Haplogroup I and Germanic people

Interesting. Swedes mostly went East with Danes (who went East and West) where Varangians (and Rus by the Finns) was used to describe them. But I would not doubt that some individuals or small groups went West with Danes or Norwegians. Their language and culture would have made such contacts easy I would think.

There are just so many Swedish matches for my Grandfather's I1 and others like it that I am forced to the conclusion that Swedes played a bigger part in the Viking raids than is usually acknowledged. I don't know enough about archaeology, distinctly Swedish jewellry etc to say more, but I seem to recall that the earlier Anglo Saxon burial discovered at Sutton Hoo in Suffolk had some links to Sweden too. Logically, looking at a map of Scandinavia, Sweden is only 'next door' to Norway and Denmark after all. I really do think it has been overlooked as a source of genetic input to the British gene-pool. The influence might be relatively small, but I bet it is there.
 
You are probably right. I tend to defer to the math, in this case, DNA.
"Danes" may just have been a general term for them to the Anglo-Saxons.
 
Haplogroup I in Germany, Sweden and Denmark.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html

North Germany:
I1: 18%
I2a: 1%
I2b: 5%
R1a: 23%
R1b: 38%
G2a: 3.5%
J2: 4%
J1: 0.5%
E1b1b: 5.5%
T: 1%
Q: 2%
N1c1: 1.5%

East Germany:
I1: 19.5%
I2a: 1%
I2b: 3%
R1a: 25%
R1b: 36%
G2a: 4%
J2: 2%
J1: 0%
E1b1b: 7.5%
T: 1%
Q: 1%
N1c1: 1%

West Germany:
I1: 13%
I2a: 2.5%
I2b: 7%
R1a: 9%
R1b: 47%
G2a: 5%
J2: 5%
J1: 0%
E1b1b: 8%
T: 1.5%
Q: 0.5%
N1c1: 1.5%

South Germany:
I1: 9.5%
I2a: 5%
I2b: 3%
R1a: 9.5%
R1b: 48.5%
G2a: 7.5%
J2: 5.5%
J1: 1%
E1b1b: 7.5%
T: 1.5%
Q: 0.5%
N1c1: 0.5%

Denmark:
I1: 30.5%
I2a: 0.5%
I2b: 5%
R1a: 12.5%
R1b: 44.5%
G2a: 1%
J2: 3%
J1: 0%
E1b1b: 2.5%
T: 0%
Q: 0%
N1c1: 1.5%

Sweden:
I1: 42%
I2a: 0%
I2b: 2%
R1a: 23.5%
R1b: 21%
G2a: 0.5%
J2: 1%
J1: 0%
E1b1b: 1%
T: 0%
Q: 0.5%
N1c1: 7%
 
The Scandinavian influence in Scotland, as you suggest, is largely Norwegian. They would certainly carry I1.

I agree regarding Anglo-Saxon settlement; in Scotland this is largely limited to the Anglian settlements of Lothian, in lowland Scotland.

Scandinavian I1 genes in northern Scotland might also, in the cases of a few individuals in Norman-descended Clans [usually the chieftain lines], actually hail from the Normans. Certainly, the rather mixed Normans- which included Flemings, Franks, Bretons etc-might have brought I1 to northern Scotland in some cases.

I have also heard that the Sinclaire family of France is I1. They were supposedly the last vestiges of the Knight's Templar who fled to Scotland and were given asylum by the Macdonald Clan in the Hebrides . Of course the Macdonalds also joined forces at one time with thier one time enemies, the Vikings against the Stuarts. One small point of interest- The crest of the Macdonald clan shows a very Nordic symbol..the raven. My Sir Name is Mcdonell.
 
Northern Scotland was settled by an appreciable amount of Scandinavians. The Earldom of Orkney survived for some time past the Viking era. You should be able to find a decent amount of information on related haplogroups on this forum. I think that you are on track. I would go with Scandinavians as being the most likely because I have never seen any evidence of Anglo-Saxon settlements in that part of Scotland.

Semper Fi

Semper Fi...
 
Interesting to read about haplogroup I. This is the root of all the ancestors of the Germanic tribes.

not all I is Germanic.

But actually, there are details that made me wonder whether that was always the case.....

this is Kerman province located in Persia, Iran... it matches by shape the south most spread of haplogroup I in Asia...

250px-Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png

I.png


Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province
The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri. This refers to the Cimmerians who settled in the area after the initial conquests.
Some modern authors assert that the Cimmerians included mercenaries, whom the Assyrians knew as Khumri, who had been resettled there by Sargon. Later Greek accounts describe the Cimmerians as having previously lived on the steppes, between the Tyras (Dniester) and Tanais (Don) rivers. Greek and Mesopotamian sources note several Cimmerian kings including Tugdamme (Lygdamis in Greek; mid-7th century BC), and Sandakhshatra (late-7th century).

The Cimmerian occupation of Lydia was brief, however, possibly due to an outbreak of plague. Between 637 and 626 BC, they were beaten back by Alyattes II of Lydia. This defeat marked the effective end of Cimmerian power. The term Gimirri was used about a century later in the Behistun inscription (ca. 515 BC) as a Babylonian equivalent of Persian Saka (Scythians). Otherwise Cimmerians disappeared from western Asian historical accounts, and their fate was unknown. It has been speculated that they settled in Cappadocia, known in Armenian as Գամիրք, Gamir-kʿ (the same name as the original Cimmerian homeland in Mannae).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

The Hebrew name Gomer is widely considered to refer to the Cimmerians (Akkadian Gimirru, "complete"), who dwelt on the Eurasian Steppes[4] and attacked Assyria in the late 7th century BC. The Assyrians called them Gimmerai ; the Cimmerian king Teushpa was defeated by Assarhadon of Assyria sometime between 681 and 668 BC.[5]
The Cimbri were a tribe settled in Denmark ca. 200 BC, who were variously identified in ancient times as Cimmerian, Germanic or Celtic. In later times, some scholars connected them with the Welsh people, and descendants of Gomer.
...
According to tractate Yoma, in the Talmud, Gomer is identified as the ancestor of the Gomermians, modern Germans.


if we look at the world known to Hebrews we can see the location of Gomer ..

402px-Noahsworld_map.png


and position of Gomer does fit well with I2a2 spread as it is found north of Black sea and as an island in east part of Asia minor...

Haplogroup_I2a.gif
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups
Listed here are notable ethnic groups by Y-DNA haplogroups based on relevant studies. The data is presented in two columns for each haplogroup with the first being the sample size (n) and the second the percentage in the haplogroup designated by the column header. The samples are taken from individuals identified with the ethnic and linguistic designations in the first two columns.

Haplogroup I
Denmark: 38.7 %
Sweden: 37,5% & 40% (2 tests)
Germany: 37,5%

Never presented them as proof only linked as all do here with source where it came from, if fake or not its not my problem all should check sources before believing in anything here, even your word matching. All posts here on this forum are interesting so continue to post as you all have done so far.
 
You are probably right. I tend to defer to the math, in this case, DNA.
"Danes" may just have been a general term for them to the Anglo-Saxons.

I've just had my Maternal Grandfather's I1 haplotype [which is in Nordtvedt's L22 I1-Norse category], reanalysed by Arne Roehl and Peter Forster at Roots For Real and despite many close Swedish matches the Norwegian hits predominate. Roehl seems very confident that the haplotype is 'relatively recent' and sees Norway as the most likely origin.
 
Interesting, thanks. I am going to have to get mine done.
 
Haplogroup I is NOT germanic. First of all, haplogroup I is paleolithic pre-Indoeuropean and germanics are Indoeuropeans. Second: The highest percentage of haplogroup I is found in non-germanic areas, such as Bosnia and Sardinia.
 
Haplogroup I is NOT germanic. First of all, haplogroup I is paleolithic pre-Indoeuropean and germanics are Indoeuropeans. Second: The highest percentage of haplogroup I is found in non-germanic areas, such as Bosnia and Sardinia.

Wilhelm
Generally I is the highest in Bosnia and Herzegovina, also I is high in Serbia.

Distribution I

Bosnia Herzegovina, 65%, Pericic et al (2005)
Serbia, 48%, Mirabal et al (2010)

In the Balkans, I2a2 is the dominant.

The north of Europe is dominated by I1, countries:

Sweden, Norway, Denmark,

and areas:

Western Finland and Northern Germany.

The descendants of I1 today are primarily found among the the bordering Celtic and Uralic populations in Scandinavia and Northern Germanic populations of northern Europe.

Iceland and Britany also have significant male population I1.

Interestingly, in Serbia I1 is 7,8%.

It can be found that I1 indicates the Viking marker, or to be called the Old Scandinavian and Old German even, but certainly it is questionable if this is correct.
 
As far I understand it is not right way to try to assign one whole haplogroup with the nation, even if the nation is quite ancient as Germans, Celts or Slavs. Each of these groups were genetically diverse with one or two dominating haplogroups. Germans I1,I2b, R1b and R1a, Slavs R1a and I2a2, Celts R1b etc.
Isn't it good answer to this question dna results from Lichenstein cave from 1000BC. Even then it was genetically diverse society with I2b, R1a and R1b people living together on one place.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to extract indoeuropean an pre-indoeuropean part from each of those nation. Story about german substrate in language is well known (about 30% percent words in germanic languages are not indoeuropean). It is heritage of paleoeuropeans in Germans. Nobody does such exploration for Slavic languages, and Slavs also have significant amount of paleoeuropeans. It would be interesting to find out which slavic words are not indoeuropean and have same root with same words in germanic substrate.
I hope I have found one. It is serbian, and slavic word for plum- šljiva. Well known drink slivovitza (or brandy from sliva)
That is what I find on wikipedia about šljiva etymology:
The word "sloe" comes from Old English slāh - the same word is noted in Middle Low German (historically spoken in Lower Saxony), Middle Dutch "sleuuwe" or contracted form "slē" (from which come Modern Low German words: "slē", "slī", and Modern Dutch "slee"), Old High German "slēha", "slēwa" (from which come Modern German "Schlehe". All these come from Common Germanic root *slaiχwōn. Cf. West Slavic / Polish "śliwa" plum of any species, including sloe "śliwa tarnina" – root present in other Slavic languages, e.g. Serbian/Croatian šljiva / шљива and likely to be an early borrowing into Proto-Indo-European from the languages of pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
 
Haplogroup I is NOT germanic. First of all, haplogroup I is paleolithic pre-Indoeuropean and germanics are Indoeuropeans. Second: The highest percentage of haplogroup I is found in non-germanic areas, such as Bosnia and Sardinia.

I disagree here. Germanics are a mixture of Indo-European and 'native' European stock. They are effectively a cocktail of I1, I2b1, R1b and R1a1. Any Population Geneticist would tell you this. That is how the 'Germanic' people were formed. They are certainly not 'pure' Indo-Europeans.

The highest percentage of I haplogroup- you refer to I2a2a and M26 I2a1 respectively- is found in non-Germanic areas, yes. However, the north-western form of I2a2- I2a2b was founded in northern Germany. Additionally, when searching for genetic echoes of Germanics, all Population Geneticists worth their salt look for I1.
 
Last edited:
I disagree here. Germanics are a mixture of Indo-European and 'native' European stock. They are effectively a cocktail of I1, I2b1, R1b and R1a1. Any Population Geneticist would tell you this. That is how the 'Germanic' people were formed. They are certainly not 'pure' Indo-Europeans.

The highest percentage of I haplogroup- you refer to I2a2a and M26 I2a1 respectively- is found in non-Germanic areas, yes. However, the north-western form of I2a2- I2a2b was founded in northern Germany. Additionally, when searching for genetic echoes of Germanics, all Population Geneticists worth their salt look for I1.

It is interesting that the Germanics were believed by many to have been largely such a mixture even before DNA confirmed it (Although DNA also gave us much more detail) Even works from the 60s had the first IE waves (I guess now R1b1b2?) merging with the Ertebolle people, who were still in a sub-Neolithic, much of a hunter-gatherer culture. This happened in modern-day Denmark, lower modern-day Norway and Sweden and along the coast from the Netherlands to the Poland. From what I have learned here in the forum, these people were likely predominantly I group. I assume that R1a would have mixed in later, maybe from contact with proto-Slavs. Classical sources described Germans not only as tall, but particularly as having large frames. It is possible that physical traits from I peoples may have been the main contributor of this feature for which early Germans are known. The I peoples appear to have continued much of the way of life that was practiced throughout much of Europe during the Ice Age.
 
R1a moved into center of europe about 5 000 years ago with Battle Axe Culture.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml

I agree absolutely. From there, the Indo-European carriers of R1a1 and R1b mixed with the 'native' I haplogroup carriers and we have the emergence of the Germanic peoples.

As I said before, when looking for traces of Germanic peoples, Population Geneticists have tended to use I1 and R1a1 as markers rather than R1b. This is obviously because I1 and R1a1 are effectively absent in Celtic lands. There may well be Germanic-leaning R1b clades like U106/S21 and U198/S29 but R1b in general is plentiful in Celtic countries and is associated with the spread of Celtic languages. Some see I1 as the 'core' of the Germanic peoples, but to me the 'core' is an I1/I2b1/R1b/R1a1 mixture. All these haplogroups, with a tiny dash of I2a2b, went to make the Germanic folk. The percentages vary though between different countries, ie, Norway has more R1a1 etc.
 
I agree absolutely. From there, the Indo-European carriers of R1a1 and R1b mixed with the 'native' I haplogroup carriers and we have the emergence of the Germanic peoples.
what about Klyosov who says that R1a is ancient old in area of Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia and much younger in all other areas of the world taken together....

now, if it has recently came from somewhere to Balkan, than it should be by far oldest there and not in Balkan, right?
 
what about Klyosov who says that R1a is ancient old in area of Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia and much younger in all other areas of the world taken together....

now, if it has recently came from somewhere to Balkan, than it should be by far oldest there and not in Balkan, right?

Sorry but I don't follow your point here, how yes no. I am defining the Germanic peoples as a mixture of Indo-European [R1a1, R1b] and 'native' European [I1, I2b1, and I2a2b] haplogroups.

I have read Klyosov [a little bit, most is in Russian] and I am not disputing the dating of R1a1 as R1a1 is not my area. However, I do believe that there is overwhelming evidence that R1a1 was brought to northern Europe by the Kurgan 'Battle Axe' culture.
 

This thread has been viewed 96139 times.

Back
Top