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Thread: pre-Indoeuropeans in Europe

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    pre-Indoeuropeans in Europe



    How different did pre-indoeuropeans peoples of Europe, look compared to the indo-europeans who invaded europe ?

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    Europe wasn't homogenous prior to the IE invasion. It was already hybridised between indigenous haplogroup I populations and Near-Eastern farmers. The hg I populations were not even the same everywhere. Western and northern populations (Iberia, Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia) were strongly dolicocephalic (long-headed) and rather tall and robust. The Eastern I2a2 people were apparently more brachycephalic (broad-headed). Near-Easterners were gracile and of shorter stature, probably dolicocephalic and narrow-faced.

    I have been looking for more accurate data for a while, but cannot find anything. I wish I could find a book with various anthropometric measurements from all periods and regions of European prehistory.

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    The question is: When the aryan invasion took place.

    The oetzi man from Alps was blue eyed and brown hair. It tells us smth about apearance of pre-aryan europeans.

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    Indo-europeans were from the southern Russia steppes, I suppose they were not that different from the pre-indoeuropean Eastern euroepans of that time..

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    I think that Aryans lived togetherwith mongols in the Central Azia and Siberia, before they came to Europe. But, I don't see the spread of aryan languages as only one movement.

    There were a lot of invasions to each other that created aryan languages.

    It is an invasion of J2b from Balkan to the Anatolia, Persia and India.
    An invasion of E3b from Balkan to other Europe countries.
    And an invasion of R1a1 from Central Asia to Europe.

    Because of that, thare are some similarities between some languages which are not foun in other languages.

    So in Basque language "Bi" means "Two". In Latin language "Bini" means "Double". And in Albanian language "Binjak" means "twins" (it is used onëly for 2 twins, because fro 3 twins it is "Trinjak").

    We don't find in other languages word with root "Bi", which has the meaning of "two".

    Than, in germanic languages "Thousand", in slavic "Hiljada", nor these have the same root, between themselves nor with "Miles" of latin language.

    So I think there were a lot of invasions which created aryan languages.

    As for aryans of R1a1 I think they were smth like russians, or blonde indians, or blonde iranians.

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    Actually in Polish or Russian Thousand (German, tausen) is pronounced Tisyatz.
    It's hard to write phonetically as in polish there are about 40 distinctive sounds, (don't make me start on grammar, lol, it might be the most difficult language in the world). The numerals are quite ancient, and might show links between families of languages. Here are first 10 numerals.
    yeden
    dva
    tri (i like in fish)
    tzteri
    piatz
    shestz
    syedem
    osyem
    dzyevietz
    dzyesietz

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    Maybe "Hiljada" is only South Slavic, and is borrowed from "Kilo" greek word.

    But again there are differencies between Thousand, Kilo, and Mile !

    That means that were several invasions which created aryan languages.

    We may group Balto-slavic and Indo-iranian, in one language groups, which show the affects of R1a1 invasion. For example "Jedan" (serbian), yeden (polish), Yek (Roma).

    In the west languages, is present the letter N, for example, one (english), Eins (german), Uno (latin), Një (albanian), Enya (greek), etc.

    We conclude that, one expansion created the word YE*, and another expansion created word ENE* (with "E" I mean just a sound, and not "e").

    So, some words are comon for all IE, but some other words are comon only for a group of IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    So in Basque language "Bi" means "Two". In Latin language "Bini" means "Double". And in Albanian language "Binjak" means "twins" (it is used onëly for 2 twins, because fro 3 twins it is "Trinjak").

    We don't find in other languages word with root "Bi", which has the meaning of "two".
    In Indian language Gujarati, Word for two is 'be' (spoken like bay). However it may be just coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hershal View Post
    In Indian language Gujarati, Word for two is 'be' (spoken like bay). However it may be just coincidence.
    Not surprising that it is "be" since Gujarati is an Indo-Aryan language and probably a direct descendant of Sanskrit.

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    Maybe the pre-Indoeuropeans looked like this

    http://5488424697356139-a-1802744773...attredirects=0

    and this is their direct descendants

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...5386347&page=1

    Do you see any resemblance? I must admit that reconstructed man from Lichtenstein cave looks much more like aging Brad Pitt.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Cave

    Looking at the DNA it looks like the group buried in the cave was already a mixture of pre-Indo-European and Indo-European people. Which isn't really unexpected since the remains originate from only about 1000 B.C.E.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Cave

    Looking at the DNA it looks like the group buried in the cave was already a mixture of pre-Indo-European and Indo-European people. Which isn't really unexpected since the remains originate from only about 1000 B.C.E.
    Yes, that's true. Though a majority of their y dna is I2b2. The man and women on the right side looks like contemporary Europeans, and women on the left side, I don't know why, have some features which don't look like European to me and have something more archaic in face expression.

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    Well, I left the woman seems to me entirely European-looking.

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    They all look like normal modern Europeans. If dressed in modern clothing they could walk down the street in any European city and never get a second look.


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    Impressive reconstruction. Thanks for posting.

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    Have you see the actress Sissy Spacek? I think she looks exactly like the woman in the right

    http://www.nndb.com/people/758/000023689/

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    Sissy Spacek and Brat Pit, What is the title of the movie?

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    there was never a homogenous nation in europe...from the history of my native country we know that before the so called greek tribes started invading the lower part of the balkan peninsula ,the were other people already living there..the minoans for example in crete were of that stock..the greek tribes started coming down the region with the demise of those culture, and they created what is called ancient greece...there were 3 main greek clans, the dorians (spartans and macedonians belonged in it),the aeolians (thessalians) and ionians (athenians)..ancient greece was never a homogenous nation only located in the south, as you in europe believe, but many tribes and clans, just like the celtic ones, divided in different city states, democracies, kingdoms, oligarchies and so on....greece was athens sparta corinth and thebes, but also epirus macedonia thessaly and even possible phrygia in asia minor...from linguistic and ethnically point of view they found out the the phrygians spoke a greek dialect and their culture was similar...on the other hand, thracians and dacians (that lived in today romania) thought to be related nations, greeks phrygians and illyrians thought to belong in another group....

    those clans obviously mixed with the already existing ones, and created the ancient greek culture and civilization as we know it....so whatever happened in greece, obviously happened all over europe...people mixing, creating new ethnicities, aryans and non aryans alike....we should be proud of our diversity as it is this diversity and mixing of ethnic backgrounds that created the first european civilization in greece, that later expanded with more mixing and interaction with other tribes, all over europe....

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    Exactly what it was, endless mixing, pushing, moving, fighting, uniting, splitting, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Exactly what it was, endless mixing, pushing, moving, fighting, uniting, splitting, etc.

    Looking at world news today it is still going on!

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    Is this true that first, they were settled in southern Ukraine/Russia (kourgans hypothesis) ?

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    It depends of the times. The first "Indo-european" were probably looking as the actual inhabitants of Central Asia. But with the travels through Europe, they have mixed with the locals. For those last, we know few things, but according to the actual physical types, they were probably the contrary of the invaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Europe wasn't homogenous prior to the IE invasion. It was already hybridised between indigenous haplogroup I populations and Near-Eastern farmers. The hg I populations were not even the same everywhere. Western and northern populations (Iberia, Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia) were strongly dolicocephalic (long-headed) and rather tall and robust. The Eastern I2a2 people were apparently more brachycephalic (broad-headed). Near-Easterners were gracile and of shorter stature, probably dolicocephalic and narrow-faced.

    I have been looking for more accurate data for a while, but cannot find anything. I wish I could find a book with various anthropometric measurements from all periods and regions of European prehistory.

    Pranešimai: 91

    Parašytas: Št. 06-02-2010 0630 Rašyti temą: Antropologinės klasifikacijos (įvairios)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Antropologinės klasifikacijos pagal Hansą Giunterį (1891-1968)



    1,2 Šiaurietiškasis (nordinis, nordisch) tipas;
    3,4 Vakarų (westlich) tipas
    5,6 Felinis (faelisch) tipas
    7,8 Dinarinis (dinarisch) tipas;
    9, 10 Ostbaltinis (Rytų Baltijos, ostbaltisch) tipas;
    11,12 Rytų (ostisch) tipas;



    Paskutinį kartą redagavo Wolfsangel, Sk. 07-02-2010 1839.


    Hello Maciamo ! I am not allowed to post links . There is: Klasifikacijos iš Dr. B.Shultz knygos "Deutsche Rassenkopfe" ; Rasinės klasifikacijos pagal B.Skerlj ;Hans Giunter(1891-1968);Klasifikacijos pagal J.Čekanovskį- Nordinė rasė ; Karlton Stevens Kun (1904-1981) in Lithuanian language with pictures on eforum.lt

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