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Thread: Predicted haplogroups of early Middle Eastern civilizations

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    Arrow Predicted haplogroups of early Middle Eastern civilizations



    I am currently reading Nicholas Ostler's great book Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World. The third chapter is dedicated to the languages of the early Middle Eastern civilizations. If there is a link at all between languages and genetics, it is among Neolithic tribes and early civilizations that the correlation should be the strongest, before empires imposed their own (written) language on others.

    The first written language in Mesopotamia was Sumerian, apparently unrelated to any other known language, except possibly Georgian. If the a relation with Georgian does indeed exist, it could mean that the early Sumerian belonged to haplogroup G. Based on present Y-DNA frequencies in southern Iraq, it would be more likely that J1 was the predominant haplogroup in the Sumerian city-states of Ur, Uruk, Nippur, Eridu, etc.

    Sumerian was replaced by Akkadian in Mesopotamia. Akkadian is a Semitic language related to the tribal tongues of the desert nomads from Syria to Palestine. Semitic people and languages are typically associated with haplogroups E1b1b, T, J1 and J2. Akkadian being from northern Mesopotamia, where J2 is prevalent, early Akkadian speakers were likely to belong overwhelmingly to this haplogroup. However, it is likely that the deeper origins of all Afroasiatic languages start exclusively with haplogroup E.

    What is more interesting is the case of the Elamites. Their civilization was centered in the west and the southwest of modern-day Iran, and their language related to Dravidian and languages of the Indus civilization. This South Asian origin could correspond to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup L (and minor presence of H) in southern Iran. Furthermore, the Akkadians are known to have deported many of them in various parts of their empire, as far as the Levant. This would explain the presence of hg L at low frequencies in the Middle East, and notably the Levant.

    The Medes and Persians are supposed to be the Indo-European invaders who brought R1a (and maybe other haplogroups) into the Middle East.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 22-09-09 at 13:49.

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    I would link J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) to Semitic speakers.

    The latter being situated on the coastal parts of the Levant while the first is to be associated with Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites and Bedawi-like tribes (Hebrews).

    J2 (M172+) along with T (M70+) and G (M201+) are to be associated with Na7rain's pre-Semitic civilizations (Sumer, Hurrians, etc...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    I would link J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) to Semitic speakers.

    The latter being situated on the coastal parts of the Levant while the first is to be associated with Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites and Bedawi-like tribes (Hebrews).

    J2 (M172+) along with T (M70+) and G (M201+) are to be associated with Na7rain's pre-Semitic civilizations (Sumer, Hurrians, etc...)

    Yes Sumer, Hurrians, were not Semtic civilizations so G (M201+) is well associated to the first Hebrew tribes before the Semtic invasion of Mesopotamia . Sumer was founded by Caucasus people (Haplogroup G ) Ossetians come from a Analic Indo Iranian origin these tribes and were implied in the Persian Empire as elite people
    Last edited by willy; 16-06-10 at 03:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes Sumer, Hurrians, were not Semtic civilizations so G (M201+) is well associated to the first Hebrew tribes before the Semtic invasion of Mesopotamia . Sumer was founded by Caucasus people (Haplogroup G ) Ossetians come from a Analic Indo Iranian origin these tribes and were implied in the Persian Empire as elite people

    3Ivrim were J1c3d (L147+), not G (M201+).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    3Ivrim were J1c3d (L147+), not G (M201+).
    converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ?

    The oldest Sepharadic Jewish presence in Europe seems to be Ibiza with a high frequency of G2a3b1 in this community. G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes . A cluster of closely related Ashkenazi Jews represent virtually all confirmed G2c persons worldwide, both from private testing, and from academic studies.

    Concentrations of G2a3b1 at Certain Sites :

    The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is in the island of IBIZA off the eastern Spanish coast. Ibiza samples include indentifiable persons from the DYS388=13 subgroup. Because value combinations of the STR marker samples in Ibiza are also common in Sephardic Jewish samples,[8] the haplogroup G in Ibiza might be related to the significant population of Crypto-Jews in Ibiza.[10]

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ?

    The oldest Sepharadic Jewish presence in Europe seems to be Ibiza with a high frequency of G2a3b1 in this community. G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes . A cluster of closely related Ashkenazi Jews represent virtually all confirmed G2c persons worldwide, both from private testing, and from academic studies.

    Concentrations of G2a3b1 at Certain Sites :

    The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is in the island of IBIZA off the eastern Spanish coast. Ibiza samples include indentifiable persons from the DYS388=13 subgroup. Because value combinations of the STR marker samples in Ibiza are also common in Sephardic Jewish samples,[8] the haplogroup G in Ibiza might be related to the significant population of Crypto-Jews in Ibiza.[10]
    Kohanim are J1c3d (L147+), the same goes to all certified Semites.

    3Ivrim were Bedawi-like Semites (Abraham is a semi-nomad).
    None the less, G's presence is to be associated with Mesopotamian/Hurrian Na7rainid converts who followed the Hebrews in their migration and gradually integrated.

    STR aren't to be granted full-trust if you want my advice.

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    Do you know really from where Abraham comes from ?
    Recently, the story of the biblical deluge was connected to the Black Sea, together with the suggestion that the story's pre-Mesopotamian origins might be found in the Pontic basin and also I think the first children of Israel . The first Mesopotamian peoples came from Caucasus (G) so they (Sumer) were invaded by semitic people from the Arabic Peninsula . J1 came from the Arabian peninsula to Mesopotamia I wonder if Abraham was within these invaders ? This is not clear ? Sumer was destroyed by the Semitic arrival and the original people of Mesopotamia was persecuted and forced to integrate the new Arabian " semitic " power so to me the Abraham ' s origin comes from a Sumerian tribe . Anyway since 5000 years ago we can say that many or some subclades of J1 belong to the Jewish heritage . So there is may be no answer about Abraham 's origin except in the old testament ?
    Last edited by willy; 17-06-10 at 01:04.

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    Hebrews as Haplogroup G?

    I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckley612 View Post
    I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.
    as ridiculous when you can read on Eupedia that R1a is the first indo european speaker
    it will be interesting to have more reactions like yours so when we talk about 5000 years ago I am not sure to find a haplogroup melting pot on Mesopotamia . So you are may be right if this is the case all this forum is ridiculous

    I don't talk about Ashkenazi Jews just the origin of the first Hebrews this is not the same thing ...

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    "G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes."

    This is the leap in logic which I mentioned, also you do speak of the Ashkenazi in relation to first Hebrew tribes.
    I do have my own problems with the Hebrews not being Semitic, one very minor reason being word "Semitic", which comes from the progenitor Shem. If Hebrews came from the North rather than the East then the "Semitic" language group would be a huge misnomer.
    A bigger reason I am resistant to that idea is because whenever "facts" are presented without evidence, there seems to be an agenda. Agendas are what is slowing the progress of genetic research. An agenda concerned with the identity of Jewish peoples seems all the more questionable to me.

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    An agenda concerned with the identity of the Indo Europeans - Gimbutas ' theory seems to me more questionable . Did you had any agenda when you made a DNA test ? I think no . The black sea flood is an evidence so I wonder when the Old Testament say something about a big flood if that 's just a story ? If not it would be not a big surprise to me that the initial tribe named Hebrews came from the North Cauvasus or " around the black sea "
    during that period I really think that there was not a very hight " haplogroup melting pot " 8000 years ago . No agenda to me just the truth ! but we will may be never know the " truth " anyway as I said during that time the Israel tribe had time to grow up with many other haplogroups convert as Shem tribes who followed the Hebrews in their migration and gradually integrated . The flood myth has its roots in the Black Sea catastrophe which caused a great dispersion of that peoples this disaster is in the Bible so the people who came to report that myth came logically from that region of the black sea - Caucasus not from the Arabian Peninsula . The black sea flood implied also the future Europeans dispersion from Anatolia to Western Europe during the neolithic . There is an other solution this Flood Myth came from Caucasus to Mesopotamia with the Sumerians tribes so later some Semitic tribes take it in their own believe and wrote the Bible ? In the same idea : Islam is just a copy of the Judeo Christian Monotheism, if you look at Islam this is really a mixture of the Old Testament not an original creation .

    http://www.genomeweb.com/arrays/inte...netic-patterns

    "The researchers reported that the Ashkenazi, Caucasus, Middle Eastern, North African, and Sephardi Jewish populations clustered with non-Jewish populations in the Middle East, particularly Druze and Cypriot groups, suggesting a " close relationship between most contemporary Jews and non-Jewish populations from Levant."

    Other groups with a significant G frequency include Catalan-speaking northern Sardinians and the Druze, who are about 18% G2a. About one-third of Haplogroup G in Iran is in sub-group G1.

    http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...nd-macedonians

    Haplogroup G occurs most frequently in the Caucasus region where half of North Ossetian males are in G, as are about 30% of Georgians and Azerbaijanis.

    A large majority of European G2c’s are Ashkenazi Jews, but so far G2c has been tested in only a small number of people in the Middle East and South Asia. Among Ashkenazi Jews overall, about 10% are in haplogroup G
    Last edited by willy; 17-06-10 at 11:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Do you know really from where Abraham comes from ?
    Recently, the story of the biblical deluge was connected to the Black Sea, together with the suggestion that the story's pre-Mesopotamian origins might be found in the Pontic basin and also I think the first children of Israel . The first Mesopotamian peoples came from Caucasus (G) so they (Sumer) were invaded by semitic people from the Arabic Peninsula . J1 came from the Arabian peninsula to Mesopotamia I wonder if Abraham was within these invaders ? This is not clear ? Sumer was destroyed by the Semitic arrival and the original people of Mesopotamia was persecuted and forced to integrate the new Arabian " semitic " power so to me the Abraham ' s origin comes from a Sumerian tribe . Anyway since 5000 years ago we can say that many or some subclades of J1 belong to the Jewish heritage . So there is may be no answer about Abraham 's origin except in the old testament ?

    You fairly don't understand that Abraham is a descendant of Shem through 3Ever and Arpa5shad (himself brother of Aram and Ashur).

    His ancestors came from the Arabian peninsula and probably arrived with the Akkadians, he was not a mere Sumerian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckley612 View Post
    I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.

    Lets make things clear: He came from Ur, not Sumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    You fairly don't understand that Abraham is a descendant of Shem through 3Ever and Arpa5shad (himself brother of Aram and Ashur).

    His ancestors came from the Arabian peninsula and probably arrived with the Akkadians, he was not a mere Sumerian.
    In that case the Old Testament is a loan the Great Flood myth comes from Sumer
    Ur Sumerian Urim was a city in ancient Sumer
    Myths of Creation and a Great Flood
    The Sumerians had vanished as an identifiable people, but they left behind their myths. The Assyrians adopted and altered Sumerian stories, and they preserved the Sumerian language much as Christians were to preserve Latin. The Babylonians translated Sumerian religious writings, and these Babylonian translations influenced the Hurrians and Hittites. And after the Kassites conquered Babylon they came to accept Babylon's literature as sacred.



    The oldest surviving story
    of a Great Flood
    I think that " First Hebrews " come from the Hurrian - Hittite peoples . Sumerian texts of the great tradition was continued by them . Anyway it does not matter because this tradition was also preserved and may be transformed by " Shem " tribes who is now in the Jewish heritage .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    In that case the Old Testament is a loan the Great Flood myth comes from Sumer
    Ur Sumerian Urim was a city in ancient Sumer
    Myths of Creation and a Great Flood
    The Sumerians had vanished as an identifiable people, but they left behind their myths. The Assyrians adopted and altered Sumerian stories, and they preserved the Sumerian language much as Christians were to preserve Latin. The Babylonians translated Sumerian religious writings, and these Babylonian translations influenced the Hurrians and Hittites. And after the Kassites conquered Babylon they came to accept Babylon's literature as sacred.
    Nonsense, the Bible did borrow external myths though that doesn't resume the originality of the document.

    Let me give you an example: The Qur'an.

    Mu7ammad makes many references to veto-testamentary sources (sometimes erroneous) though that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a "loan" to the TaNaKH.

    The cycles described in Sumerian mythology for sure do not have the same meaning as the Biblical flood as a counter-example.

    You adress the Semitization of Sumerians, these mainly adopted Semitic languages brought by the J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) Akkadians.
    They did not "vanish", their respective haplogroups remained intergrated in the Semitic substratum. The Sumerian language was not preserved and even the deities went through a Semitization process:

    Enlil became Ellil, Inanna became Ishtar and so on...

    The Kasdim were a mere ersatz in the region and could be an off-shot of the Elamites (J2 (M172+) + L (M20+) [the latter being disproportionnate in Druze communities]).


    I think that " First Hebrews " come from the Hurrian - Hittite peoples . Sumerian texts of the great tradition was continued by them . Anyway it does not matter because this tradition was also preserved and may be transformed by " Shem " tribes who is now in the Jewish heritage .
    Then you ought to explain why Ashkenazi Kohanim (to whom I belong) are more than 80% J1c3d (L147+) whereas Shomroni Kohanim (who can also trace their whole lineage) are E1b1b1a (M78+). I see no Gs here so please, do bring more concrete evidence.

    Moreover, according to Shen's study on the Israeli population, the frequency of G (M201+) doesn't exceed 5%.

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    There was a Semitization of Sumerians and Abraham came from the Arabian Peninsula to Mesopotamia during the Akkadian invasion of the Sumerian Empire I agree . So Abraham 's history start at Ur (Urim city of Sumer) and Abraham descends from Noha this is not explained in the Old Testament that Abraham came from the Arabian peninsula we just have " Ur " . I just want to say that's not obvious to link the flood area to the Arabian Peninsula so geological features now show that this myth appears to be related to the catastrophe of the Black Sea. Biblical tradition relates that deluge and Noha and therefore the original people (Hebrews) may just came from that area . We can keep a critical mind . Now you can see on Google how haplogroup G is connected to the Jewish heritage and also to the black sea - Caucasus area . History shows that religions are successive loans .

    On the same way I criticize also the origin of Indo-European language. The only proven source of this language comes from the Hittites and to me this is really an aberration to see theses who want to combine the first Indo European to R1a . So to explaining that the Hittites were Indo-Europeans we can read that Hittites have invaded Anatolia so according Renfrew I think that's idea is completely false .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    There was a Semitization of Sumerians and Abraham came from the Arabian Peninsula to Mesopotamia during the Akkadian invasion of the Sumerian Empire I agree . So Abraham 's history start at Ur (Urim city of Sumer) and Abraham descends from Noha this is not explained in the Old Testament that Abraham came from the Arabian peninsula we just have " Ur " .
    Not Abraham himself but his ancestors (remember that his ancestor's name, 3Ever; comes from the trilittary root ע:ב:ר which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern arabia to Mesopotamia).

    I just want to say that's not obvious to link the flood area to the Arabian Peninsula so geological features now show that this myth appears to be related to the catastrophe of the Black Sea.
    I do not link the flood to the arabian peninsula, for mount Ararat is mentionned in the Bible.

    Biblical tradition relates that deluge and Noha and therefore the original people (Hebrews) may just came from that area . We can keep a critical mind . Now you can see on Google how haplogroup G is connected to the Jewish heritage and also to the black sea - Caucasus area . History shows that religions are successive loans .
    Eventually, it would be plain stupid to deny G2c's Jewish role.
    The only fact that I point out is that this marker was not the original Hebrew marker, merely a Sumerian/Hurrian one which eventually followed Abraham's clan and migration. (If we accept the Bible as a reasonable source that is)

    I say the same thing for the origin of Indo-European language. The only proven source of this language comes from the Hittites and tor me this is really an aberration to see theses who want to combine the first Indo European to R1a .
    Indeed, G (M201+) seems to be the most reasonable link to the origin of IE languages. In my view R1a1 peoples mainly borrowed this language to G (M201+) original IE speakers and intergrated it into their culture who provided an eventual substratum (same scheme for R1b1b2 who does retain a Palaeolithic-Basque role according to some of its subclades [especially R1b1b2a1a2], no matter what all IE-centrics'll babble about; some R1b1b2 clades are clearly non-IE).

    I mean... Just look at its distribution!



    Compare to that of the most reasonable IE Urheimat:







    And don't give me the "haplogroup clade's diversity= place of origin" argument unless you consider NYC as the origin of mankind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What is more interesting is the case of the Elamites. Their civilization was centered in the west and the southwest of modern-day Iran, and their language related to Dravidian and languages of the Indus civilization. This South Asian origin could correspond to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup L (and minor presence of H) in southern Iran. Furthermore, the Akkadians are known to have deported many of them in various parts of their empire, as far as the Levant. This would explain the presence of hg L at low frequencies in the Middle East, and notably the Levant.
    That's reasonable and fournishes a valuable explanation to the staggering high L frequencies amongst the Druze.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    That's reasonable and fournishes a valuable explanation to the staggering high L frequencies amongst the Druze.
    It seems right about the IE . G seems clearly associated to it and also to the Kura-Araxes culture. About the Jewish heritage, It does not clearly explain from where Abraham 's ancestors came when you say " which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern Arabia to Mesopotamia " It means that Abraham's ancestors came to Ur but from where ? you say may be from eastern Arabia OK this is possible . So About the Great Flood Mount Ararat is the tallest peak in modern Turkey the Great Flood is not a legend this is the flood of the Black Sea If we believe in the Testament Noah was there and Abraham 's ancestors
    Last edited by willy; 18-06-10 at 03:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    It seems right about the IE . G seems clearly associated to it and also to the Kura-Araxes culture. About the Jewish heritage, It does not clearly explain from where Abraham 's ancestors came when you say " which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern Arabia to Mesopotamia " It means that Abraham's ancestors came to Ur but from where ? you say may be from eastern Arabia OK this is possible . So About the Great Flood Mount Ararat is the tallest peak in modern Turkey the Great Flood is not a legend this is the flood of the Black Sea If we believe in the Testament Noah was there and Abraham 's ancestors

    One should not forget that this myth was incorporated, Noa7 probably lived in the Arabian penisnula (eastern arabia? Mesopotamia-Na7rain??) hence P-58 arose there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    One should not forget that this myth was incorporated, Noa7 probably lived in the Arabian penisnula (eastern arabia? Mesopotamia-Na7rain??) hence P-58 arose there.
    OK with you : That myth was possibly incorporated in that case this is a Sumerian myth .So it can explain the Sumerians Anatolian - Caucasus origin .

    about this map link where is the main article ?
    http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1...28Y-DNA%29.jpg

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    [QUOTE=Semitic Duwa;358830]



    I mean... Just look at its distribution!







    Do you have the main article of this map below ?

    http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1...28Y-DNA%29.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    OK with you : That myth was possibly incorporated in that case this is a Sumerian myth .So it can explain the Sumerians Anatolian - Caucasus origin .

    about this map link where is the main article ?
    http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1...28Y-DNA%29.jpg

    There is no article, just supposition, you might want to have a look at G (M201+)'s phylogenetic tree.

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    Some of G's clades are also to be asociated with Gutians.

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    converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ?
    It is impossible. Judaism as a religion was created gradually from 1.000 BC until 500 BC, as a reaction to Philistine invaders.

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