Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 133

Thread: African mtDNA and Y-DNA in Iberia

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    African mtDNA and Y-DNA in Iberia



    I have started a new topic with posts originally from the thread Lie about mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Spain.

    I think that this topic is interesting enough, though potentially controversial, to deserve its own thread. The main questions developed below are :

    - How much African DNA is found in the Iberian population ?
    - What is the origin of these African haplogroups (e.g. Maghreban, sub-Saharan) ?
    - How does this compare to other parts of Europe ?
    - What parts of Iberia have the highest frequencies of African haplogroups ?
    - How can we explain their presence historically ?

    ----------------

    African MtDNA haplogroups in Iberia

    Luis posted below the regional percentages of hg L in Iberia. The overall continental average is 2.25%. With the islands, it is 2.90%. The highest frequency of L is found in Cordoba (8.30%), and the lowest in central Spain and the Basque country (0.66%).

    Acording to Helgason et al. (2001), Iberia has 1.42% of North African haplogroup U6. I couldn't find any data for the other two typical Maghreban lineages, X1 and M1, but it cannot exceed the "other" category (1.99%).


    Attention ! MtDNA does not equal autosomal DNA !

    Before starting this discussion, I would like to explain why the percentage of haplogroups does not necessarily equal the percentage of admixture from the region of origin of that particular haplogroup. For example, 2% of mtDNA L in Iberia does not mean 2% of African admixture.

    Imagine that an Black African woman was brought to Europe 2000 years ago. She has children with a European. All her children belong, like her, to hg L. However she is 100% African, but her children are only 50%. Her children all marry white Europeans. Her sons' children won't have any African mtDNA, but about 25% of African autosomal DNA. Her daughters' children will be mtDNA L, and have 25% of African DNA. After 10 generations (about 300 years), if any of her descendant still carries her mtDNA line, they might not have any African autosomal DNA left, but mtDNA will still be there. Those hg L people might be pure Europeans with an African mitochondrial haplogroup. At most they will have 1% of African DNA.

    I am not aware of any direct settlement of Black Africans in Iberia. The amount of Black African Y-DNA is negligible like everywhere in Europe. Therefore, all the haplogroup L found in Iberia must be of Maghreban origin. This means that when L reached Iberia, its carriers already had an admixture of European, Berber and Black African DNA. Although 98% of Maghreban Y-DNA is North African (E-M81), up to 90% of their mtDNA lines are European (minimum 50% in the most Africanised tribes in southern Morocco). In other words, when women carrying hg L entered Iberia, their autosomal DNA was mostly European and Berber (or native North African), with only a small amount of sub-Saharan DNA. If that amount was 10%, then it would be more correct to say that each % of hg L in Iberia only represents 0.1% of sub-Saharan African autosomal DNA. Even so, it is very theoretical and it could be less if L was already diluted when it reached the part of the Maghreb which provided the migrants to Iberia.


    Y-DNA Haplogroup E in Iberia

    For the sake of comparison, here is one of the most complete and up-to-date table of Y-haplogroup E in Iberia. It has 388 hg E samples out of 3553 samples in total (10.9% of E). Here is an explanation of the breakdown.

    - 0.48% of sub-Saharan E (E*, E1a, E1b1a)

    - 4.62% of Maghreban E (E-M81)

    - 1.72% of E1b1b1a (E-M78) and its subclades (E-V12, E-V13, E-V22). E-M78 and E-V22 are the dominant variants, pointing at a Phoenician origin. V12 and V22 are typically Levantine. There is only 0.59% of the typically Balkanic E-V13.

    - 0.74% of E1b1b1c (E-M123) + its subclade E-M34, which is most common from the Levant to the Arabian peninsula. It could be either of Phoenician or Arabic origin. Interestingly it peaks around Galicia and northern Portugal. I am not sure how to explain that. Could it be that the Phoenician had trading posts on the North-West coast, as a relay on their way to Britain ?

    - 2.84% of E1b1b (E-M215) and E1b1b1 (E-M35), which are the parents of all North African, Middle Eastern and European subclades of E. It could be either North African or Levantine.


    Conclusion

    Based on the more detailed "mirror" provided by Y-DNA, it is most likely that mtDNA haplogroup L in Iberia is of mixed North African (Maghreban) and Middle-Eastern (Phoenician, Arabic) origin. Indeed, there is about five times more Y-DNA E than mtDNA L in Iberia, and mtDNA L represents about one third of haplogroups among Berbers. Even without knowing the origin of the Iberian E-M215 and E-M35, if combined to E-M81, the percentage for continental Spain would be 6.8%, roughly three times more than mtDNA L, the same proportion as in the Maghreb. Other Berber mitochondrial lineages being identical to European ones (except U6, M1 and X1), they would be undetectable in the Iberian population.

    Furthermore, Women were less likely to travel so far away from home during the Arabic conquest, and even during the Phoenician colonisation, so the bulk of mtDNA L must have come almost exclusively from the nearby Maghreb.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 31-12-09 at 20:56.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Attention ! MtDNA does not equal autosomal DNA !

    Before you go any further with this discussion, let me explain why 2% of mtDNA L does not mean 2% of African admixture.

    Imagine that an Black African woman was brought to Europe 2000 years ago. She has children with a European. All her children belong, like her, to hg L. However she is 100% African, but her children are only 50%. Her children all marry white Europeans. Her sons' children won't have any African mtDNA, but about 25% of African autosomal DNA. Her daughters' children will be mtDNA L, and have 25% of African DNA. After 10 generations (about 300 years), if any of her descendant still carries her mtDNA line, they might not have any African autosomal DNA left, but mtDNA will still be there. Those hg L people might be pure Europeans with an African mitochondrial haplogroup. At most they will have 1% of African DNA.

    I am not aware of any direct settlement of Black Africans in Iberia. The amount of Black African Y-DNA is negligible like everywhere in Europe. Therefore, all the haplogroup L found in Iberia must be of Maghreban origin. This means that when L reached Iberia, its carriers already had an admixture of European, Berber and Black African DNA. Although 98% of Maghreban Y-DNA is North African (E-M81), up to 90% of their mtDNA lines are European (minimum 50% in the most Africanised tribes in southern Morocco). In other words, when women carrying hg L entered Iberia, their autosomal DNA was mostly European and Berber (or native North African), with only a small amount of sub-Saharan DNA. If that amount was 10%, then it would be more correct to say that each % of hg L in Iberia only represents 0.1% of sub-Saharan African autosomal DNA. Even so, it is very theoretical and it could be less if L was already diluted when it reached the part of the Maghreb which provided the migrants to Iberia.

    Maghreban Y-DNA in Iberia

    For the sake of comparison, here is one of the most complete and up-to-date table of Y-haplogroup E in Iberia. It has 388 hg E samples out of 3553 samples in total (10.9% of E). Here is an explanation of the breakdown.

    - 0.48% of sub-Saharan E (E*, E1a, E1b1a)

    - 4.62% of Maghreban E (E-M81)

    - 1.72% of E1b1b1a (E-M78) and its subclades (E-V12, E-V13, E-V22). E-M78 and E-V22 are the dominant variants, pointing at a Phoenician origin. V12 and V22 are typically Levantine. There is only 0.59% of the typically Balkanic E-V13.

    - 0.74% of E1b1b1c (E-M123) + its subclade E-M34, which is most common from the Levant to the Arabian peninsula. It could be either of Phoenician or Arabic origin. Interestingly it peaks around Galicia and northern Portugal. I am not sure how to explain that. Could it be that the Phoenician had trading posts on the North-West coast, as a relay on their way to Britain ?

    - 2.84% of E1b1b (E-M215) and E1b1b1 (E-M35), which are the parents of all North African, Middle Eastern and European subclades of E. It could be either North African or Levantine.


    Conclusion

    Based on the more detailed "mirror" provided by Y-DNA, it is most likely that mtDNA haplogroup L in Iberia is of mixed North African (Maghreban) and Middle-Eastern (Phoenician, Arabic) origin. Women were less likely to travel so far away from home during the Arabic conquest, and even during the Phoenician colonisation, so the bulk of mtDNA L must have come from the nearby Maghreb.
    Maciamo, but some of the E in Iberia is of greek origin, for example :

    E31b1a was considered to be a signature of Greek
    colonists in south Italy (Semino et al. 2004).
    Its presence in the Portuguese territory might have the same
    origin (see Table 5)
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118548798/PDFSTART

    And Maciamo, is not Haplogroup A a sub-saharan Y-DNA ? If we look at sub-sharan y-DNA in EUROPE :

    "Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E(xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Attention ! MtDNA does not equal autosomal DNA !

    Before you go any further with this discussion, let me explain why 2% of mtDNA L does not mean 2% of African admixture.

    Imagine that an Black African woman was brought to Europe 2000 years ago. She has children with a European. All her children belong, like her, to hg L. However she is 100% African, but her children are only 50%. Her children all marry white Europeans. Her sons' children won't have any African mtDNA, but about 25% of African autosomal DNA. Her daughters' children will be mtDNA L, and have 25% of African DNA. After 10 generations (about 300 years), if any of her descendant still carries her mtDNA line, they might not have any African autosomal DNA left, but mtDNA will still be there. Those hg L people might be pure Europeans with an African mitochondrial haplogroup. At most they will have 1% of African DNA.

    I am not aware of any direct settlement of Black Africans in Iberia. The amount of Black African Y-DNA is negligible like everywhere in Europe. Therefore, all the haplogroup L found in Iberia must be of Maghreban origin. This means that when L reached Iberia, its carriers already had an admixture of European, Berber and Black African DNA. Although 98% of Maghreban Y-DNA is North African (E-M81), up to 90% of their mtDNA lines are European (minimum 50% in the most Africanised tribes in southern Morocco). In other words, when women carrying hg L entered Iberia, their autosomal DNA was mostly European and Berber (or native North African), with only a small amount of sub-Saharan DNA. If that amount was 10%, then it would be more correct to say that each % of hg L in Iberia only represents 0.1% of sub-Saharan African autosomal DNA. Even so, it is very theoretical and it could be less if L was already diluted when it reached the part of the Maghreb which provided the migrants to Iberia.

    Maghreban Y-DNA in Iberia

    For the sake of comparison, here is one of the most complete and up-to-date table of Y-haplogroup E in Iberia. It has 388 hg E samples out of 3553 samples in total (10.9% of E). Here is an explanation of the breakdown.

    - 0.48% of sub-Saharan E (E*, E1a, E1b1a)

    - 4.62% of Maghreban E (E-M81)

    - 1.72% of E1b1b1a (E-M78) and its subclades (E-V12, E-V13, E-V22). E-M78 and E-V22 are the dominant variants, pointing at a Phoenician origin. V12 and V22 are typically Levantine. There is only 0.59% of the typically Balkanic E-V13.

    - 0.74% of E1b1b1c (E-M123) + its subclade E-M34, which is most common from the Levant to the Arabian peninsula. It could be either of Phoenician or Arabic origin. Interestingly it peaks around Galicia and northern Portugal. I am not sure how to explain that. Could it be that the Phoenician had trading posts on the North-West coast, as a relay on their way to Britain ?

    - 2.84% of E1b1b (E-M215) and E1b1b1 (E-M35), which are the parents of all North African, Middle Eastern and European subclades of E. It could be either North African or Levantine.


    Conclusion

    Based on the more detailed "mirror" provided by Y-DNA, it is most likely that mtDNA haplogroup L in Iberia is of mixed North African (Maghreban) and Middle-Eastern (Phoenician, Arabic) origin. Women were less likely to travel so far away from home during the Arabic conquest, and even during the Phoenician colonisation, so the bulk of mtDNA L must have come from the nearby Maghreb.

    Excellent information, Maciamo. Impressive.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    I have seen the table, and obvisouly it is misleading becasue of the Canary Islands.
    I don't know why they keep considering the Canaries as Iberian when they should not be considered as Iberians, because of the presence of the natives related to the berbers, who are E-M81(14.6%).
    So, the precentage of E and E-M81 in 'real' Iberians is MUCH lower
    And please , I just want to get facts straight, don't talk me again about the same story of being insecure and crap like that. La verdad siempre por delante !

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I have seen the table, and obvisouly it is misleading becasue of the Canary Islands.
    I don't know why they keep considering the Canaries as Iberian when they should not be considered as Iberians, because of the presence of the natives related to the berbers, who are E-M81(14.6%).
    So, the precentage of E and E-M81 in 'real' Iberians is much lower than 10%.
    And please , I just want to get facts straight, don't talk me again about the same story of being whites or europeans and crap like that.
    The same can be said for Madeira. Again, why are genetic "researchers" including DNA samples that are not representative of the native origin population? These people are hardly stupid, but they are doing VERY stupid things in their work...

  6. #6
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Maciamo, but some of the E in Iberia is of greek origin, for example :

    E31b1a was considered to be a signature of Greek
    colonists in south Italy (Semino et al. 2004).
    Its presence in the Portuguese territory might have the same
    origin (see Table 5)
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118548798/PDFSTART
    Greek E1b1b is mostly E-V13, which is rare in Iberia. It's only one of many haplogroups that represent the Greeks, along with J2b, some subclades of J2a, "Eastern" R1b, R1a, G2a... Anyway, it's not surprising not to find more Greek DNA in Spain as the Greeks only had a few minor settlements in Catalonia, like in Emporium, and around Valencia. The Phoenicians had 3x more colonies just in Andalusia.

    And Maciamo, is not Haplogroup A a sub-saharan Y-DNA ? If we look at sub-sharan y-DNA in EUROPE :

    "Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E(xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture.
    Where did you find those percentages about haplogroup A ? In all the major Y-DNA studies I know of, hg A has only been detected a few times here and there, nothing statistically relevant.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I have seen the table, and obvisouly it is misleading becasue of the Canary Islands.
    I don't know why they keep considering the Canaries as Iberian when they should not be considered as Iberians, because of the presence of the natives related to the berbers, who are E-M81(14.6%).
    So, the precentage of E and E-M81 in 'real' Iberians is MUCH lower
    And please , I just want to get facts straight, don't talk me again about the same story of being insecure and crap like that. La verdad siempre por delante !
    In all fairness there are only 28 samples from the Canaries (all E-M81), out of 388 hg E. You can deduct the 0.8 % from the Canaries but E-M81 remains the main subclade of E in Iberia.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    To summarize, here are the sub-saharan African mtDNA L lineages frequencies found in Spain. This includes ALL the data ever published so far about Spain (1466 distinct individuals from continental Spain and 531 from Spanish Islands)

    1) Continental Spain

    Spain, northwestern : 8/216 =3.70%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, central : 1/148 =0.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Andalusia: 2/114 =1.75%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, northeastern : 3/179 =1.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Basque Country: 1/156 =0.64%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, all regions : 9/312 =2.90%, Alvarez 2007
    Spain, Pyreneans : 0/233 =0.00%, Lopez-Parra 2009
    Spain, Cordoba : 9/108 =8.30%, Casas 2006 (highest frequency found in Spain)

    2) Islands

    Spain, Balearic : 5/231 =2.20%, Picornell 2005
    Spain, Canaries : 20/300 =6.60%, Brehm 2003

    3) Of course, because nations are political construct and because northern populations are overrepresented in the studies, it would not make sense at all to average regions with totally different histories like Basque Country (lowest frequency in Spain) or the province of Cordoba (highest frequency in Spain at 8.30%, almost similar to South Portugal) but if we want to do it we get :

    Continental : 33/1466 = 2.25 %
    All Spain (including Balearic and Canaries) : 58/1997 = 2.90%



    =Sources=

    a) Achilli 2007 (Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans) aggregated data from the following sources :

    Salas 1998, mtDNA analysis of the Galician population: a genetic edge of European variation.
    Richards 2000, Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool
    Crespillo 2000, Mitochondrial DNA sequences for 118 individuals from northeastern Spain
    Larruga 2001, Mitochondrial DNA characterisation of European isolates: the Maragatos from Spain
    Plaza 2003, Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.
    González 2003, Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe

    b) Others studies not included by Achilli 2007

    Brehm 2003, Mitochondrial portraits of the Madeira and Açores archipelagos witness different genetic pools of its settlers
    Picornell 2005, Mitochondrial DNA HVRI Variation in Balearic Populations
    Casas 2006, Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain
    Alvarez 2007, Characterization of human control region sequences for Spanish individuals in a forensic mtDNA data set
    Lopez-Parra 2009, Preliminary results of mitochondrial DNA sequence variation in Spanish Pyrenean populations
    Pereira 2005 (African Female Heritage in Iberia) only analysed samples from the studies above and did not include any new samples.

  9. #9
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by luis77 View Post
    To summarize, here are the sub-saharan African mtDNA L lineages frequencies found in Spain. This includes ALL the data ever published so far about Spain (1466 distinct individuals from continental Spain and 531 from Spanish Islands)
    1) Continental Spain
    Spain, northwestern : 8/216 =3.70%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, central : 1/148 =0.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Andalusia: 2/114 =1.75%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, northeastern : 3/179 =1.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Basque Country: 1/156 =0.64%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, all regions : 9/312 =2.90%, Alvarez 2007
    Spain, Pyreneans : 0/233 =0.00%, Lopez-Parra 2009
    Spain, Cordoba : 9/108 =8.30%, Casas 2006 (highest frequency found in Spain)
    2) Islands
    Spain, Balearic : 5/231 =2.20%, Lopez-Parra 2009
    Spain, Canaries : 20/300 =6.60%, Brehm 2003
    3) Of course it does not make sense at all to average regions with totally different histories like Basque Country (lowest frequency in Spain) or the province of Cordoba (highest frequency in Spain at 8.30%, almost similar to South Portugal) but if we want to do it we get :
    Continental : 33/1466 = 2.25 %
    All Spain (including Balearic and Canaries) : 58/1997 = 2.90%
    Thanks a lot for all the data.

    There is no surprise in finding more mtDNA L in the Canaries and Andalusia than in the Basque country. North-West Spain (and northern Portugal, I presume) is the second region outside the isles, after Andalusia, for both mtDNA L and Y-DNA E1b1b. Galicia has nearly 15% of haplogroup E1b1b, and all of it looks North African (not Levantine or Arabic). North Portugal has 12%.

    The record high in Iberia is the border of Extremadura (19%) and Portugal (28% in Portalegre, 13% in Guarda, 12% in Castelo Branco). I wonder if there is a connection with the Andalusian Neolithic culture of La Almagra Pottery. It is one of the oldest Neolithic cultures in Europe. It is almost 8,000 years old (older than the spread of agriculture through the Balkans !) and appears out of nowhere. It seems to have a connection with the Maghreb.

    It could be imagined that these early Iberians would have been pushed north-westward from Andalusia to Extremadura, Portugal and Galicia by the successive waves of new settlers (Indo-Europeans, Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals...). A lot of mtDNA L might date from La Almagra culture as well.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks a lot for all the data.

    There is no surprise in finding more mtDNA L in the Canaries and Andalusia than in the Basque country. North-West Spain (and northern Portugal, I presume) is the second region outside the isles, after Andalusia, for both mtDNA L and Y-DNA E1b1b. Galicia has nearly 15% of haplogroup E1b1b, and all of it looks North African (not Levantine or Arabic). North Portugal has 12%.

    The record high in Iberia is the border of Extremadura (19%) and Portugal (28% in Portalegre, 13% in Guarda, 12% in Castelo Branco). I wonder if there is a connection with the Andalusian Neolithic culture of La Almagra Pottery. It is one of the oldest Neolithic cultures in Europe. It is almost 8,000 years old (older than the spread of agriculture through the Balkans !) and appears out of nowhere. It seems to have a connection with the Maghreb.

    It could be imagined that these early Iberians would have been pushed north-westward from Andalusia to Extremadura, Portugal and Galicia by the successive waves of new settlers (Indo-Europeans, Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals...). A lot of mtDNA L might date from La Almagra culture as well.
    Excellent observations. Many do not to understand how old and "regional" some of this DNA is and that much of it originated in NW Africa.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    I don't know why all of a sudden the discussion turned to the L mtDNA, There is already a thread about it.
    Anyways, obviously the L level in Iberia is about 2%, pretty much the average in Europe. It is very old, maybe from pre-Neolithic..
    Maciamo do you have the sources for this percentages you mention? Thanks

  12. #12
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    I'm surprised that none still has mentioned the special case of Valle de Pasiegos (Pasiegos Valley).

    Valle de Pasiegos is a very isolated region in Cantabria (North-Spain) and next to the Basque Country.



    Its habitants have a very characteristic culture and traditions. Their language has some resemblances with asturianu and some words from euskera (basque) also.






    The frequency of E3b in this isolated region is about 40% and is believed to come from the times of the Megalitic culture.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Yes, even some studies say the E-M81 started there, and then this people went to north-africa, and that would explain why some ancient bereber languages have a relationship with proto-Basque.

  14. #14
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    06-12-09
    Posts
    14


    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Maciamo,
    I have a question in regards to J and E oin the balkans. are these two haplogroups in the form of J2e and E-V13 or are they others? As i would guess greeks would have signiicant impact on the balkans due to geographc proximity etc.. or even being part of the balkans in some sense

  15. #15
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Alex D. View Post
    Maciamo,
    I have a question in regards to J and E oin the balkans. are these two haplogroups in the form of J2e and E-V13 or are they others? As i would guess greeks would have signiicant impact on the balkans due to geographc proximity etc.. or even being part of the balkans in some sense
    That's a different topic altogether, but farming spread from Anatolia to the Thessalian plain in northern Greece, and from there to the Balkans. The early farmers mostly belonged to hg E-V13, J2b, but with also some T, G2a, E-M78 and J2*.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Greek E1b1b is mostly E-V13, which is rare in Iberia. It's only one of many haplogroups that represent the Greeks, along with J2b, some subclades of J2a, "Eastern" R1b, R1a, G2a... Anyway, it's not surprising not to find more Greek DNA in Spain as the Greeks only had a few minor settlements in Catalonia, like in Emporium, and around Valencia. The Phoenicians had 3x more colonies just in Andalusia.
    No.
    Southern Portugal had greek settlements, which later repopulated the north , (POrto = Cale ,) ( Lisobon = Olissipona) there was also greek trade in Galleaecia

  17. #17
    Baron Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Drac's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-01-10
    Posts
    244
    Points
    3,565
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,565, Level: 17
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by luis77 View Post
    To summarize, here are the sub-saharan African mtDNA L lineages frequencies found in Spain. This includes ALL the data ever published so far about Spain (1466 distinct individuals from continental Spain and 531 from Spanish Islands)

    1) Continental Spain

    Spain, northwestern : 8/216 =3.70%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, central : 1/148 =0.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Andalusia: 2/114 =1.75%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, northeastern : 3/179 =1.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Basque Country: 1/156 =0.64%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, all regions : 9/312 =2.90%, Alvarez 2007
    Spain, Pyreneans : 0/233 =0.00%, Lopez-Parra 2009
    Spain, Cordoba : 9/108 =8.30%, Casas 2006 (highest frequency found in Spain)

    2) Islands

    Spain, Balearic : 5/231 =2.20%, Picornell 2005
    Spain, Canaries : 20/300 =6.60%, Brehm 2003

    3) Of course, because nations are political construct and because northern populations are overrepresented in the studies, it would not make sense at all to average regions with totally different histories like Basque Country (lowest frequency in Spain) or the province of Cordoba (highest frequency in Spain at 8.30%, almost similar to South Portugal) but if we want to do it we get :

    Continental : 33/1466 = 2.25 %

    All Spain (including Balearic and Canaries) : 58/1997 = 2.90%
    Nope, as pointed out in another thread, you manipulated the data from at least one of the studies so you could try to inflate the frequencies in Spain to suit your obvious agenda. Casas et al. 2006 only considered L1-L2 sequences to be of sub-Saharan origin, so the actual data for that paper should be like this:

    Spain, Priego de Cordoba : 1/108 =0.9%, Casas 2006

    You also "mysteriously" left out the data for Pereira et al. 2005 in this latest "calculation" of yours:

    Pereira et al. (2005) 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)

    Providing that the data for some of these other papers (Alvarez 2007, Picornell 2005, Brehm 2003) you refer to have not been manipulated as well, the actual frequencies are:

    Spain, northwestern : 8/216 =3.70%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, central : 1/148 =0.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Andalusia: 2/114 =1.75%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, northeastern : 3/179 =1.68%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, Basque Country: 1/156 =0.64%, Achilli 2007
    Spain, all regions : 9/312 =2.90%, Alvarez 2007
    Spain, Pyreneans : 0/233 =0.00%, Lopez-Parra 2009
    Spain, Priego de Cordoba : 1/108 =0.9%, Casas 2006
    Spain, all regions: 8/496 = 1.61%, Pereira 2005

    Continental : 33/1962 = 1.68%

    2) Islands

    Spain, Balearic : 5/231 =2.20%, Picornell 2005
    Spain, Canaries : 20/300 =6.60%, Brehm 2003

    All Spain (including Balearic and Canaries) : 58/2493 = 2.32%

  18. #18
    Baron Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Drac's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-01-10
    Posts
    244
    Points
    3,565
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,565, Level: 17
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is no surprise in finding more mtDNA L in the Canaries and Andalusia than in the Basque country. North-West Spain (and northern Portugal, I presume) is the second region outside the isles, after Andalusia, for both mtDNA L and Y-DNA E1b1b. Galicia has nearly 15% of haplogroup E1b1b, and all of it looks North African (not Levantine or Arabic).
    I'm not sure where are you getting this frequency for Galicia from, but Capelli et al. 2009 found E1b1b there at only 6.8%. Adams et al. 2008 (a rather fishy paper, I may add) I think claimed 9%. I'm not sure at this moment if "all of it looks North African", as it seems I can no longer find the specific data for these papers (it was available at some blogs and forums before.)

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    There is no surprise in finding more mtDNA L in the Canaries and Andalusia than in the Basque country. North-West Spain (and northern Portugal, I presume) is the second region outside the isles, after Andalusia, for both mtDNA L and Y-DNA E1b1b. Galicia has nearly 15% of haplogroup E1b1b, and all of it looks North African (not Levantine or Arabic).
    Galicia has only 1.49% of E1b1b according to this :
    http://iberianroots.com/statistics/i...peninsula.html

  20. #20
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    I'm not sure where are you getting this frequency for Galicia from, but Capelli et al. 2009 found E1b1b there at only 6.8%. Adams et al. 2008 (a rather fishy paper, I may add) I think claimed 9%. I'm not sure at this moment if "all of it looks North African", as it seems I can no longer find the specific data for these papers (it was available at some blogs and forums before.)
    It's an average of several studies. Adams found nearly 17% of E1b1b in Galicia (9% is only for E-M81). Flores found a stunning 31.6%, including 10% of E-M81 and 10% of E-M123. Gonçalves found 21% of E1b1b in nearby North Portugal (higher than in Central or Southern Portugal), which does not seem to contradict Adams nor Flores.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's an average of several studies. Adams found nearly 17% of E1b1b in Galicia (9% is only for E-M81). Flores found a stunning 31.6%, including 10% of E-M81 and 10% of E-M123.
    The Adams paper has been heavily criticized and there are credibility issues surrounding it. I have no idea how Flores, et al. came up with such high figures. Perhaps someone here can provide perspective.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Maciamo, your numbers seem very exaggerated. According to this there is only 1.49% of E1b1b in Galicia :
    http://iberianroots.com/statistics/i...peninsula.html

  23. #23
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,547
    Points
    325,970
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,970, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Galicia has only 1.49% of E1b1b according to this :
    http://iberianroots.com/statistics/i...peninsula.html
    You obviously cannot read. The total for E1b1b subclades in Galicia is 1.49% + 5.22% + 0.75% + 7.46% = 14.92%.

    I am getting fed up of Iberians trying to deny the remotest connection with anything that sounds African (even if it isn't), be it haplogroup E, trying to prove that they are pure Celts, etc. I am not sure if you realise, but you look pathetic and childish (and complexed, I should add) for people from other countries.

    Haplogroup E1b1b is present in all Europeans. We would look very different without it. Based on mtDNA, it seems that the Italo-Celts intermarried heavily with Near-Eastern farmers (whose paternal lineages were mostly E1b1b) when they penetrated into the Danube valley and settled in central Europe. In fact, Indo-European R1b looked a bit Mongoloid, so modern Europeans probably own their facial traits and head shape more to their Neolithic maternal ancestors than to Indo-Europeans. We got other things from Indo-Europeans, like red hair or lactose tolerance, though.

    Celtic language was Indo-European, but borrowed heavily from Afro-Asiatic languages spoken in central Europe during the Neolithic. Latin itself borrowed even more words and grammar from Near-Eastern languages through Etruscan. The languages that remained "purest" or closest to the Proto-Indo-European are Balto-Slavic languages, especially Polish and Russian.

    It's ironic that the original Indo-European homeland (roughly from Moldova to Georgia/Chechenya), which would give Europe bronze working, horse riding, chariots, swords, wool clothes, apples, plums, lactose tolerance, etc. is now the poorest, and in many ways most backwards, part of Europe.

  24. #24
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Flores found a stunning 31.6%, including 10% of E-M81 and 10% of E-M123.
    Pretty weird that study, they found 0% of haplogroups J and E in Catalonia???

    Besides the sample sizes are kinda lame (except for Seville and North Portugal).

    Greetings.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You obviously cannot read. The total for E1b1b subclades in Galicia is 1.49% + 5.22% + 0.75% + 7.46% = 14.92%.
    I am getting fed up of Iberians trying to deny the remotest connection with anything that sounds African (even if it isn't), be it haplogroup E, trying to prove that they are pure Celts, etc. I am not sure if you realise, but you look pathetic and childish (and complexed, I should add) for people from other countries.
    Maciamo, I think some of us have gone over this with you. There are tremendous racial lies and exaggerations floating around about Iberians. I'm sure you can agree with that. And, who is trying to prove Iberians are "pure Celts"? I don't even believe there are definitive Celtic DNA markers, only people from Celtic cultures who may be somewhat related genetically. Moreover, I can't recall anyone claiming that Iberia is ALL Celtic or "pure" Celtic. I'm certainly not guilty of making such statements.

    There are seriously pathological people in this world who seem to get great satisfaction by racially slandering certain ethnicities, and some are not just deranged racists. There is much correction to be done, I'm afraid...

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. African American Y-DNA & mtDNA Haplogroup Breakdown
    By elghund in forum Genetic Genealogy & Haplogroups
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-11-11, 00:43
  2. The Celts of Iberia
    By Cambrius (The Red) in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 1554
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 06:30
  3. Ancient place names in Iberia
    By Taranis in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 226
    Last Post: 05-10-11, 01:01
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 19-09-10, 19:46

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •