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Thread: The Celts of Iberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Why in the world are you posting this? What relevance does this have here? Are you trying to be provocative?

    Do you know (I'm sure you do) that Sub-Saharan DNA is found in ALL European countries (yes even in Scandinavia) and that scientists are not even clear if the origins are in fact Sub-Saharan. The subclades found in Iberia and much of Europe are so old most of it may have originated in Asia and they pre-date by eons the Atlantic Slave Trade. Also "Sub-Saharan" Y-DNA in Iberia is essentially 0%. Accounting for variances in population levels, the average "Sub-Saharan" mt-DNA totals in Portugal and Spain are roughly 3%, on the same level as France.

    Do you know a damn about the history of Southern Portugal (Alentejo and the Algarve)? Are you aware that the regions make up only 8% of the country's population? Do you know that the mt-DNA samplings collected for most of the studies conducted in South Portugal are NON-REPRESENTATIVE, because they included small, isolated communities who's individuals had been historically ostracized from greater society due to disease and slavery? Look up the history of Sado and Alcacer do Sal and educate yourself.

    BTW, want to make a bet on the levels of Sub-Saharan DNA existing in Britain's Slave Trade cities, like Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff? Want to guess how many mixed bloods in Liverpool can trace their ancestry back to 17th-18th England? Come off it, man... Grow up!

    The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.

    Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
    Accept your roots and don't be racist.

    This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
    Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
    Accept your roots and don't be racist.
    This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.
    I know my roots only too well and have no issues with them at all. You are the one making stupid suggestions here, no one else. "Don't be racist"... What a laugh... Coming from you that must be some sort of joke, no?

    The substratum and heritage of Western Iberia is Celtic. Finito. If you don't agree with that, that is your problem.

    BTW, never got a response on Britain's Slave Trade towns...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    I know my roots only too well and have no issues with them at all. You are the one making stupid suggestions here, no one else. "Don't be racist"... What a laugh... Coming from you that must be some sort of joke, no?

    The substratum and heritage of Western Iberia is Celtic. Finito. If you don't agree with that, that is your problem.

    BTW, never got a response on Britain's Slave Trade towns...

    Portugal goes way beyond Liverpool etc in its African element and we are dealing with a scientific report (Achilli et alia) and not merely my suggestions.
    Last edited by Vallicanus; 07-07-09 at 23:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Portugal goes way beyond Liverpool etc in its African element and we are dealing with a scientific report (Achilli et alia) and not merely my suggestions.
    And what are your suggestions? BTW, do you have any figures for Liverpool, etc.?

    You are trying to tell me I am something I'm not. That is insulting. What if I suggested that you are an Eskimo, and you are anything but that? What would you think? Again, I know EXACTLY what I am. I've done deep DNA testing and know my family origins are essentially Atlantic Celtic (matching the Southern Irish and Welsh) and Swabian.

    Look up the various mt-DNA studies for Portugal. There are several. Yes the figures look higher, but when you account for methodology problems and regional population size you average out to about 3%.

    This conversation is at a dead end. Think whatever you like...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
    Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
    Accept your roots and don't be racist.
    This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.
    There is plenty of extra-European origin DNA throughout Europe. Look at Greece and much of Italy, Romania, etc. Lot's of Arab there. More than Spain and Portugal. Does that mean that only a tiny fraction of Europeans are REALLY European? ABSURD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
    Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
    Accept your roots and don't be racist.
    This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.
    Did I say all Iberians were Celtic? No, I said that Western Iberia (WI) is essentially Celtic in substratum. A considerable part of WI is (still) culturally Celtic as well.

    BTW, any trivial SS mt-DNA, or other "extra-origin" levels, in any population has no real affect on its genetic pool. If it did, we would ALL look a lot different.

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    Question Celts and other confusions

    This argument results due to confusion about whether we're discussing genetic ancestry, language & culture, nationality, etc.

    "Celts"... is a linguistic term really. The original Celts, since it is an Indoeuropean language, were Indoeuropeans with R2 Y-chromosomes. By the time they got to southern Germany, Iberia, Britain, northern Italy or wherever, they were thoroughly mixed with other peoples, notably the indigenous (Cro-Magnoid) types. It is pointless to argue what a Celt looked like, as there are multiple answers, all correct in some place and time.

    Even these categories of phenotypes (Brunn, etc.) are problematic, as they obscure the genetic reality. In fact, there are various types which contribute to the European population and in every country, nay in every region and even town, the mixture varies. We can only be certain about statistical probabilities... in Italy you will LIKELY have more of one of the Neolithic types than in Norway. In Russia you will likely have more Indoeuropean genes than in Ireland.

    Outside of Europe, it is the same. Look at the various genotype maps on this site. Even in West Africa there is a healthy dose of Y-chromosome R types... so African-Americans were often already mixed with "whites" even before being brought to America! And so on...

    We're all human. "Race" is impossible to classify or categorize with any certainty or precision, due to mixing and the complex array of splitting of human groups. What is important really is ETHNICITY, and that is entirely cultural... meaning it is not somatic... it's in the mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    And what are your suggestions? BTW, do you have any figures for Liverpool, etc.?

    You are trying to tell me I am something I'm not. That is insulting. What if I suggested that you are an Eskimo, and you are anything but that? What would you think? Again, I know EXACTLY what I am. I've done deep DNA testing and know my family origins are essentially Atlantic Celtic (matching the Southern Irish and Welsh) and Swabian.

    Look up the various mt-DNA studies for Portugal. There are several. Yes the figures look higher, but when you account for methodology problems and regional population size you average out to about 3%.

    This conversation is at a dead end. Think whatever you like...

    How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    There is plenty of extra-European origin DNA throughout Europe. Look at Greece and much of Italy, Romania, etc. Lot's of Arab there. More than Spain and Portugal. Does that mean that only a tiny fraction of Europeans are REALLY European? ABSURD!
    The various parts of Greece have little or no SS African mtDNA. Some parts of Italy do while other parts of Italy have a zero presence in this report.

    Berber (NW African) Y chromosomes reach 18.6 pc in Cantabria, the European maximum recorded so far, and can nearby Portugal be much less?

    Arabs and Berbers are mostly Caucasoid not SS Africans, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barros Serrano View Post
    This argument results due to confusion about whether we're discussing genetic ancestry, language & culture, nationality, etc.

    "Celts"... is a linguistic term really. The original Celts, since it is an Indoeuropean language, were Indoeuropeans with R2 Y-chromosomes. By the time they got to southern Germany, Iberia, Britain, northern Italy or wherever, they were thoroughly mixed with other peoples, notably the indigenous (Cro-Magnoid) types. It is pointless to argue what a Celt looked like, as there are multiple answers, all correct in some place and time.

    Even these categories of phenotypes (Brunn, etc.) are problematic, as they obscure the genetic reality. In fact, there are various types which contribute to the European population and in every country, nay in every region and even town, the mixture varies. We can only be certain about statistical probabilities... in Italy you will LIKELY have more of one of the Neolithic types than in Norway. In Russia you will likely have more Indoeuropean genes than in Ireland.

    Outside of Europe, it is the same. Look at the various genotype maps on this site. Even in West Africa there is a healthy dose of Y-chromosome R types... so African-Americans were often already mixed with "whites" even before being brought to America! And so on...

    We're all human. "Race" is impossible to classify or categorize with any certainty or precision, due to mixing and the complex array of splitting of human groups. What is important really is ETHNICITY, and that is entirely cultural... meaning it is not somatic... it's in the mind.

    I could not agree more.

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    The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

    The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

    Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

    Stop your fantasies please...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

    The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

    Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

    Stop your fantasies please...
    Fantasies indeed.

    In addition, the "Gauls" in Italy were probably mainly Celticised Ligurians and Rhaetians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?
    The North is the most populated region after Lisbon and surrounding towns. The center is somewhere in between and the south has only 8% of the country's total population (guess you glossed over that in my previous post). The levels are trivial and ONLY for mt-DNA. SS Y-DNA is essentially 0%, Again, no one is sure where the majority of "SS" mt-DNA originated. The SS type found in Iberia may well be very old and possibly Eurasian in origin.

    Why do we continue to discuss this nonsense?
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 08-07-09 at 04:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The various parts of Greece have little or no SS African mtDNA. Some parts of Italy do while other parts of Italy have a zero presence in this report.
    Berber (NW African) Y chromosomes reach 18.6 pc in Cantabria, the European maximum recorded so far, and can nearby Portugal be much less?
    Arabs and Berbers are mostly Caucasoid not SS Africans, of course.
    I said NEAR EAST, Arabic. Do you consider ALL Arabs white?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The North is the most populated region after Lisbon and surrounding towns. The center is somewhere in between and the south has only 8% of the country's total population (guess you glossed over that in my previous post The levels are trivial only for mt-DNA. SS Y-DNA is essentially 0%, Again, no one is sure where the majority of "SS" mt-DNA originated.

    Why do we continue to discuss this nonsense?
    Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
    BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?
    What is your purpose in all this? What is your problem? Read ALL the studies. Read the qualifiers. Read the criticisms. When you average it all out the levels are trivial and reflect ONLY "SS" mt-DNA, not "SS" Y-DNA which is effectively 0% (ZERO).

    This is a foolish conversation...
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 08-07-09 at 01:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
    BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.
    You are an ignorant fool and have come here just to create trouble. I really don't care what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
    BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.
    Of course it has a genetic meaning, certainly in the North West and North East of Portugal and Galicia it does. Northern Portugal was part of ancient Gallaecia. Same people.

    Look, I have nothing further to say. You obviously have some sort of sick agenda.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 08-07-09 at 01:37.

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    Genetically, the Portuguese are just Celticised people of South-west Europe, mostly dark of hair, eye and skin, with more SS African admixture than other European nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Of course it has a genetic meaning, certainly in the North West and North East of Portugal and Galicia it does. Northern Portugal was part of ancient Gallaecia. Same people.
    NO ! It has no genetic meaning at all ! Even the name Callaeci is dubious.

    The Nitiobriges around Agen, the Bituriges around Bordeaux had a very celtic name, but what's really celtic about them ? They are part of Gascony which is well known for being a celtised and romanised basque region.

    Even the Arvernes, the most powerful celtic tribe of the antiquity who had the hegemony in Gaul and led the war against Cesar was hardly half celtic !

    Do you think that i lost my regional pride when i learnt that Vercingetorix and his fellow arvernes were a mixed people with a probably dominant non celtic substratum ?

    That's ok to says that Galicia was culturally celtised, but saying that they were genetically celtic is just ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    In addition, the "Gauls" in Italy were probably mainly Celticised Ligurians and Rhaetians.
    Northern Italy is a real mess, the Ligurians (who spoke a celtic dialect), the Rhaetians, the Venetes (related to the Illyrians) and the Etruscs (Mediolanum/Milano was first Melpum, an etruscan settlement) made up most of the population. The celtisation of the padania was probably the fact of infiltrations from the Lepontes tribes (around what's now Tessin) who were early celtised and spoke a very archaic celtic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Genetically, the Portuguese are just Celticised people of South-west Europe, mostly dark of hair, eye and skin, with more SS African admixture than other European nations.
    Now, you are just being plain silly, Velli... Are you so insecure with what you are that you try to provoke and insult people; attempting to paint THE OTHER something he / she / they are not, to assuage the poor image you may have of yourself? That is called a form of mental illness, budster. Time to stop the nonsense. You come off as some angry, frustrated little boy. Take a long look in the mirror.

    OK, so "celtic" is essentially a cultural category, that's easy enough to understand given what we know historically. However, the fact remains that a good part of Western Iberia (particularly the north west) matches or correlates with the haplogroup (more importantly haplotype) dominant in other ACCULTURATED "celtic" regions of Europe's Atlantic Rim.

    As far as SS African MT-DNA goes, all I have to say to you is: LIVERPOOL, BRISTOL, CARDIFF... And, there is NO argument where "SS" DNA (BOTH Y and mt) originated from in those areas.

    Time to move on to productive things...
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 08-07-09 at 20:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    NO ! It has no genetic meaning at all ! Even the name Callaeci is dubious.
    The Nitiobriges around Agen, the Bituriges around Bordeaux had a very celtic name, but what's really celtic about them ? They are part of Gascony which is well known for being a celtised and romanised basque region.
    Even the Arvernes, the most powerful celtic tribe of the antiquity who had the hegemony in Gaul and led the war against Cesar was hardly half celtic !
    Do you think that i lost my regional pride when i learnt that Vercingetorix and his fellow arvernes were a mixed people with a probably dominant non celtic substratum ?
    That's ok to says that Galicia was culturally celtised, but saying that they were genetically celtic is just ridiculous.
    I have no problem with what you are saying. You are pretty much correct.

    Look, I don't believe that a "Celtic gene" exists (anywhere). All I have been saying is that a good part of Western Iberia matches or correlates in haplogroup (and more importantly, haplotype - Atlantic Modal Haplotype) with other "celticized" Atlantic peoples.

    I ask you, why have I been able to trace genetically to people of one family with the surname O'Toole and another named Claren, both from Southern Ireland. Why have I found a connection to Davies in Wales? My family on both sides has always been from Minho, Portugal and Galicia, so why a direct genetic connection to Ireland and Wales?
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 08-07-09 at 16:54.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

    The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

    Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

    Stop your fantasies please...
    Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

    And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

    U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

    It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.

  25. #50
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    I have the L21 marker. I discovered such earlier this year. It's found heavily among the Basques and some other Atlantic Rim peoples.

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