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Bosnia has the highest percentage of I2a, but inboth Croatia and Bosnia it is mostly I2a2, not I2a*.
I2a appeared in southern Europe during the Ice Age. It is associated with native Europeans before the spread of agriculture. Because it is very widespread, in ancient times it could be Greek, Dalmatian, Dacian, Illyrian, Roman or even Celtic.
I2a1 is the Western version (Italy, France, Iberia), while I2a2 is Eastern (Balkans, Greece, Poland, Russia). But many people are just I2a. It is possible to know if a regular I2a is more Eastern or Western by comparing STR markers.
Check your STR results for DYS390. If the value is 23 you are likely a Western I2a or I2a1. If it is 24 or 25 you are surely I2a2 or Eastern I2a.
At DYS389-II, if your value is 28 you are probably I2a1. If it is 29 or 30 you could be anything. If it is 31 or 32 you are surely I2a2.
There are other way of knowing, but it would be easier if I could see your results.
so do you advise me to make deep clade test to know if iam I2a2 or I2a1 or i donnot have to do that?This looks clearly like a Dinaric I2a2 to me. Dinaric means from ex-Yugoslavia, or what was called Illyria in Greco-Roman times.
so do you advise me to make deep clade test to know if iam I2a2 or I2a1 or i donnot have to do that?
and finally I have read this Haplogroup I linked to higher incidence of AIDS in HIV patients
here you can find the details http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2009/01/haplogroup-i-linked-to-higher-incidence.html
now my question is Does that mean Mr Maciam that iam very linked to aids?:grin:
...the most important protections come from autosomal mutations such as the CCR5 mutation (most common in North-East Europe, with a peak in Finland).
Are people with this mutation 100% safe from the virus or they just have a smaller chance to contract it? Is it also linked with the mutation that makes people develop AIDS slower after they are infected with HIV?
Check your STR results for DYS390. If the value is 23 you are likely a Western I2a or I2a1. If it is 24 or 25 you are surely I2a2 or Eastern I2a.
At DYS389-II, if your value is 28 you are probably I2a1. If it is 29 or 30 you could be anything. If it is 31 or 32 you are surely I2a2.
There are other way of knowing, but it would be easier if I could see your results.
I have 23 at DYS390, but 31 at DYS389-2
Here are my results:
Locus 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
DYS# 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389-1 392 389-2
Alleles 13 23 17 10 14 16 11 13 13 13 11 31
Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus stresses that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized." [1]
....
Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
this peak is related to Liburnians
I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I
Sarasvatī is cognate to Avestan *Haraxwaitī, which has been speculated[8] to refer to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā, the Avestan mythological world river, which would point to an already Proto-Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical *Sáras-vn̥t-iH River. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvaitī is identified with a region described to be rich in rivers, and the Old Persian cognate Hara[h]uvatiš was the name of the Helmand river system, the origin of the Greek name Arachosia.
One simple question:Actually, G spreads much deeper in mainland than Liburnians on this map...
In fact it does match better original settlement of proto-Croats..
So your deduction is:proto-Croats are likely to have been Sarmatians in origin...
in fact personal names Alan and Ante (matching tribal names of Sarmatian Alans and Antes) are common among Croats while not among Serbs... which may indicate that among Croats were people originating from Alans and Antes... it is more or less accepted that Alans were dominantly carriers of G haplogroup...
Lot of words, nothing said. I know that the game of possibilities is extremely interesting, but this is really too much. Are they Veneti, Alans, Slavs, Dalmats, Liburnians? Are they G, I2a2, R1a or something third?Croats came to Balkan from large Slavic area of white Croatia
when they arrived to Balkan they settled among Liburnians and brought abundance of of R1a haplogroup from white Croatia....
it is not clear whether I2a2 was originally present in proto-Croats, or was it acquired in white Croatia, or in Balkan (from Dalmatae and Narentani).... to clarify that knowing the haplogroups for area of their original setlement would be beneficial...all testings of Croats that I have seen seems to skip that area.... so I wonder where did Maciamo get data (as depicted in figure) about increased percentage of G haplogroup exactly in that area...
original proto-Croats might as well have been G haplogroup elite of Slavic white Croatia...
on other hand, I think that proto-Croats might have been one of subtribes of Veneti... that would make them origin from I2a2...and G haplogroup could be admixture of Alans...
Where is that study about haplogroup I and its spreading in Afghanistan? I really would like to see it.there is also one thing about Pashtun Sarbans and haplogroup I spread in Afganistan...
Oh, so, that's it. Croats are actually Pashtuns. What happened with all previous theories (Alans, Sarmatians, Liburnians, Veneti)...the spread of Sarbans matches closely haplogroup I, but haplogroup I is considerably thicker on south than spread of Sarbans, as if parallel with them, just south of them was another tribe with same haplogroup I
In fact, the area just bellow Sarbans is area of Helmand river system or Sarasvati
so, I allow for possibility that haplogroup I (possibly I2*) just south of Sarbans in area of Sarasvati/Haraxvaitī is in fact related to proto-Croat related tribe (Croats in Serbo-Croatian is Hrvati)... this could indicate that proto-Serb and proto-Croat tribes share I2a2 origin (and perhaps language) but have separate self-identity long time back in history...Croats in that area might be related to "Arattas" of the Mahabharata...
Now I get it, wherever you go, Serbs and Croats appearing. Not only that they traveled by the sea( Sea peoples) but they reached also the highest mountains in Hindukush and they somehow handle to ride horses in Black Sea steppe. Really splendid nations. I am proud to be one of those.of course this does not necessarily mean that Balkan Serbs and Croats came from Afganistan, direction of migration could have gone in opposite direction (as I have suggested in "sea peoples" thread) or it might have been from third location (e.g. Asia minor and Eneti tribe to both locations)
There is no scientific study that I am aware of that show that there is elevated G at all in the area...that is why I asked Maciamo in post above to tell based on what is the drawing made... by reading his posts I assume he is serious and does not make up data...One simple question:
What scientific study proves your statement that "G spreads much deeper in mainland"?
Is there any proof of higher percent of G among so called Proto-Croats or even in region where they have been in past times?
So your deduction is:
1. Alan and Ante are common personal names among Croats
2. Alans and Antes are Sarmatian people
3. Alans were predominantly G carriers
Conclusion: Croats are Sarmatians and carriers of G haplogroup.
it's not completely stupid idea as we have two related people with somewhat different set of first names... it's an idea that may or may not be related to reality...I would say it was pretty wild guess, but it makes some sense... besides according to my theory Antes (or Anti)/Eneti/Veneti are same tribal name, and name Anthony may as well be derived from the same source, as Celtic Veneti lived in Brittany...First of your statement, especially that part about name Ante is one of the most stupidous thing I have read on this forum. For the people which are not from Croatia, I would said that name Ante is just short from the name Anton or Anthony and have nothing in common with the people called Antes.
I did never say they are Alans... I said there might have been Alans among them...Lot of words, nothing said. I know that the game of possibilities is extremely interesting, but this is really too much. Are they Veneti, Alans, Slavs, Dalmats, Liburnians? Are they G, I2a2, R1a or something third?
Where is that study about haplogroup I and its spreading in Afghanistan? I really would like to see it.
Oh, so, that's it. Croats are actually Pashtuns. What happened with all previous theories (Alans, Sarmatians, Liburnians, Veneti)...
Now I get it, wherever you go, Serbs and Croats appearing. Not only that they traveled by the sea( Sea peoples) but they reached also the highest mountains in Hindukush and they somehow handle to ride horses in Black Sea steppe. Really splendid nations. I am proud to be one of those.
so, what you propose me to stop writing cause you do not like what you read... cause you hate idea that you might be distantly related to some Pashtun? do not forget that all people came from Africa and have common origin...just people are shaped by circumstances and some tribes had more luck in course of history, some less...Btw. with all respect for your entusiasm, I think that almost everything you wrote on this forum is just endless and exhausting trolling. We can not produce unexisting facts just to be fitted in our story. I already once before said on the forum that we all here talking about probabilities and hypothesis, but there should be some level of common sense when we are talking about things. I really don't see common sense in your writing.
It is really not correct from you to try to input me some racism against Pashtuns, only because I stated that you write nonsenses. I have never said nowhere that I have any bad thaught on any nation or race. On the contrary, I highly respect Pashtuns because they are one of the rare nations which dare to stand against agressive Western imperialism.I am focused on proto-Serbs and proto-Croats, through last tens of thousand years, they were wandering around as all other people.... so it's no wonder that we may find people related to them in Afganistan and Iberia... or you are ashame of possibility that some Pasthuns might be related to you? Do you think Pasthuns are lower worth people than you?
so, what you propose me to stop writing cause you do not like what you read... cause you hate idea that you might be distantly related to some Pashtun? do not forget that all people came from Africa and have common origin...just people are shaped by circumstances and some tribes had more luck in course of history, some less...
If you really read what I wrote, you could very easily see that I never applouded nor to Maciamo, nor to anyone else...Putting everything what comes on your mind directly on forum is not discussing or posting "original theories". With such kind of writing, you are disqualifing your own ideas by yourself. Try to think twice before you publish something...That example of Ante and Antes is just obvious example. I would be "original" and try to connect your Ante and Antes, with english word ants. So maybe Serbs means those who live like ants or a numerous as ants...Is it enough "original theory" for you?I for instance almost fail to see anything worth reading in your writings.. nothing new, no ideas, nothing...it's very easy to participate in forum without making theories, or by just applauding to Maciamo, or by just baldly spitting on theories of people who dare to propose different or original theories.....
It is really not correct from you to try to input me some racism against Pashtuns, only because I stated that you write nonsenses. I have never said nowhere that I have any bad thaught on any nation or race. On the contrary, I highly respect Pashtuns because they are one of the rare nations which dare to stand against agressive Western imperialism.
If you really read what I wrote, you could very easily see that I never applouded nor to Maciamo, nor to anyone else...
I think while I write... writing on forum is for me like a place where to think about those theories...I get ideas while writing and check sources while writing... I do not think about them when I am not writing on forum....that is my way of doing this... I am not writing a PhD on this topic, I am just writing on a forum... so my writing does not really need to be perfectly logical all the time... sometimes underlying logic is clear only to me... sometimes it is flawed...but often I manage to find interesting links....Putting everything what comes on your mind directly on forum is not discussing or posting "original theories". With such kind of writing, you are disqualifing your own ideas by yourself. Try to think twice before you publish something...
That example of Ante and Antes is just obvious example. I would be "original" and try to connect your Ante and Antes, with english word ants. So maybe Serbs means those who live like ants or a numerous as ants...Is it enough "original theory" for you?
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti...at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]
area above Black sea is hotspot of variance (and frequency) of I2a2...indicating very long settlement of people harbouring that haplogroup in that area... thus Cimmerians might have been original source of it...The Cimmerians are believed to have been Indo-European. Their language is regarded as related to Iranian[6] or Thracian. They appeared to have had an Iranian ruling class.[7]
Although the 2006 Encyclopædia Britannica reflects Herodotus, stating, "They [the Cimmerians] probably did live in the area north of the Black Sea, but attempts to define their original homeland more precisely by archaeological means, or even to fix the date of their expulsion from their country by the Scythians, have not so far been completely successful."[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CimmeriansAfter their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri. This refers to the Cimmerians who settled in the area after the initial conquests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_provinceHistorical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).
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