

I would say it would take centuries. So it can't be I2a2 Din spread in both directions before the beginning of Common Era. Do you agree with that?

Has history described this period with regard to Danube Basin. I would say it had. In your opinion what event from history describes the spread of Slavs from the Danube Basin towards east?

There is no such event. With all do respect, your story is logically inconsistent.

I challenge you to answer me - what is logical inconsistency in the theory of spreading I2a2 Din from western Ukraine?

Firstly, please moderate your tone- there is no need to 'challenge' anybody. I never said that I agreed with Nordtvedt 100% on everything. After pondering the evidence I think Nordtvedt is actually wrong re the Danube Basin. I have changed my view over the last few months. I happen to agree with you that Ukraine is more likely. I also agree that the Slavic migrations are probably responsible for the spreading of I2a2a-Dinaric. There...you see...life is full of surprises isn't it?

I also agree with Sykes that I2a2b-Isles was most likely brought by Anglo Saxons to Britain as well as the Neolithic settlers Nordtvedt associates with Isles.

You see, Shetop, or should I say 'k', I do listen to your logical arguments sometimes. Ken is a brilliant researcher but I can form my own opinions. LOL.

[Shetop]

I apologize, I shouldn’t have it written that way. The thing is, our voices are much more silent then those of Nordtvedt or Maciamo, and I guess I wanted to be heard. But in the end I believe we all have best intentions.

Though, I don’t quite understand this comment with ‘k’. If it is what I think it is, maybe it should be ‘n’.

[Yorkie]

I apologize, I shouldn’t have it written that way. The thing is, our voices are much more silent then those of Nordtvedt or Maciamo, and I guess I wanted to be heard. But in the end I believe we all have best intentions.

Though, I don’t quite understand this comment with ‘k’. If it is what I think it is, maybe it should be ‘n’.

That's ok. The reference to 'k' [made in good humour] was to an identity on another forum. Maybe I have the wrong poster?

[Shetop]

I am Neba there...

[Yorkie]

I am Neba there...

I must have mistaken you for someone else.

Re Isles and Dinaric- there may be 12,000 years between them, but they did share a common ancestor.

If Dinaric was founded in Ukraine, and Isles was founded in northern Germany, I wonder where I2a2a-Disles was founded? As previously outlined, this very small clade is slightly nearer to Dinaric than to Isles, and the hotspot is Scotland followed by Ireland.

[how yes no 2]

Picture shows possible boundaries of haplogroup I around 100 AD. I think existence of haplogroup I outside these lines is unlikely (except some I2b in Balkans, I2a2b in Britain and might be I2a2b in Balkans).
What followed in the next several centuries should probably be called "Migration of Haplogroup I".

on your figure, R1a for that time should match Venedi (and Fenni which is just a derivation from Venedi/Veni and is a part of later self-identification "(Slo)veni" ), since Venedi later moved north to fill in space left by Goths, and also towards west to fill in space vacated after movements of Germanic tribes (e.g. Suebes and Vandals to Iberian peninsula)
note that common terms used in past by Germans for Slavic people is Wends which is literally same as Veneds... (if someone is confused by dual naming Serbs/Serbi, Veneds/Venedi, Alans/Alani -s is germanic suffix for plural, while -i is Slavic suffix for plural)

and btw. R1a probably covered much larger area...
note that Venedi/Fenni have two separated settlements that match separated peaks of R1a in Poland and Russia... looking back at the historical map they were separated by passage of Goths towards the Black sea...


as for I2a2, it is a mistery where to place it and to what tribe(s) is it related...
its high variance above Black sea (see figure bellow) strongly indicates that it should be placed in area above Black sea, where at that time we find Sarmatae tribes... alternatively, strong variance of I2a2 above Black sea reflects later settlement of Goths around that area... it could also reflect people assimilated by Goths and/or Sarmatians...
interesting to notice is also the peak of I2a2 variance in Noricum..
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

I think I2a2 on map of Shetop should be in areas of above Black sea and in Noricum...

its spread on Balkan can match settlements of Visigoths

and kingdom of Ostrogoths

with knowledge that Ostrogoths captured Byzantine lands by massive settlement in countryside

Totila's strategy was to move fast and take control of the countryside, leaving the Byzantine forces in control of well-defended cities, and especially the ports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totila
and absence of I2a2 in Italy except in north part of it is explainable by

The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths


alternatively spread of I2a2 in Balkans may reflect proposed Sarmatian origin of Serbs and Croats...

tribe named Serbi is part of Asiatic Sarmatia in Caucasus imediatelly northeast of Alani tribe


Osetians who are iranian speaking group of Caucasus, and considered to origin from Alans, do have in their northern towns Ardon and Digora respectively 32% and 13% of haplogroup I
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf
such local peaks indicate assimilated neighbouring population living north of them... that tribe could have easily been Sarmatian Serbi that were probably speaking similar or more likely same iranian language as all Sarmatians did...


As for Croats, their link to Sarmatians is from Carpatian mountains that were settled by Sarmatians and later by similarly named Croatians...

worth noting is the presence of I2a2 in areas away from historical influence of Goths (e.g. south Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia, west Ukraine) and where Sarmatian presence is historically confirmed (e.g. in Poland)..also where are "white Croatia" and "white Serbia" states from which Croats and Serbs settled Balkan...

on the other hand strong point for Gothic origin of I2a2 is that all the rest of I haplogroup seems to be Germanic... worth nothing is that Gothic origin of Balkan I2a2 would probabbly cause usage of Gothic alike languages, while Sarmatians that came from Slavic lands did already shift from their own language to Slavic one...

it is also plausible to explain I2a2 in Balkans with autochtone people of the region
e.g. high variance of I2a2 in Noricum can represent ancient Veneti population and Noricum might have been a point where R1a and I2a2 has met creating a melting pot in which today Slavs were created..such a scenario is further backed up by practically the same names Veneti and Venedi,

Russian primary chronicle from 1113 actually claims that Slavs are people from Noricum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of
Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

from page 2 on http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf


it is also possible that I2a2 did settle Balkans in several waves including autochtone inhabitants, Goths, and Sarmatian Serbs and Croats...

[Shetop]

Well how yes no, I've spent a lot of time and energy, and I came to the conclusion shown on the map. I could approximately even tell the year I2a2a-Din moved from its homeland.

I'm aware of all this information you wrote, but it would take really a lot of time to explain my views about other possibilities and why do I think they are not correct.

I'll just say that already in 450 AD all I2a2a-Din tribes spoke Slavic language. If you know this all other things have to fit into that fact.

Recommended reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(Avar_Khagan)
http://www.s155239215.onlinehome.us/...ltsov%20En.htm
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full
http://www.roman-glory.com/images/img050101-05.jpg

Please try to have just one theory of yours, and then it would be easier to discuss.

PS: I like your "name"

[how yes no 2]

Veneti might be the (or one of the) original source(s) of I2a2
.................................................. .........................
Vistula Veneti might have been the original position of Veneti next to places with dominant I1 and I2a1...
they live next to Vandals (I2a1) and their shared common origin is reflected in practically shared name Vandals/Veneti
Vistula Veneti are origin of later Venedi
key to mistery:

Although Tacitus listed the Venethi as a Germanic tribe, in his Getica, Jordanes equated the Venethi with the Sclavenes and Antes. Slavists such as Pavel Josef Šafařík have criticized Tacitus for erroneously identifying the Venethi as Germanic[1], due to the similar appearance of Slavs and Germans[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
thus in the time of Tacitus they were still Germanic, later by living in proximity of Slavic Sclavenoi (Fenni?) and Antes they merged into them... in time of Jordanes they are completely Slavic
.................................................. ................................................
Adriatic Veneti are the cause of big variance in Noricum...and cause of high frequency in north Italy....
.................................................. .................................................
Veneti also may explain British clades
a branch of Veneti lived in Bretagne (Britanny) in France

from that area Britain was partly settled...
even some Scotish tribes origin from them...
and Welsh and Bretons language are considered similar..
.................................................. ..........
and I still need to explain big variance above Black sea...
could iranian Sarmatians be related to Germanic tribes?

[Yorkie]

Veneti might be the (or one of the) original source(s) of I2a2
.................................................. .........................
Vistula Veneti might have been the original position of Veneti next to places with dominant I1 and I2a1...
they live next to Vandals (I2a1) and their shared common origin is reflected in practically shared name Vandals/Veneti
Vistula Veneti are origin of later Venedi
key to mistery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
thus in the time of Tacitus they were still Germanic, later by living in proximity of Slavic Sclavenoi (Fenni?) and Antes they merged into them... in time of Jordanes they are completely Slavic
.................................................. ................................................
Adriatic Veneti are the cause of big variance in Noricum...and cause of high frequency in north Italy....
.................................................. .................................................
Veneti also may explain British clades
a branch of Veneti lived in Bretagne (Britanny) in France

from that area Britain was partly settled...
even some Scotish tribes origin from them...
and Welsh and Bretons language are considered similar..
.................................................. ..........
and I still need to explain big variance above Black sea...
could iranian Sarmatians be related to Germanic tribes?

I don't see why the Veneti should explain the British I2a2 at all. Arguably, L161 I2a2b-Isles [I know you love Ken Nordtvedt's nomenclature...] was founded in northern Germany. From that geographical position there are several far more likely explanations as to how it was carried to Britain than via the Veneti.
If I2a2 is as old as Nordtvedt argues, then some could have been carried over in the early post-LGM scenario.
Bryan Sykes favours an Anglo Saxon origin for most British I2a2.
Arguably, there are other more likely possibilities too, rather than Veneti, such as La Tene Celts, Belgae etc. Maybe I2a2 came to Britain in these different 'waves'?
It is not impossible, of course, that the Veneti contributed some I2a2, but less likely I think than the other 'tribal' groups. They surely cannot have contributed it all. I2a2b [L161] has an emerging presence on the north European Plain with Germany predominating in terms of non-British and non-Irish members. So the link to the other groups seems to be more likely. In any case, would the Veneti carry L161 I2a2b, the form found in Britain? I would think it more likely that they carried I2a2a, which is absent in Britain/Ireland.

[Shetop]

Veneti might be the (or one of the) original source(s) of I2a2

I thought about that but I coudn't figure out where did all R1a people (which today live in Poland, Moravia, Slovakia etc..) come from. Maybe you can be better than me in explaining that.

Adriatic Veneti are the cause of big variance in Noricum...and cause of high frequency in north Italy....

I also used to think that variance is very important clue. But look at this variance map for I2a2 (figure D): http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F3.large.jpg
It does not look the same as the one you were reffered to.
Also when great depopulation events happen (like in Poland or western Balkans), variance looses it's importance. But it is also possible that I'm making a mistake by disregarding it.

My main method is "going backwards through history", I see where ceratin Y-DNA is now and follow prevoius historical events, one by one, in order to get to some conclusions. This is unlike most people familiar with genetics - they find the oldest clade in some region and then set it as a place of origin. This partly worked with R1b, so now they think it will work everywhere.

Veneti also may explain British clades

Things are a bit more complicated than that. It won't work explaining everthing with common name of different tribes. Especially becuase of frequency of I2a2b, its age, current distribution etc. I simply disagree here.

[Yorkie]

I thought about that but I coudn't figure out where did all R1a people (which today live in Poland, Moravia, Slovakia etc..) come from. Maybe you can be better than me in explaining that.




I also used to think that variance is very important clue. But look at this variance map for I2a2 (figure D): http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F3.large.jpg
It does not look the same as the one you were reffered to.
Also when great depopulation events happen (like in Poland or western Balkans), variance looses it's importance. But it is also possible that I'm making a mistake by disregarding it.

My main method is "going backwards through history", I see where ceratin Y-DNA is now and follow prevoius historical events, one by one, in order to get to some conclusions. This is unlike most people familiar with genetics - they find the oldest clade in some region and then set it as a place of origin. This partly worked with R1b, so now they think it will work everywhere.



Things are a bit more complicated than that. It won't work explaining everthing with common name of different tribes. Especially becuase of frequency of I2a2b, its age, current distribution etc. I simply disagree here.

Yes. To reiterate, there are far, far more likely 'tribal' carriers of L161 I2a2b-Isles to Britain [early post-LGM settlers, later La Tene Celts, Belgae, Anglo-Saxons] than the Veneti. I am genuinely astonished that the previous poster actually thinks the Veneti could be solely responsible for the British I2a2. That is a reductionist argument if ever I heard one. If the Veneti carried I2a2, it would be more likely to be the type that is absent in Britain- I2a2a-Dinaric.

[Yorkie]

I thought about that but I coudn't figure out where did all R1a people (which today live in Poland, Moravia, Slovakia etc..) come from. Maybe you can be better than me in explaining that.




I also used to think that variance is very important clue. But look at this variance map for I2a2 (figure D): http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F3.large.jpg
It does not look the same as the one you were reffered to.
Also when great depopulation events happen (like in Poland or western Balkans), variance looses it's importance. But it is also possible that I'm making a mistake by disregarding it.

My main method is "going backwards through history", I see where ceratin Y-DNA is now and follow prevoius historical events, one by one, in order to get to some conclusions. This is unlike most people familiar with genetics - they find the oldest clade in some region and then set it as a place of origin. This partly worked with R1b, so now they think it will work everywhere.



Things are a bit more complicated than that. It won't work explaining everthing with common name of different tribes. Especially becuase of frequency of I2a2b, its age, current distribution etc. I simply disagree here.

I wonder if the previous poster who favours the Veneti realises that the branch line between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric split 13,000 years ago? I2a2b is practically absent in eastern Europe and I2a2a [save for the very small I2a2a-Disles clade] is practically absent in the west.

[LeBrok]

Also when great depopulation events happen (like in Poland or western Balkans), variance looses it's importance. But it is also possible that I'm making a mistake by disregarding it.

Great point, we have to keep in mind that whatever Veneti contributed in Poland, was almost completely wiped out. Right after the Goths walked through to the Black Sea the are of today's Poland was depopulated. I'm guessing, It was Attila the Hun doing.

Also there could be a connection to Adriatic Veneti. I'd swear the name sounds Italian, :), were also "i" is plural. There was a big settlement of R1b in Czechs area since La Tente, or so. Maybe part of Veneti Tribe moved south, part North-East.




I like reading your post How Yes No and enjoying your talk of quick arguments/thinking, though not sure how much of it will hold water after deep scrutiny and new genetic evidence in the future. You're are jumping to conclusions much too fast for my liking. I wish I had more time these days to indulge in it.

[how yes no 2]

Yes. To reiterate, there are far, far more likely 'tribal' carriers of L161 I2a2b-Isles to Britain [early post-LGM settlers, later La Tene Celts, Belgae, Anglo-Saxons] than the Veneti. I am genuinely astonished that the previous poster actually thinks the Veneti could be solely responsible for the British I2a2. That is a reductionist argument if ever I heard one. If the Veneti carried I2a2, it would be more likely to be the type that is absent in Britain- I2a2a-Dinaric.

I never said solely...I said they might explain I2a2 in Britain...

I wonder if the previous poster who favours the Veneti realises that the branch line between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric split 13,000 years ago? I2a2b is practically absent in eastern Europe and I2a2a [save for the very small I2a2a-Disles clade] is practically absent in the west.

those time numbers are extremely rough estimations that can be several times wrong....

science today is mostly not about search for truth, it is about publishing as much as possible of scientific papers... results of such a "science" are all those popular science news that are constantly conflicting each other - e.g. about how for instance this or that type of food or mutation in this or that gene is good for this or that health issue, in next news it is bad, than it has no influence..and so on...
same is with this stuff...can't be trusted...

there was not enough time in history of genetics to even develop proper model based on measurements.... so you have combination of probably incorrect model and of ad hoc parameters....

models are based on ideas about rate of mutations and average time between generations...ask anthropologist to tell you how time between generations changed in past and they will not really know...do you think genetics know? no, they just took reasonable numbers...that is values that sounded reasonable to them... I think they even took insanely high 30 years between generations.. and second thing they assume that mutation happens with certain rate... but thing is mutation rate is not really predictable and there is no solid idea about whether they can be described...
e.g. under influence on mutagenes from environment rate of mutation can change dramatically and differ a lot from any expected statistics...

as far as we know models used by genetic scientist to "determine" "age"are pure speculation...author can assume literary any parameters for his model since it is literary impossible to verify correctnes of both the model and the parameters.... and than people like you read the numbers and take them for granted...

plus, haplogrup being old doesnot say where it has splitted from parent haplogroup.. people tend to move a lot... especially when we look movements in large time windows of several thousand years... slow changes of place might leave a trace... but fast movement to distant places will not... and than it happens that 2 subbranches of same haplogroup (e.g. I2a2) are isolated in space..

back to Veneti and I2a2, isolated development of I2a2 dinaric and I2a2Isles is main reason why we should look for its origin among groups of same people who were already separated in very long past between near Britain and east Europe... that is where Veneti fits perfectly..because we know that tribes named Veneti lived in Britanny close to Great Britain, on north Adriatic, and around Vistula river in Poland.... this makes Veneti good candidate for carriers of I2a2... that coupled with Germanic origin of other I haplogroups and with knowing of Veneti recorded in distant history as Germanic tribe and in recent past as Slavic tribe, we can conclude that Veneti are pretty good candidate for the spread of I2a2...

[how yes no 2]

I thought about that but I coudn't figure out where did all R1a people (which today live in Poland, Moravia, Slovakia etc..) come from. Maybe you can be better than me in explaining that.

I think that wave of R1a was in Europe before haplogroup I but very soon after R1b...maybe they have arrived in same wave since in Iran they were next to each other
R1b in areas of east Iran and R1a next to them more to east..
R1b could have taken the routes via Asia minor and Caucasus and R1a mostly around Caspian sea in that way R1b arrived to southern Europe and R1a to northern Europe... these arrivals might have been in nearly the same time....
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26060
Venedi are later wave and were probably mix of R1a and I2a2 since name Venedi is related to the name (V)Indi that is to origin of R1a from India which indicates R1a,,, while they are recorded in history first as Sarmatian tribe than as German, and few centuries later as Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti ) which is explainable by
Sarmatians and Germans being brothers by origin (I1 and I2) while Sarmatians probabbly have also harboured R1a and was culturally connected to it...

Fenni that are found around Venedi do match two peaks of R1a in Poland and Russia, and Venedi as I2a2 with some R1a are between them...

Fenni are fascinating tribe, living in touch with nature on lower level of technological development..in fact that fits well with pagan religion of Slavs that was more oriented to nature compared with religions of germanic tribes that were more about heroic deeds...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni


btw. I think R1a was a continuum from India to Poland (going around Caspian sea) until it was cut into 2 parts by carriers of haplogroup C3 which are Scythians or their ancestors ...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058

I also used to think that variance is very important clue. But look at this variance map for I2a2 (figure D): http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F3.large.jpg
It does not look the same as the one you were reffered to.
Also when great depopulation events happen (like in Poland or western Balkans), variance looses it's importance. But it is also possible that I'm making a mistake by disregarding it.

variance is very important clue where it comes to distant past...
link that you posted was a result published few years before the one that I have posted... in meantime lot more samples were taken and graph of variance was improved...