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Thread: The Celts of Iberia

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    Post The Celts of Iberia



    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You can also see phenotypical differences between populations with the same dominant Y-haplogroup.

    My ancestors came to Scotland from the Garfagnana area of north-west Tuscany which has a 76 pc incidence of haplogroup R1b, the same haplogroup that prevails in Scotland and Ireland.
    Phenotypically, few Garfagnini look Scots or Irish and possible different subclades of R1b cannot account for these phenotypical differences.

    Question: Who looks more similar, Rib3 Northern Iberians and Irish or non R1b3 southern Italians and Irish?

    I'm not saying that being in the same haplogroup means you look the same, or even similar, but statistically it makes a contribution to appearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Question: Who looks more similar, Rib3 Northern Iberians and Irish or non R1b3 southern Italians and Irish?

    I'm not saying that being in the same haplogroup means you look the same, or even similar, but statistically it makes a contribution to appearance.

    I don't think there are many (if any) large "Brunn" types in northern Iberia while they are the single biggest type in Ireland and present in Scotland.

    By "Brunn" I mean the tall, large-boned, large-faced, snub-tipped-nosed, blondish or reddish phenotype which is the well-known caricature of an Irishman.
    Caricatures are merely exaggerations of the truth.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I don't think there are many (if any) large "Brunn" types in northern Iberia while they are the single biggest type in Ireland and present in Scotland.
    By "Brunn" I mean the tall, large-boned, large-faced, snub-tipped-nosed, blondish or reddish phenotype which is the well-known caricature of an Irishman.
    Caricatures are merely exaggerations of the truth.
    I've seen any number of people of Irish and/or Scottish descent that can easily pass for Iberian, certainly Northern or Central Iberian. How about George Clooney, to use an example most people can relate to? Sean Connery?

    I'm not saying all Irish and Northern Iberians look alike. That's not possible since the genetic influences are not identical for both. However, the two clearly share a genetic substratum. Where do you think the Melisians (sp?) (original Irish) came from. Similarities do occur more often than you think... In the end, who really cares, or should care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I don't think there are many (if any) large "Brunn" types in northern Iberia while they are the single biggest type in Ireland and present in Scotland.
    By "Brunn" I mean the tall, large-boned, large-faced, snub-tipped-nosed, blondish or reddish phenotype which is the well-known caricature of an Irishman.
    Caricatures are merely exaggerations of the truth.
    I don't see "Brunns" as a majority type in those countries. I've been to Scotland at least a dozen times and noticed a number of different physical varieties. Some are taller, more heavy boned Germanic / Nordic types but there are plenty of softer Atlantic or Atlanto-Mediterranean individuals as well. With all due respect, all of my wife's side (Scottish) and half of my son's bloodline hardly look like specimens from a professional wrestling circus...
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 07-07-09 at 00:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    I don't see "Brunns" as a majority type in those countries. I've been to Scotland at least a dozen times and noticed a number of different physical varieties. Some are taller, more heavy boned Germanic / Nordic types but there are plenty of softer Atlantic or Atlanto-Mediterranean individuals as well. With all due respect, all of my wife's side and half of my son's bloodline hardly look like specimens from a professional wrestling circus...
    I live in Scotland and have seen thousands of people of Irish descent living in Scotland and in Ireland itself.

    Ireland not Scotland is the main Brunn centre but the majority both of Irish or Scots despite the common possession of a predominant R1b haplogroup simply do not resemble physically (especially in their usually large head size and big-boned nature) the bulk of Iberians from anywhere between Andalusia and the Algarve and the Pyrenees, R1b or not.

    There are only a few examples of Germanic types and fewer Brunn/Borreby types in Iberia so the presence or absence of R1b does not tell us a great deal.

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    You must look at autosomes and genome-wide studies for relationships between peoples.

    Y-DNA studies are vitiated by the problems of foundation effects, genetic drift and small numerical samples.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Most Iberians are Mediterraneans, some tall, some shorter, with the addition of a few Alpines and Dinarics and fewer Nordics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I live in Scotland and have seen thousands of people of Irish descent living in Scotland and in Ireland itself.
    Ireland not Scotland is the main Brunn centre but the majority both of Irish or Scots despite the common possession of a predominant R1b haplogroup simply do not resemble physically (especially in their usually large head size and big-boned nature) the bulk of Iberians from anywhere between Andalusia and the Algarve and the Pyrenees, R1b or not.
    There are only a few examples of Germanic types and fewer Brunn/Borreby types in Iberia so the presence or absence of R1b does not tell us a great deal.
    I'm not saying that Iberia is full of Brunns, hardly. But you are telling me that in Scotland and Ireland these types are all over the place? I haven't seen that many Brunns in Scotland. I asked my Scottish wife about it just now and she tells me those people are not a real majority, even in Ireland. Of course Scots and Irish are going to look different than Iberians, even Northern Iberians, on average. Like, what's the big wup. My wife's family is ALL Scottish and there is not one there that looks like a Brunn... Some have big heads, however...
    Just relax... All in fun. No need to get irritated...
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 07-07-09 at 02:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Most Iberians are Mediterraneans, some tall, some shorter, with the addition of a few Alpines and Dinarics and fewer Nordics.
    Mediterranean and ATLANTO-Mediterranean. There is a difference between the two. The substratum is Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I live in Scotland and have seen thousands of people of Irish descent living in Scotland and in Ireland itself.
    Ireland not Scotland is the main Brunn centre but the majority both of Irish or Scots despite the common possession of a predominant R1b haplogroup simply do not resemble physically (especially in their usually large head size and big-boned nature) the bulk of Iberians from anywhere between Andalusia and the Algarve and the Pyrenees, R1b or not.
    There are only a few examples of Germanic types and fewer Brunn/Borreby types in Iberia so the presence or absence of R1b does not tell us a great deal.
    Hey Vall, I take it back. I did find some "Brunn" Iberians, there are a bunch on Portugal"s National Rugby team, seriously. I'll see if I can provide some links...

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    mt-DNA is even more difficult to deal with. Much more prone to mutation.

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    The Scots and Irish (not all, obviously but far far more than in Iberia) are a large-boned, large-faced people while most (obviously not all) Iberians are of a smaller-boned constitution.

    The mean differences between Scots/Irish on one side and ALL Iberians on the other are so marked that they shatter this putative R1b "unity" (the different sub-clades notwithstanding).

    Stature varies everywhere and with improved living standards South Europeans are closing the gap with North Europeans.

    I don't follow this Atlanto-Mediterranean equals Celtic business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The Scots and Irish (not all, obviously but far far more than in Iberia) are a large-boned, large-faced people while most (obviously not all) Iberians are of a smaller-boned constitution.
    The mean differences between Scots/Irish on one side and ALL Iberians on the other are so marked that they shatter this putative R1b "unity" (the different sub-clades notwithstanding).
    Stature varies everywhere and with improved living standards South Europeans are closing the gap with North Europeans.
    I don't follow this Atlanto-Mediterranean equals Celtic business.
    The two LARGEST waves of Celtic migration were into Iberia, period. That is an historical fact that cannot be denied. Celts practically saturated two thirds of Iberia. Go take a look at the numerous Celtic ruins in Spain and Portugal. And, guess where the majority of Celts originated from that populated the British Isles? They sure as h*** did not come from Ireland!... Just what is your definition of Celtic, anyway? And, don't tell me it only applies to the peoples you find in the British Isles and Brittany... nonsense.

    The original Celts were likely mainly Alpine and hardly resembled the people in Britain you describe. Everyone knows that Nordic and Germanic settlement was higher in the British Isles than Iberia. That makes a BIG difference in the evolution of phenotype. What is this all about, Vill? Why so defensive? I never said that Iberians generally resemble Scottish and Irish. Some do, but most don't. But do not suggest that the genetic substratum and other heritage elements for the central, northern and western ends of Iberia are not Celtic. It makes no sense at all. The evidence is overwhelming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The two LARGEST waves of Celtic migration were into Iberia, period. That is an historical fact that cannot be denied. Celts practically saturated two thirds of Iberia. Go take a look at the numerous Celtic ruins in Spain and Portugal. And, guess where the majority of Celts originated from that populated the British Isles? They sure as h*** did not come from Ireland!... Just what is your definition of Celtic, anyway? And, don't tell me it only applies to the peoples you find in the British Isles and Brittany... nonsense.

    The original Celts were likely mainly Alpine and hardly resembled the people in Britain you describe. Everyone knows that Nordic and Germanic settlement was higher in the British Isles than Iberia. That makes a BIG difference in the evolution of phenotype. What is this all about, Vill? Why so defensive? I never said that Iberians generally resemble Scottish and Irish. Some do, but most don't. But do not suggest that the genetic substratum and other heritage elements for the central, northern and western ends of Iberia are not Celtic. It makes no sense at all. The evidence is overwhelming!

    First you say Atlanto-Mediterraneans are "Celtic". You present no evidence to prove this.

    Now you claim the Celts who invaded Iberia were Alpine even though brachycephalic Alpines are few in Portugal and scarce in Spain outside the Cantabrian mountains.

    The point I have been making (which you also concede above) is that despite all this R1b business the Scots and Irish generally do not look like Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    First you say Atlanto-Mediterraneans are "Celtic". You present no evidence to prove this.
    Now you claim the Celts who invaded Iberia were Alpine even though brachycephalic Alpines are few in Portugal and scarce in Spain outside the Cantabrian mountains.
    The point I have been making (which you also concede above) is that despite all this R1b business the Scots and Irish generally do not look like Iberians.
    What is your definition of Celtic? You didn't answer that question, did you? Just what is a Celt supposed to look like, a "Brunn"?... You don't actually think there are no reasonable numbers of Atlanto-Mediterranean types in the British Isles, do you? Have you been to Wales, Southern Ireland and Cornwall recently? That phenotype is not all that hard to find in those regions, is it? Again, what is this REALLY all about? Check your history.. Your interpretation of the facts is biased. Why?...
    I already responded that the major phenotype differences are NOT related to the genetic substratum, but much more to the differences in the population mixes over time and, of course, there are also geographic reasons. Obviously, there is substantially more Nordic / Germanic in Britain, so the phenotypes are generally different than what you find in Iberia. Europeans all share basic equivalencies but they are not the same (but some peoples are closer to some than to others).
    In Spain and Portugal there are Mediterranean influences to go with the Celtic underpinnings. Germanic and Nordic contributions are minor, with the exception of pockets in the north and north central - Suevian and Visigothic settlement (e.g., a recent and extensive Y-DNA study revealed major regions of Northern Portugal with I (Y-DNA) levels of nearly 16% in one case and 18% in another). Check Beleza et al. (2006).
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 07-07-09 at 17:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    What is your definition of Celtic? You didn't answer that question, did you? Just what is a Celt supposed to look like, a "Brunn"?... You don't actually think there are no reasonable numbers of Atlanto-Mediterranean types in the British Isles, do you? Have you been to Wales, Southern Ireland and Cornwall recently? That phenotype is not all that hard to find in those regions, is it? Again, what is this REALLY all about? Check your history.. Your interpretation of the facts are biased. Why?...
    I already responded that the major phenotype differences are NOT related to the genetic substratum, but much more to the differences in the population mixes over time and, of course, geographic reasons. Obviously, there is substantially more Nordic / Germanic in Britain, so the phenotypes are generally different than what you find in Iberia. Europeans all share basic equivalencies but they are not the same (but some peoples are closer to some than to others).
    In Spain and Portugal there are Mediterranean influences to go with the Celtic underpinnings. Germanic and Nordic contributions are minor, with the exception of pockets in the north and north central - Suevian and Visigothic settlement (e.g., a recent and extensive Y-DNA study revealed major regions of Northern Portugal with I (Y-DNA) levels of nearly 16% in one case and 18% in another). Check Beleza et al. (2006).

    You are unclear as to what "Celt" refers too in a physical sense.

    First you suggested Atlanto-Mediterranean, then Alpine and now is it Atlanto-Mediterranean again?

    Phenotype reflects genotype to a large degree and we have in Ireland:Brunns, Nordics and Atlanto-Mediterraneans above all, and in that order. Scotland is similar but with more Nordic than Brunn.

    As for Iberia, we have a mixture of small Gracile Mediterraneans, tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans and a few Dinarics, Alpines (mostly in Galicia and Asturias) and a few Nordics with very few Borreby/Brunn types.

    The term "Celtic" should refer to linguistic and cultural matters only because numerous books have been written about them and there is no general consensus as to their main phenotype.

    The "Celts" may indeed have varied regionally in physical typology.


    All I can concede is that Celtic place names are widespread in the Iberian Peninsula.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You are unclear as to what "Celt" refers too in a physical sense.
    First you suggested Atlanto-Mediterranean, then Alpine and now is it Atlanto-Mediterranean again?
    Phenotype reflects genotype to a large degree and we have in Ireland:Brunns, Nordics and Atlanto-Mediterraneans above all, and in that order. Scotland is similar but with more Nordic than Brunn.
    As for Iberia, we have a mixture of small Gracile Mediterraneans, tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans and a few Dinarics, Alpines (mostly in Galicia and Asturias) and a few Nordics with very few Borreby/Brunn types.
    The term "Celtic" should refer to linguistic and cultural matters only because numerous books have been written about them and there is no general consensus as to their main phenotype.
    The "Celts" may indeed have varied regionally in physical typology.
    All I can concede is that Celtic place names are widespread in the Iberian Peninsula.
    Iberia has a Celtic substratum, it is exceedingly clear. Case closed. The evidence of Celtic civilization in Iberia is overwhelming, not JUST place names but ruins... THOUSANDS of ruins. One of the largest and most famous in the world (Citania de Briteiros) is situated only about 100 kilometers or so south east of my village. Check out a listing of Iberian Celtic tribes on WIKI. Check out the ancient Celtic population maps. Iberia was SATURATED with Celtic peoples!

    The Celts that migrated to Iberia and then on to Britain came from central Europe (includes the Alpine region). The evidence is clear.

    BTW, you going to pay a visit to Wales, and / or Southern Ireland and / or Cornwall to determine the percentage of Atlanto-Mediterranean types? Give us an ACCURATE report of your findings if and when you do...

    Yes, I agree that the term Celtic should refer to culture and language, NOT to a particular phenotype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Iberia has a Celtic substratum, it is exceedingly clear. Case closed. The evidence of Celtic civilization in Iberia is overwhelming, not JUST place names but ruins... THOUSANDS of ruins. One of the largest and most famous in the world (Citania de Briteiros) is situated only about 100 kilometers or so south east of my village. Check out a listing of Iberian Celtic tribes on WIKI. Check out the ancient Celtic population maps. Iberia was SATURATED with Celtic peoples!

    The Celts that migrated to Iberia and then on to Britain came from central Europe (includes the Alpine region). The evidence is clear.

    BTW, you going to pay a visit to Wales, and / or Southern Ireland and / or Cornwall to determine the percentage of Atlanto-Mediterranean types? Give us an ACCURATE report of your findings if and when you do...

    Yes, I agree that the term Celtic should refer to culture and language, NOT to a particular phenotype.

    What a metamorphis.

    Earlier you wrote that the original Celts were Alpine.

    Now you go on about Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

    So the Celts have changed from being brachycephalic broad-faced Alpines into dolichocephalic, narrow-faced Atlanto-Mediterraneans?

    Remarkable!

    BTW the Portuguese are more small-statured Gracile Mediterraneans than tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

    You are Celtic or Celtiberian culturally but physically the term "Celt" is highly controversial.

    "Celts" probably varied regionally in a physical sense and were more a linguistic/cultural entity.

    The Romans described the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and curly-haired like Iberians while the Caledonians were described as big and red-headed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What a metamorphis.
    Earlier you wrote that the original Celts were Alpine.
    Now you go on about Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
    So the Celts have changed from being brachycephalic broad-faced Alpines into dolichocephalic, narrow-faced Atlanto-Mediterraneans?
    Remarkable!
    BTW the Portuguese are more small-statured Gracile Mediterraneans than tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
    You are Celtic or Celtiberian culturally but physically the term "Celt" is highly controversial.
    "Celts" probably varied regionally in a physical sense and were more a linguistic/cultural entity.
    The Romans described the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and curly-haired like Iberians while the Caledonians were described as big and red-headed.
    Yes, of course the Celts varied regionally since they mixed with local non-Celtic tribes. As a consequence, people of Celtic heritage do not ALL look alike. Some "Celts" look Germanic / Nordic and others more Atlantic or "Atlanto-Mediterranan" (such as a large area of Western Iberia and parts of Brittany, Wales, Ireland and a good deal of Cornwall). No great mystery... I think we can agree on this, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Yes, of course the Celts varied regionally since they mixed with local non-Celtic tribes. As a consequence, people of Celtic heritage do not ALL look alike. Some "Celts" look Germanic / Nordic and others more Atlantic or "Atlanto-Mediterranan" (such as a large area of Western Iberia and parts of Brittany, Wales, Ireland and a good deal of Cornwall). No great mystery... I think we can agree on this, yes?

    Yes, we can agree on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What a metamorphis.

    Earlier you wrote that the original Celts were Alpine.

    Now you go on about Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

    So the Celts have changed from being brachycephalic broad-faced Alpines into dolichocephalic, narrow-faced Atlanto-Mediterraneans?

    Remarkable!

    BTW the Portuguese are more small-statured Gracile Mediterraneans than tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

    You are Celtic or Celtiberian culturally but physically the term "Celt" is highly controversial.

    "Celts" probably varied regionally in a physical sense and were more a linguistic/cultural entity.

    The Romans described the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and curly-haired like Iberians while the Caledonians were described as big and red-headed.
    BTW, what gives you the notion that Iberians are all that swarthy and curly-haired? A small number are such (possibly in similar numbers to what you find among the Welsh), but "swarthy and curly-haired" is hardly a general phenotype in Spain or Portugal.

    Portuguese are more Glacial-Mediterranean in the southern regions, mainly Alentejo and the Algarve (which, BTW, amount to 8% of the country's population). The capital area of Lisbon has all different native types, from Mediterranean to Atlanto-Mediterranean to Alpine to Nordic. The central part is primarily Atlanto-Mediterranean, some Alpine and a little Germanic / Nordic and the north, essentially Atlanto-Mediterranean with a bit of Alpine along with some Germanic / Nordic strains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    BTW, what gives you the notion that Iberians are all that swarthy and curly-haired? A small number are such (possibly in similar numbers to what you find among the Welsh), but "swarthy and curly-haired" is hardly a general phenotype in Spain or Portugal.

    Portuguese are more Glacial-Mediterranean in the southern regions, mainly Alentejo and the Algarve (which, BTW, amount to 8% of the country's population). The capital area of Lisbon has all different native types, from Mediterranean to Atlanto-Mediterranean to Alpine to Nordic. The central part is primarily Atlanto-Mediterranean, some Alpine and a little Germanic / Nordic and the north, essentially Atlanto-Mediterranean with a bit of Alpine along with some Germanic / Nordic strains.

    The description of Silures being as dark as Iberians is Tacitus' not mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The description of Silures being as dark as Iberians is Tacitus' not mine.
    That ancient statement hardly reflects today's reality in Iberia. In Europe, "swarthy and curly-haired" may generally only apply to a percentage of people in the southeastern Mediterranean; parts of southern Greece, Malta, Cyprus...

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    In 2007 a survey by Achilli et alia was published concerning the extent of mitrochondrial DNA of Subsaharan African origin. Mitrochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to all her children but only daughters pass it on to their daughters.

    The highest figures in Europe were found for Portugal and Spanish Galicia:

    South Portugal...10.84 per cent
    Central Portugal...6.4 pc
    Galicia (Spain)...3.7 pc
    North Portugal...3.19 pc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    In 2007 a survey by Achilli et alia was published concerning the extent of mitrochondrial DNA of Subsaharan African origin. Mitrochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to all her children but only daughters pass it on to their daughters.
    The highest figures in Europe were found for Portugal and Spanish Galicia:
    South Portugal...10.84 per cent
    Central Portugal...6.4 pc
    Galicia (Spain)...3.7 pc
    North Portugal...3.19 pc
    Why in the world are you posting this? What relevance does this have here? Are you trying to be provocative?

    Do you know (I'm sure you do) that Sub-Saharan DNA is found in ALL European countries (yes even in Scandinavia) and that scientists are not even clear if the origins are in fact Sub-Saharan. The subclades found in Iberia and much of Europe are so old most of them may have originated in Asia and they pre-date by eons the Atlantic Slave Trade. Also "Sub-Saharan" Y-DNA in Iberia is essentially 0%. Accounting for variances in population levels, the average "Sub-Saharan" mt-DNA totals in Portugal and Spain are roughly 3%, on the same level as France.

    Do you know a damn about the history of Southern Portugal (Alentejo and the Algarve)? Are you aware that the regions make up only 8% of the country's population? Do you know that the mt-DNA samplings collected for most of the studies conducted in South Portugal are NON-REPRESENTATIVE, because they included small, isolated communities who's individuals had been historically ostracized from greater society due to disease and slavery? Look up the history of Sado and Alcacer do Sal and educate yourself.

    BTW, want to make a bet on the levels of Sub-Saharan DNA existing in Britain's Slave Trade cities, like Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff? Want to guess how many mixed bloods in Liverpool can trace their ancestry back to 17th-18th England? Come off it, man... Grow up!

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