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Thread: Serb and Croat genes

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    if you take post 214 and 215 in consideration, then i will conclude that E is basically from thrace to epirus. Considering that the greeks in the ancient times did not consider epirotes as greeks. where Dorians ever Greek?

    I still agree with Terry Robb that northern greece, macedonian and albanian areas was E and north of these where J2.
    I still maintain that the Illyrians brought I2 into the balkans from central europe .

    There is no difference between any haplogroup in consideration to being inferior
    where did you read that? that greeks did consider Epirotes as non Greeks?

    in Fact it is written the opposite, concerning especially Dodona as primary land of Greeks, area which fits well the place Homer places γραικοι, area which is part and beside the R1a high concentration in Greece. as also if we consider E-V13 as Thracian, then why did not exist in tombs? and what kind of connection has E-V13 from thrace to south Italy? except probably Roman Army If we consider E-V13 as Thracian then then we consider E-V13 as a Northern HG or a Caucasian one, and not Levantine, I wonder why Brygian areas and Phrygia if has the same % of E-V13 as other parts,

    it is written Ηπειρος μεν αρχεγονος Ελλας εστι

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    where did you read that? that greeks did consider Epirotes as non Greeks?

    in Fact it is written the opposite, concerning especially Dodona as primary land of Greeks, area which fits well the place Homer places γραικοι, area which is part and beside the R1a high concentration in Greece. as also if we consider E-V13 as Thracian, then why did not exist in tombs? and what kind of connection has E-V13 from thrace to south Italy? except probably Roman Army If we consider E-V13 as Thracian then then we consider E-V13 as a Northern HG or a Caucasian one, and not Levantine, I wonder why Brygian areas and Phrygia if has the same % of E-V13 as other parts,

    it is written Ηπειρος μεν αρχεγονος Ελλας εστι
    one of many books on the matter

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0greek&f=false

    the Molossians are also initially not considered greek

    another book
    Epirus, 4000 years of greek history M. V. Sakellariou - 1997 - 480 pages

    there are many books

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0greek&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16266413?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed _ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4
    thanks - I think I red this paper yet - It seams prove that the differences (not too big) between Croatians and Serbians in Bosnia was not erased even with some seldom intermarriages - that Bosnia Serbians are close enough to Serbia Serbians, not too surprising - that Serbians as a whole as said by someones here yet seam to carry more 'neolithic' or 'near-near-eastern' genes - what is surprising there ???: the geographical position of present day Serbians is on "highways" where History puts a lot of 'go-and-return' invasions, and despite partial endogamy surely they took allogene peoples with them or settled among this 'aborigenes' , more than did Croatians -
    for R1b arround Montenegro CrnaGora I think about the so called 'borreby' type influence on them (more strongly built than traditional 'dinaric types', more rufosity, different cranial and facial features: I would be glad if somebody could tell me the kind (SNP) of Y-R1b that come up there?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I really do not understand serbians,croatians,montenegrins and bosnians,after what is told they are all speaking same language,to me it seems like they artificially try to say they are different nations,with these Y DNA tests.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_S...Classification
    "There are four national standard languages based on the Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian:
    Serbian (ISO 639-1 code: sr; ISO 639-2/3 code: srp; SIL code: srp)
    Croatian (ISO 639-1 code: hr; ISO 639-2/3 code: hrv; SIL code: hrv)
    Bosnian (ISO 639-1 code: bs; ISO 639-2/3 code: bos; SIL code: bos)
    Montenegrin (not completely standardized, but official in Montenegro, with published standard orthography)
    Bunjevac (used in some media in Serbia)
    "
    At least if you can not stay united in some state like Yugoslavia was,why you are not making between your states some kind of union,like nordic countries have?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries
    I mean you are almost same,from genetical point of view,you have same language,what is your problem than,I do not really understand.

    if I would take this kind of thinking,in Romania do not think Y DNA is uniform,what romanians should do,separate in different states?
    That is pure nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I really do not understand serbians,croatians,montenegrins and bosnians,after what is told they are all speaking same language,to me it seems like they artificially try to say they are different nations,with these Y DNA tests.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_S...Classification
    "There are four national standard languages based on the Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian:
    Serbian (ISO 639-1 code: sr; ISO 639-2/3 code: srp; SIL code: srp)
    Croatian (ISO 639-1 code: hr; ISO 639-2/3 code: hrv; SIL code: hrv)
    Bosnian (ISO 639-1 code: bs; ISO 639-2/3 code: bos; SIL code: bos)
    Montenegrin (not completely standardized, but official in Montenegro, with published standard orthography)
    Bunjevac (used in some media in Serbia)
    "
    At least if you can not stay united in some state like Yugoslavia was,why you are not making between your states some kind of union,like nordic countries have?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries
    I mean you are almost same,from genetical point of view,you have same language,what is your problem than,I do not really understand.

    if I would take this kind of thinking,in Romania do not think Y DNA is uniform,what romanians should do,separate in different states?
    That is pure nonsense.
    language means nothing in regards to culture, you speak and write in English but you seem not to be English

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    language means nothing in regards to culture, you speak and write in English but you seem not to be English
    Actually language exactly means culture. Knowing a foreign language means that you know or have a general idea of the nations culture so at some degree we all here are British (or American). Especially when we're talking about entire nations and taking into consideration the time period.

    Maybe language does not mean same genetic makeup but it certainly means same culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    Actually language exactly means culture. Knowing a foreign language means that you know or have a general idea of the nations culture so at some degree we all here are British (or American). Especially when we're talking about entire nations and taking into consideration the time period.

    Maybe language does not mean same genetic makeup but it certainly means same culture.
    we difer..............welsh people speak english but are considered welsh in culture

    catalans speak catalan are catalan in culture but spanish in nationality. Basques are similar.

    Breton culture ..french nationality

    Maybe there is a fine line ................but IMO nationality is not culture since culture is older than nationality.

    language comprises a small portion of cultural makeup.

    knowing another language would not mean knowing that languages culture. People in the world learn english and never ever visited english speaking nations......bulk of Indian customer service people who service centres world-wide know english language and have never left India

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    Read again Sakelariou

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UV1oAAAAMAAJ&q=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellario u"&dq=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G yRhT4zmPKbX0QWMx7CsBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg

    It writes the opposite

    Now lets see your source

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q=ancient epirotes and greek&f=false

    What? a handbook for travellers? by whom?
    Does his mother know him?

    Greeks
    a tribe described by Homer which expands from Pindus mountains to Aetolia-Akarnania a non mycenean
    homer names them Γραικοι
    Greeks an exonym that is given by Italians,
    inner name Ελληνες,
    Makedonians are not Greeks, neither peloponese, neither cretans
    They are Hellenes

    now when ancient authors like strabo say archegonus Ellas for Epirus knows something
    what that means = PRIMARY GREECE IS EPIRUS.
    and he is correct, word Hellenes from as it is said Hellanas river (a river that starts from mount Pindus and goes to thessaly to Phthia) the land of Achilleus, the same land that driopes passed to go to Dodona and build the oracle,
    Makedonians did not visit Delphi But Dodona,
    also Olympias the queen of Molossians Daughter of Achilleus,
    Alexander son of Hercules by his father, son of achlleus by his mother,
    Achilleus semi-god of Epirotans- Greeks

    do not confuse the tribe Greeks and their homeland Greece, with the later Ducat of Greece, and today preferacture of Sterea Greece,

    many author drop to that,
    it is like Germany and Deutsch and Dutch is the same, or Franks are Germanic, so Gemany is Deutsch, so Franks are Deutsch

    Greek and Greece is an exonym and does not describe well all inner names,
    Greece as primary is the land of Γραικοι of Homer, and not Hellas,
    Peloponese, Makedonia, Crete etc is not Greece but Hellas
    primary Greece as Land is Epirus, Thessaly (Aeolian tlands) to the sea of Corinth. living beside with the Locri (Dorian tribe) tribe of Αιας ο Λοκρος, different from Αιας ο Τελαμονιος
    later with Romans favor tactic became Attica as Greece and later the Ducat of Greece -Athens, and much later all area from Aetolia to Evoea (Ευβοια) as Sterea Greece preferacture leaving outside Epirus and Thessaly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Read again Sakelariou

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UV1oAAAAMAAJ&q=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellario u"&dq=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G yRhT4zmPKbX0QWMx7CsBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg

    It writes the opposite

    Now lets see your source

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q=ancient epirotes and greek&f=false

    What? a handbook for travellers? by whom?
    Does his mother know him?

    Greeks
    a tribe described by Homer which expands from Pindus mountains to Aetolia-Akarnania a non mycenean
    homer names them Γραικοι
    Greeks an exonym that is given by Italians,
    inner name Ελληνες,
    Makedonians are not Greeks, neither peloponese, neither cretans
    They are Hellenes

    now when ancient authors like strabo say archegonus Ellas for Epirus knows something
    what that means = PRIMARY GREECE IS EPIRUS.
    and he is correct, word Hellenes from as it is said Hellanas river (a river that starts from mount Pindus and goes to thessaly to Phthia) the land of Achilleus, the same land that driopes passed to go to Dodona and build the oracle,
    Makedonians did not visit Delphi But Dodona,
    also Olympias the queen of Molossians Daughter of Achilleus,
    Alexander son of Hercules by his father, son of achlleus by his mother,
    Achilleus semi-god of Epirotans- Greeks

    do not confuse the tribe Greeks and their homeland Greece, with the later Ducat of Greece, and today preferacture of Sterea Greece,

    many author drop to that,
    it is like Germany and Deutsch and Dutch is the same, or Franks are Germanic, so Gemany is Deutsch, so Franks are Deutsch

    Greek and Greece is an exonym and does not describe well all inner names,
    Greece as primary is the land of Γραικοι of Homer, and not Hellas,
    Peloponese, Makedonia, Crete etc is not Greece but Hellas
    primary Greece as Land is Epirus, Thessaly (Aeolian tlands) to the sea of Corinth. living beside with the Locri (Dorian tribe) tribe of Αιας ο Λοκρος, different from Αιας ο Τελαμονιος
    later with Romans favor tactic became Attica as Greece and later the Ducat of Greece -Athens, and much later all area from Aetolia to Evoea (Ευβοια) as Sterea Greece preferacture leaving outside Epirus and Thessaly
    let me understand you correctly, you are saying that greeks formed in the pindus mountains of Thessally , so it makes the myceneans non- greek. so the greeks where not around in Homer's bronze age
    OR are you saying they where always greeks and the creation of people in the pindus where Hellenes

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    let me understand you correctly, you are saying that greeks formed in the pindus mountains of Thessally , so it makes the myceneans non- greek. so the greeks where not around in Homer's bronze age
    OR are you saying they where always greeks and the creation of people in the pindus where Hellenes
    Correct.

    Homer names as Γραικοι (greeks) the area of south Epirus until corinthian bay beside Locri
    Epeirus is alternate name from Chaonia Central parts of (chaos = apeiron)

    Homer does not use the word greeks for myceneans but for South epeirotans and Pindus people besides Locri
    Γραικος means like mountain,
    the primary land is near Arta in EPeirus, there you see names and toponyms like γρεκικο etc

    read homer Iliad B 498
    γραικος (greek) is After Epirotan Dodona oracle priests tribal rulers γραιοι who devastate to Tana-graia or just Graia (modern tanagra) and from there to Italy giving the name Greeks to the ones who spoke the Hellenic Language (the exonym)
    in fact Greek is the older name of Epirotans and Dodona, remember Makedonians called them πελιοι (παλιοι. old ones)
    So after the city Graia the area is Greece.

    to make it more easy
    Myceneans are not Greeks as Γραικοι (inner name) but they are Greeks as exonym.


    in fact majority of Graikoi (Greek tribal) moved to Italy, and create Cymae Cuma next to Neapolis
    and brought Greek alphabet which later named Latin, while in Greece adopted the Ionian one which many say as phoenician, but Pelasgian to me,

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hi there,

    I think E-V13 people where paleo-balkanians who did not yet call themselves Greeks (Hellenes), Illyrians, Dardanians, Paeonians. Greeks and Albanians have the highest frequencies of this haplogroup, because they probably are the most related to these paleo-balkanic populations. Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, Bosniacs also share considerable Paleo-balkanic ancestry that's why they also have this haplogroup, albeit some perhaps in somewhat lower frequencies. Same can be said for haplogroup J2 which is mainly present among Greeks and Albanians but also in lower frequencies in South Slavs.

    Which brings us to this Greek/non-Greek issue. Since most people in the Balkans (especially from the middle to the south)ever since pre-historic times shared the same bulk of ancestry, the term Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture. The geography of Greece, the sea, the islands, the trade routes, the warmer climate and the proximity to other civilizations helped the South-Balkanic peoples forge a unique culture and an identity which distinguished them from the more backward northerners at the time. Southern Greece became the core of this "hellenic" civilization and Epirus and Macedonia where considered by most to be the border line of the Greek world. While the area further north was barbarian territory.

    Genetically though, there was little difference between the Greek world and the non-Greek world in adjecent areas. I.e. the genetic differences between Macedonia and non-Greek Paeonia would have probably been not much different compared to Macedonia and Thessaly or Epirus.

    Based on this logic, it is very easy to assume why 'some' Southern Greeks may have considered border-line Greeks to be barbarians at some point in time while unanimously Greek at another time. One way or the other, racially they essentially belonged to the same stock. Even the ones who never come to belong to the Greek world because they were too far from the sea.

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    Heres a Haplogroup map with Political borders


    Last edited by Menus; 30-03-12 at 08:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex D. View Post

    as you can see bosnian Serbs have higher amount of haplogroup I than Serbs in Serbia what are their other genes like or percentages?
    In what parallel universe?

    Here are the facts:

    Croats have 52% of I haplogroups and Serbs 40%, Croats have 5% of E1b1b, Serbs have 20%, Croats have R1b 30% and Serbs 15%, you see the difference? well everyone who is NOT F...ING BLIND can see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex D. View Post
    this is data i got of igenea i just copy and pasted it. anyway near easterners i dont know who would be classified as near easterners and whether illyrians are or arent but look at this:
    Near eastern people in croatia (illyrians, hellenics and phoenicans)- 50%
    Near eastenr people in Serbia (illyrians, hellenics and phoenicans)- 36%
    Can I ask you something? Do you have any mental disorders? Well if you do not have any mental disorders than you would f...ing know that there isn't such thing as "near eastern people in croatia 50%", where the f...ck did you find this number 50%? Are you saying that haplogroup I2a2 is near-eastern? I2a2 is one of the oldest european haplogroups, and you should exam your head before you came to this forum, obviously this forum is not for you, you should check some forums for "village & people" or something similar.

    Croats along with Slovenians have the less amount of any "near eastern" (what ever this is) haplogroup, or even neolithic haplogroup from ex-yugoslav nations, and THAT IS A FACT, and do you want another fact? Croatians are by genetic THE OLDEST EUROPEANS, yeah, you saw it right, you know why? Because Croats have 52% of Paleolithic genes (I), now here is one more fact for you: piss off from this forum, because obviously you don't have connection with genetic research and obviously you are nothin more but serbian nationalist with education on levels of AMEBA.

    Ciao "fratello".

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    serbs seem to have slavicized and incorporated into their society a large number of albanian males, at some point in time before the arrival of the ottomans in the 1400-s. Since albanians and serbs were both christian orthodox at the time, they might have actually had good relations for some period of time. That is the only explanation I can think of for their mixed dna.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A new study about Croatian DNA













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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bosna501 View Post
    Bosnians are Illyrians they have 50% of I2a (Illyrian) Haplogroup
    in southbosnia up to 70%.
    The Name Bosnia is real ancient Illyrian Word BOSONA.
    I feel sorry for this guys. A slav wants to be Illyrian. Its nothing wrong with being slav. Be proud of who you are, and don't try to be who you are not. Its looks stupid, it sound stupid. If you are Illyrian that in no way makes you better anyway you see it. Its not shame from being a slav or, is it?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have friends bosnian and i know many have grandfather or grandmother albanian (from montenegro or kosovo), for this have dna illyrian , and i think this 50% is only by bosniaks .
    The story of illyrian is abuse by all, and is insupportable.
    For me albanian,bosnian,montenegrin and croatian are descended from illyrian and slave.
    In dna of turk have 15,8% r1b1 and j2 24,8% because in ottoman empire serbs move albanian in turkey for build church ortodox.
    Is a my idea , what think other? is right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko94 View Post
    I have friends bosnian and i know many have grandfather or grandmother albanian (from montenegro or kosovo), for this have dna illyrian , and i think this 50% is only by bosniaks .
    The story of illyrian is abuse by all, and is insupportable.
    For me albanian,bosnian,montenegrin and croatian are descended from illyrian and slave.
    In dna of turk have 15,8% r1b1 and j2 24,8% because in ottoman empire serbs move albanian in turkey for build church ortodox.
    Is a my idea , what think other? is right?
    Marko94! You need to work a little more with English grammar. I know, english is not our language but we have to try a little more to improve ourselves, so others can understand us. I have problems too with english, even though I have lived among english speakers for a number of years. Now, Dna tests show that three major haplogroups among Albanians are, E,J,R1b. There is not a direct written evidence of Illyrians being the forefathers of today Albanians. The strongest evidence that makes Albanianas decendents from Illyrians is our Language. Albanian language is half latin, and the words come from latin spoken 100 yrs before Christ. That means we have been conquered by latins in the first 100 yrs before christ. The only people conquered at that time by Romans were Illyrians. So that alone puts us firmly in Illyrian shoes. If we see the Dna of today slavs They are largely R1a, I2a, which seems to be slavic haplogroups. The remainig haplogroups in Slavs E,J, R1b, and I1 are the illyrian elements in slavs. Having said that, it shows that croatians are about 20% Illyrians, bosnians are about 25%, serbs about 35% and Montenegrins are in fact Albanians that speak Serbian.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Marko94! You need to work a little more with English grammar. I know, english is not our language but we have to try a little more to improve ourselves, so others can understand us. I have problems too with english, even though I have lived among english speakers for a number of years. Now, Dna tests show that three major haplogroups among Albanians are, E,J,R1b. There is not a direct written evidence of Illyrians being the forefathers of today Albanians. The strongest evidence that makes Albanianas decendents from Illyrians is our Language. Albanian language is half latin, and the words come from latin spoken 100 yrs before Christ. That means we have been conquered by latins in the first 100 yrs before christ. The only people conquered at that time by Romans were Illyrians. So that alone puts us firmly in Illyrian shoes. If we see the Dna of today slavs They are largely R1a, I2a, which seems to be slavic haplogroups. The remainig haplogroups in Slavs E,J, R1b, and I1 are the illyrian elements in slavs. Having said that, it shows that croatians are about 20% Illyrians, bosnians are about 25%, serbs about 35% and Montenegrins are in fact Albanians that speak Serbian.
    Yes i know srry, and my mother language is italian, i'm albanian but i was born in italy :).
    Is possible, you rember venetian albania?
    In google write "venetian albania" and say boundaries.

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