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Think what you want, I don't care.
PD: De admixture? Suspicious...I thought you weren't a Latin American lol
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http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture09103.htmlOriginally Posted by Atilla
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At the bottom of the page you have all the sources that have been used to make that table of haplogroup frequencies. : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin....shtml#Sources
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The study of Adams et al. is non-sense because : 1) They are assuming any haplogroup from the near-east is Sehpardic, when it just entered in Neolithic times like in the rest of Europe, actually Iberia has relatively low levels of these haplogroup compared to the rest of Europe. 2) They are assuming G2a is also jewish, when in fact it peaks in the Caucausus (Georgians), in Europe it peaks in Switzerland/Austria and the Alpine area (actually özi belonged to this haplogroup) 3 ) They are assuming Iberia has only 3 ancestral components : Iberian-Jew-Moor, which is ridiculous since jews and moors were very minoritary populations, and they forget all the Celts, Germanics, Romans, phoenicians, neolithic movemetns, etc. 4 ) They are assumnig that R1b is of Iberian origin, this theory is today outdated 5 ) They are associating haplogropus with ethnicies, that's almost amateurish level 6) They are not taking in account historical known data. The jews were always a minoritary population, maybe less than 2% of the population, 7) They have mixed the Spain and Portugal results.
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The expulsion of the Moors was not in the twinkling of an eye, it cost a lot of time. In the first times it was decided that there would be respected the culture and traditions of the Moors, later there were no possibilities: You cannot live here, it is not as it has been commented: You cannot live although well it is true that there were many deaths because the Moors were presenting battle, to the last case of the Alpujarras I send.
The expulsion was massive and well it is true that there were conversions to the Christianity, that Moors children caught as servants, but if for example in that epoch in Valency 30 % of the population was Moslem, it carries out a massive expulsion, bearing in mind that there was less population, that it could not even take trains, planes, forge documents of identity and that the population and authorities would be with the ears more stiff than a wolf: who could remain in Spain being a Moor in those epochs?, since the converted ones and those who were done sirvie bearing in mind as it indexes 30 % of Valency, 20 %, 10 %, when it was a massive expulsion and without contemplations, so it should have been very low so much per cent of Moors who remained in Spain, this is what we believe and feel in the collective subconscious, without need of information. The fact is that it is very strong to give to a people an identity that it does not have. Also those who remained at this point of the movie are already Spanish.
And I think that if they should remain an enormous number of Moors in Spain, they would have done community secretly, histories that would have come until our days, and quite these histories it would be in the oral tradition of many current families and it is not like that.
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You are confusing moors for moriscos. Those in Valencia were moriscos. Most were just ethnic spaniards who converted to Islam and then Chirstian forced them to convert again.
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Valencia since as the rest. Anyway when Al-Andalus was already a part of the Moslem world there would be a circulation of the people: or was Al Al-andalus andalus isolated of the rest of the Islamic world?, I do not believe, we had to be the jewel of the crown in version it resides. Later when everything finished the relations never broke forever and Spain continued his splendid career. It should have been an incredible epoch, Spain having to attend to his wars with England, controlling the Netherlands, America, to have just thrown the Moors, the truth is that it is exhausting, we need a time to recover, and certainly, the Moors are already again here...
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It is quite laughable that people intent on browning Spaniards, even at the risk of looking totally foolish, keep bringing up the Adams, et al. "pseudo study". That bit of research (I'm using the word loosely here) has been severely criticized for faulty assumptions and inappropriate methodology. It's been debunked numerous times. Even some of the scientists who participated in the study no longer support the results. Pathetic...
All one has to do is examine the latest autosomal DNA scores for the Iberian region; Spaniards and Portuguese are predominantly Western European and their Med component is actually modest. SW Asian (Mid East) and West Asian levels are very low and, in some cases, do not rise above noise levels. N. African affinities average between 2.5 - 6% and, as previously mentioned, are mostly ancient.
Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 04-10-11 at 04:24.
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lol, he also said in the other thread "architecture celtic" instead of "celtic architecture". Sounds like the typical mistake a spanish speaker would do. Irish my foot.
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n17175647/
Since Moors where only from berber and not arab stock, then as per the numbers above a percentage could be found for this in Spain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15204363
http://www.wafin.com/genes.pdf
To be considered is where the berbers originated from prior to spain and north Africa. That is the question to ask.
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Of course it is the typical mistake.
My vote is that we are dealing with the same Canek as time ago. Same pattern posting absurd studies, like for example the one claiming native american ancestry for Scandinavians.
Mega-lol
And totally agree with Cambria. The general interpretation of the new Dodecad results is Iberians are predominantly Southwestern, with the lowest Southeastern in all Southern Europe, wich peaks in Armenians. Adding the Northwestern it's obvious that the total Western score is very high. Also, some regions show very special features, as the Basque country, with higher Northwestern than the average, and also ethnic Catalans, who seem to have the peculiarity of a very low Southeastern (notably lower than the average Northern European) having instead a high Southwestern.
That's not what I understand for being "typical Med."
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Wasn't there another member here from Baltimore (so he claimed) a while back who was posting nonsense about Spaniards similar to Atilla?
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According to what I've read, the original Berbers were Eurasian and migrated from the Upper Middle East and very possibly the Caspian region. These people were far different than what is found today in North Africa. My guess is that, phenotypically, this ancient population group resembled the endogamous Berber tribes that exist today, such as the Kaybel.
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Full ancestry studies show that N. African influences are a rather minor element in Iberia (Spain and Portugal). Both countries are overwhelmingly West Euro. See the latest Eurogenes, Dodedad and McDonald tables. We should be discussing the dominant genetic influences in Iberia not those that have much lower genome significance.
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The discussion is over already. You need to grow up. All the autosomal projects going on show the north-african influence in the 2-3% range for spanairds, and that's if we include andalusians (Behar et al.). For nothern-spaniards is 0-2%. Why such obsession for something that is so low ?? Actually our european scores are on par or even higher than rest of Europe. So please, let's focus on things that matter. Spain is, run after run, with consistency, a mix of aprox. 50-60% Atlantic/Western and the rest south-Europe, with very low near-east influences. That makes us quite different from the rest of Southern-Europeans.
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As I said, the new Calculator from Dodecad, shows the average Spaniards and Portuguese clearly distinctive from the rest, and it's not the first time this happens. Using a North Atlantic cluster, Iberians get easily a substantial amount, and checking Western allele frequencies like the last mentioned does, Iberians are between the most Western in all Europe. ¿Who cares about a little bit African having very low Southeastern, West Asian and Southwest Asian in comparison with the rest?
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Hi Frank, that page isn't scientific...is just a blog.
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Population Structure, Admixture, and Aging-Related Phenotypes in African American Adults: The Cardiovascular Health Study This is a scientific survey...notice how any "latinamerican" guys write ADMIXTURE. Come on...By the way this is the link http://www.cell.com/AJHG/searchresul...tPage=&x=0&y=0.
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Hi sile, no way...the raiders of hispania were bereber and ARABS. THAT'S A FACT.
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Stop with the codswallop already! Some people just can't acknowledge reality even if it hits them over the head like a ton of bricks. Completely clueless fools...
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Stop with the drollery little guy. You are a South American hater, same pattern and clear evidence according to de way you write.
You betrayed yourself with such pathetic mistake. Time to visit the psychiatrist.
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Gentlemen, mind your languages.
Regardless of that, I'm running out of patience with this thread.
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Check this out: Arab and Berber forces then remained in control for more than five centuries, with a gradual withdrawal toward Andalusia in the south and a final expulsion in 1492. Today, signs of this lengthy Islamic occupation are abundantly obvious in the place names, language, archaeology, 18 architecture, and other cultural traits of Spain and Portugal, but its demographic impact is less clear.http://download.cell.com/AJHG/pdf/PI...ermediate=true
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What's up taranis around your patience, I'm trying to debate based on facts and surveys. or What do you mean?
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In addition, all recent autosomal DNA studies more than confirm the haplogroup information provided by Eupedia.
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