Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: How Indo-European myths shaped Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Hindu identities

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,482
    Points
    305,570
    Level
    100
    Points: 305,570, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Post How Indo-European myths shaped Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Hindu identities



    At the dawn of times were two twin brothers, Manu and Yemo, travelling with a sacred cow. The twins decided to create a new world for a new race called 'mankind'. In order to achieve this, Yemo had to be sacrificed and carved up by his brother, with the help of the Sky Gods, to produce mankind. Manu created the earth, water, air and fire, and became the first priest of the new world order.

    Once the world was created, the Sky Gods gave cattle to Trito (the Third man). The cattle was stolen by a three-headed serpent, prompting Trito to seek the monster in its mountain cave, and killing it with the help of the Storm God, thus freeing the cattle. Trito became the first warrior.

    All Indo-European speakers (Germanic, Celts, Romans, Greeks, Hittites, Iranians, Hindus) developed their own version of the foundation myth, derived from a shared ancestry.

    Manu, the progenitor of mankind, was also the very first king to rule this earth. the Hindu Manu is known in Germanic mythology as Mannus. For Germanic people, Mannus was the progenitor of the three first Germanic tribes. It is tempting to see a link with the three main paternal lineages found in Germanic people : haplogroups I1, R1a and R1b.

    Manu's twin, Yemo became Ymir in Norse mythology and Yama in Hinduism/Buddhism.

    The Roman foundation myth, the story of Romulus and Remus, is another variant of the Indo-European creation myth. Mannus would be Romulus (Romanus ?), killing his twin brother Remus (Yemo, or Iemus in Latin) to create Rome. The legend was made up centuries after the actual foundation of Rome, as the names of Mannus and Iemus adapted to the phonology of the city (hence the Ro- and Re- prefix).

    The Sky Gods can be identified as Odin and Thor in Germanic mythology, Taranis in Celtic mythology, Perun/Perkūnas for the Slavs and Balts, or Zeus/Jupiter and his pantheon for the Greco-Romans.

    Unsurprisingly, cattle became a symbol of deity among Indo-Europeans. The bull became the vehicle of Shiva in Hinduism, while Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu, is usually depicted riding a cow. In Zoroastrianism, the Indo-European religion of the Iranian people, closely related to Hinduism, the lands of both Zarathustra and the Vedic priests were those of cattle breeders.

    Although cattle did not enjoy the same sacredness among Italo-Celts, Germans or Slavs, cows were a vital part of their society for transport, meat and milk. Dairy product consumption was so important for Indo-European peoples that lactose tolerance is now almost exclusively found among their descendants. The percentage of Indo-European Y-haplogroups (R1a and R1b) in a population is a fairly good indicator of the prevalence of lactase persistence. Based on genetic tests, it is estimated that the mutation for lactose tolerance first appeared in the steppes west of the Ural mountains around 4600-2800 BCE (source The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, p.326).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-01-10 at 13:18.

  2. #2
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    Manu, the progenitor of mankind, was also the very first king to rule this earth. the Hindu Manu is known in Germanic mythology as Mannus. For Germanic people, Mannus was the progenitor of the three first Germanic tribes. It is tempting to see a link with the three main paternal lineages found in Germanic people : haplogroups I1, R1a and R1b.


    there is no haplogroup I1 in India ! Am I wrong?

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,482
    Points
    305,570
    Level
    100
    Points: 305,570, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    there is no haplogroup I1 in India ! Am I wrong?
    So what ? I was talking about the foundation myth of Germanic people, as a variant of the older Indo-European myth. There are no Germanic people in India, right.

  4. #4
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So what ? I was talking about the foundation myth of Germanic people, as a variant of the older Indo-European myth. There are no Germanic people in India, right.


    there is no haplogroup I1 in India !

    But there are R1a1 and a little of R1b.

    I seek the haplogroup that units all Indo-European peoples.

    At the same time I want to find the answer.
    Did the Germans *aryans* >>>*theory of Hitler* really invaded India many years ago?
    Was he an idiot or....?


    Where can i find a map of R1b in India!?
    Last edited by iann_allein; 08-01-10 at 00:34.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,627
    Points
    8,976
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,976, Level: 28
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 374
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    there is no haplogroup I1 in India !

    But there are R1a1 and a little of R1b.

    I seek the haplogroup that units all Indo-European peoples.

    At the same time I want to find the answer.
    Did the Germans *aryans* >>>*theory of Hitler* really invaded India many years ago?
    Was he an idiot or....?


    Where can i find a map of R1b in India!?
    lol, the R1b in India is basically non-existent...you won't find any map

  6. #6
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    lol, the R1b in India is basically non-existent...you won't find any map


    Maciamo wrote somewhere that there was a little of R1b in India. i dont remember where is the text.
    i think R1b is in Iindia . But R1b has 10- 20 subclades...

    Maciamo! Am i wr0ng? R1b exists in Iindia....

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,482
    Points
    305,570
    Level
    100
    Points: 305,570, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by iann_allein View Post
    Maciamo wrote somewhere that there was a little of R1b in India. i dont remember where is the text.
    i think R1b is in Iindia . But R1b has 10- 20 subclades...

    Maciamo! Am i wr0ng? R1b exists in Iindia....
    There is R1b in India. Percentages have not been determined yet, but it is found in every part of the country where R1a is common (so about everywhere except the southern tip or east of Bengal). It is mostly of the European variety (R-M269 or deeper subclades), proving their Pontic-Caspian steppe origin.

    R1b is of course also found in Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

  8. #8
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is R1b in India. Percentages have not been determined yet, but it is found in every part of the country where R1a is common (so about everywhere except the southern tip or east of Bengal). It is mostly of the European variety (R-M269 or deeper subclades), proving their Pontic-Caspian steppe origin.

    R1b is of course also found in Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

    thanks

    where is the source ?
    WH0 can give me the source.
    i want to see.....
    it's hard to find s0mething on the Internet. * R1b in India *

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    thanks

    but I saw this map.
    i want to see the map 0f hapl0gr0up R1b in Asia ...
    Last edited by iann_allein; 09-01-10 at 01:42.

  11. #11
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is R1b in India. Percentages have not been determined yet, but it is found in every part of the country where R1a is common (so about everywhere except the southern tip or east of Bengal). It is mostly of the European variety (R-M269 or deeper subclades), proving their Pontic-Caspian steppe origin.

    R1b is of course also found in Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.
    i found on wikiedia...In South Asia, R1b is present at 8% in Iranians,[72] 7.4% in Pakistanis (including 4.5% R1b1b1-M73 and 2.8% R1b1b2-M269), while it is almost not found in India (0.55% R1b1b2-M269).[20] Haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has been found in approximately 11% of a sample of Newars in Nepal.[73]

  12. #12
    Populace Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-01-10
    Location
    sherbrooke
    Posts
    23


    Country: Canada



    I have found. Look at the bottom of the page, but there are not many ......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

  13. #13
    Baron Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-02-10
    Location
    Palais de l'Elysée
    Posts
    231
    Points
    3,585
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,585, Level: 17
    Level completed: 34%, Points required for next Level: 265
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N-Tat

    Ethnic group
    Schwaben
    Country: France



    wikipedia source :

    Haplogroup R, the ancestral clade to R1 and R2, appeared on the Central Asian Steppes around 35,000 to 30,000 years ago.
    R1, sister clade to R2, moved to the West from the Central Asian Steppes around 35,000 to 30,000 years ago. R1 pockets were established, from where R1a and R1b emerged.
    R2 made its first entry into the Indian sub-continent around 25,000 years ago. The routes taken are not clear, although the Indus and Ganges rivers are possible theories put forward. There could, of course, have been multiple immigrations of this haplogroup into the Indian sub-continent, both in the Paleolithic and the Neolithic.


    The frequencies of R2 seem to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed.

    Frequency of R2 in Social and Linguistic Subgroups of Indian Populations
    (Source: Sengupta et al. 2006)

    Lower Caste - - Dravidian 13.79% indo european 10.00%
    Middle Caste - - Dravidian 3.53% indo european 18.75%
    Upper Caste - - Dravidian 10.17% indo european 16.28%

    As R2 we find both R1a in Dravidians or Indo Europeans so about India the connection between Indo Europeans and haplogroups R1* is not so simple and R1b1b2 ht15 is not found .In my opinion there was already R1a in India when a second wave of R1a Indo European culture from asian steppe came here .
    Last edited by willy; 26-02-10 at 01:37.

  14. #14
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,482
    Points
    305,570
    Level
    100
    Points: 305,570, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Willy, why are you talking about R2 ? It's not an Indo-European haplogroup. As you read in Wikipedia, R2 originated in Central/South Asia and is only found there. R1b* might have originated in Central Asia too, but then migrated to the Middle East, then to the Pontic steppes, where it became R1b1b2. The R1b in India and Pakistan is mostly R1b1b2 and its subclades. It is undeniably of Indo-European origin.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-04-10
    Posts
    17


    Country: UK - Wales



    Is R1b1b2 the haplogroup named has Oisin by Brian Sykes?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    06-06-10
    Posts
    5


    Country: France



    How can one be sure when haplogroups came about. 30000 thousand or less or more. No one can be sure about that. These are only quesses.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class100 Experience Points7 days registered
    Rainbow Warrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-04-13
    Posts
    16
    Points
    175
    Level
    2
    Points: 175, Level: 2
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 75
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    I'm bookmarking this... interesting

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    29-06-12
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    Age
    20
    Posts
    199
    Points
    2,824
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,824, Level: 15
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 226
    Overall activity: 17.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a2d
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    57.5% Celtic, 34.5% Germanic, 4% Slavic, 4% Italic with Ashkenazi Jewish and West African minority
    Country: USA - Washington



    According to barbarian rights book, one of the slaves of the Germanics got cremated alive with her master while the widow was cremated also with their husbands, makes me wonder if the Kurgan urns contain the ashes of those rituals :/

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    29-06-12
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    Age
    20
    Posts
    199
    Points
    2,824
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,824, Level: 15
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 226
    Overall activity: 17.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a2d
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    57.5% Celtic, 34.5% Germanic, 4% Slavic, 4% Italic with Ashkenazi Jewish and West African minority
    Country: USA - Washington



    Okay, as far as Germanic Tribes though I've been separating the Gods by their tribes and separating Indo-European by Native European (unless if the god was warshiped in a non-Norse Germanic tribe also) Sorry about the copy and pasting, I propably need to find an Anglo-Saxon style keyboard :/

    Norse (Haplogroup I?): Bragi, Dellingr, Forseti, Heimdaller, Höðr, Meili, Óðr
    Norse/ England (Haplogroup I/Viking Expeditions?: Baldr, Freyr , Hermóðr, Thor
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (Not sure the exact haplogroup yet :/ but Indo_European?)

    Old Norse/West Germanic (Anglo-Saxon/Primitive Dutch and German): Odin

    Saxon:Saxnot

    I'm noticing much of the Germanic Gods seem to be Strictly Norse

    I went by the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ef-SIMEK43_2-0


    Balder was the God of Sunshine and Summer and was manslautered by his blind brother who was tricked by Loki;all Norse only gods apparently. http://www.haxton.org/Baldr.htm
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here are the Gods of PIE reconstructed and their Equivalents

    Dyeus: God of the Sky
    Greek: Zeus (I'm presuming the Romans have borrowed this god http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primary...mans/religion/)
    Roman: Jupiter
    Hindu: Dyaus Pita I hypotheses that these gods are of R1A origin considering Hindu is involved :/

    "Zeus". American Heritage Dictionary. Bartleby. Retrieved 2006-07-03
    "Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans". American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed.). Bartleby. 2000. Retrieved 2008-09-27.
    Oberlies, Thomas (1998), Die Religion des Rgveda (in German), Wien.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Perkwunos: Thunder and oak God
    Baltic R1a: Perkūnas
    Germanic: Thor
    Celtic: Sucellus
    Hypothesis: Haplogroup R1 origin

    Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 410–33
    Last edited by Twilight; 11-10-13 at 21:42.

  20. #20
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-11-13
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1
    Points
    103
    Level
    1
    Points: 103, Level: 1
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - New York



    Hi,
    I read your post. It is a most popular and favored post. But Online English Classes is a favored all this student .

    Thank

  21. #21
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-12-13
    Posts
    1
    Points
    297
    Level
    3
    Points: 297, Level: 3
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Kurd
    Country: Sweden



    I have a question regarding the words for sky. In kurdish language the word Dêw means demon, which previously meant God in pre-zoroastrianism religion but with the zoroaster reform it changed it's meaning to "false god", hence the new meaning "demon". And what's strange is that kurdish is the only IE language that has the word Daya for mother instead of a word starting with "m" (but some kurdish dialects still use "mak" or "may"). Yet the kurdish word for sky has no connection to the IE word. But shining might have a word, "tav" or "taw" which is almost like Týr. Some kurdish dialects say "tawsan" for summer.

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    790
    Points
    8,381
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,381, Level: 27
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurd
    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bêstûn View Post
    I have a question regarding the words for sky. In kurdish language the word Dêw means demon, which previously meant God in pre-zoroastrianism religion but with the zoroaster reform it changed it's meaning to "false god", hence the new meaning "demon". And what's strange is that kurdish is the only IE language that has the word Daya for mother instead of a word starting with "m" (but some kurdish dialects still use "mak" or "may"). Yet the kurdish word for sky has no connection to the IE word. But shining might have a word, "tav" or "taw" which is almost like Týr. Some kurdish dialects say "tawsan" for summer.
    Daya is not actually the original word for Mother.

    Mother was back in the times "May". Not too long ago Daya, which originated from Dayanova?(if I am not wrong), suddenly replaced May. Daya means in ancient Proto Iranian language something like "breast-feeding".

    Tav/Taw or more rightly used Tavik is another of these words which changed it's meaning. Originally it meant (and still means) "Heat" (heat of the Sun). But in some Kurdish dialects it changed into the meaning of the sun itself. Interestingly I red somewhere, that this change is observed in Scythian too.

    The word "Roj" which has two meanings in Kurdish, "day and sun", original was only the word for the day. It replaced the word "Shems" which is nowadays only used by Yezidis and even is in the form of "Shemsi" another ethnic name of them (because Yezidis have their roots in Mithra cult). Shemsi in Kurdish has also the meaning of sunumbrella.

    "tawsan" in Kurdish is not the root of the word for summer. Likely it is a derived form of Taw (Heat).

    the word Havin/Hawin fits perfectly into the Kurdish (and Iranian in general) loud-scheme.

    in Iranian the Proto Indo European letter "S" turns in Middle Iranian period to "H". Some Kurdish dialects specifically tend to shift the "m" loud into "v or w". Kurdish tends to shift the "e" loud into i while Persian tends to shift it into an "a" as we see in the word "me", which was in proto Iranian "men" and is in Persian "man" while in Kurdish "min" or in short "mi".

    So replace the "H" with an "S", the "v/w" with "m" and "i" with "e" in the word "havin" = "samen" there you go the root of "summer" in Iranian.
    Last edited by Alan; 16-12-13 at 03:43.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-07-14, 23:32
  2. British: Celtic and Germanic origins
    By Trevor in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 09-07-13, 03:41
  3. Celtic and Pre-Germanic
    By Taranis in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 25-04-13, 12:54
  4. origin of Celtic and Germanic tribes
    By Haganus in forum Genetic Genealogy & Haplogroups
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 13-01-12, 04:57
  5. Germanic/ Celtic ancestry of the English
    By Woden in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 18-03-10, 03:33

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •