Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Race and Haplogroups

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    Race and Haplogroups



    Italy = 50% Dinaricized Mediterranean (most common in the south and Sicily), 20% Dinaric (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in the northwest), 10% West Mediterranean (most common in Sardinia), 4% Noric (most common in the north, 1% Nordic (most common in the remnants of the Ostrogoth and Lombard aristocracy) = 5% Nordish (1% central and 4% periphery types). Italy, much like the other southern European countries of the Mediterranean region -- Spain, Portugal and Greece -- experienced several waves of Nordish invasions during ancient and early Medieval times, from the Danubians (circa 2,000-1,500 B.C.), who brought the Indo-European language that developed into Latin, and the Kelts (beginning circa 500 B.C.), to the Germanic Ostrogoths and Lombards (A.D. 400-700). These Nordish elements have been gradually assimilated into the majority Mediterranean population, but some of their genetic traits, existing in solution, occasionally recombine to appear in individuals whose other traits are mostly non-Nordish.
    As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
    West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
    Nordic together with R1a.
    Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.

  2. #2
    Landlord Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    52


    Country: United States



    what about east mediterranean greeks? isnt there a east med race as well? and what about the maltese? and how about the armenian armenoid type? are they j2 j1 or e? arabians are j1 the arabid type i think! you also forgot I1 which is aboriginal scandinavian

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,639
    Points
    9,830
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,830, Level: 29
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 120
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by maltesekid View Post
    what about east mediterranean greeks? isnt there a east med race as well? and what about the maltese? and how about the armenian armenoid type? are they j2 j1 or e? arabians are j1 the arabid type i think! you also forgot I1 which is aboriginal scandinavian
    The I1 was born in Iberia,


  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,639
    Points
    9,830
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,830, Level: 29
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 120
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
    West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
    Nordic together with R1a.
    Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.
    Where is the scientific foundation of this ??

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
    West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
    Nordic together with R1a.
    Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.
    What reference(s) are you using? I don't believe some of what you quoting is accurate.

  6. #6
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,583
    Points
    342,321
    Level
    100
    Points: 342,321, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 81.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    R1b is the dominant haplogroup in parts of Cameroon, among the Bashkirs in Russia, in some parts of central India, and in some Afghan tribes. These people do not look at all like each others, and not at all like the Irish, the Basque or Northern Italians, who also don't look like each others.

    I think this shows well how Y-DNA has very little to do with looks.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-01-10 at 12:44.

  7. #7
    Landlord Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    52


    Country: United States



    yeah so how do you determine how someone looks ? autosomal?

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,583
    Points
    342,321
    Level
    100
    Points: 342,321, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 81.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by maltesekid View Post
    yeah so how do you determine how someone looks ? autosomal?
    yes, autosomal

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    I opened the thread to talk about THE LAST apearence of a group people which belong to a certain haplogroup, before they settlet in certain places.

    In Northwest Italia are a lot of alpines, and a lot of R1b. This is fact.

    That means that these are invaders from other places where alpines R1b lived.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    Also, we find in Sardinia a lot of I1a1 and also a West mediterranean Race.

    Also we find I1a1 in Spain, together with West mediteranean race. So we conclude that before arriving of R1b, the Iberia was I1a1.

    And we conclude that I1a1 at one time was linked to West mediteranean race.

  11. #11
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-12-09
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    102


    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
    West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
    Nordic together with R1a.
    Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.
    How do you define Dinaric? As in, the mountains? If so, the highest frequency haplogroup is I2a2. E1b1b seems to be regulated to Albania with highest frequency and become much lower in any direction.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    I2a2 is linked to slavic people. In the highest level of I2a2, we find cephalic index 86.

    But in the Albania we find cephalic index 88. So E1b1b is linked to dinaric race.

    I2a2 took dinaric features after they marry local illyrian woman.

  13. #13
    Baron Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    rms2's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-09
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    304

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21 (S145, M529)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2

    Ethnic group
    British/Irish
    Country: United States



    Linking race to y-dna haplogroups is an almost impossible task, except perhaps in some sort of very broad and general terms. Autosomal dna is recombinant. It does not identify itself neatly; that is, it doesn't tell you where it came from. Some traits are dominant, and others are recessive. That plays out across the whole panoply of human physiological and phenotypical characteristics. It's just too complex a subject to enable us to say, simply, that this y haplogroup is "Nordic" or that one is "Alpine," etc.

    The best one can do is say that certain y haplogroups are mostly European, while others are mostly African or Asian, etc. Even then there are exceptions and overlaps.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,639
    Points
    9,830
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,830, Level: 29
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 120
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..etc

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,641
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..etc
    You have to properly analyse the STRs and the subclades to determine genetic native origin. A person can be R1b and have STRs and subclade markers that are far different from other R1b persons. R1b from the Atlantic end of Europe, for example, is generally quite dissimilar to what is found in, say, the eastern or northern areas of the continent.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 09-01-10 at 23:03.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..
    It is out of topic.

    I am talking of completely diferent thread.

    It is not hard to see, that R1b, was alpine before coming to Italy.

    Hmmm, Yes, it could be and Negro in another place or another time, ort mogol, or even dog or wolf.

    BUT...

    I am saying BEFORE COMING FROM ALPS TO ITALY.

    They were alpine people in Alps or Gallia, with R1b. This brought alpine race and R1b in the Italy.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,639
    Points
    9,830
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,830, Level: 29
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 120
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    It is out of topic.
    Hmmm, Yes, it could be and Negro in another place or another time, ort mogol, or even dog or wolf.

    BUT...

    I am saying BEFORE COMING FROM ALPS TO ITALY.

    They were alpine people in Alps or Gallia, with R1b. This brought alpine race and R1b in the Italy.
    Actually Cameroon has a pocket of R1b people...But obviously is not the same branch of R1b as the one found in Europe..

  18. #18
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-12-09
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    102


    Country: Croatia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    I2a2 is linked to slavic people. In the highest level of I2a2, we find cephalic index 86.

    But in the Albania we find cephalic index 88. So E1b1b is linked to dinaric race.

    I2a2 took dinaric features after they marry local illyrian woman.
    What are you talking about? Are you really this delusional?

    Firstly, I should address the point you made. With respect to Illyrians, the inhabitant haplogroups were there thousands of years prior to "Illyria." So, I would assume a mixture of E1b1b and I2a2, with E1b1b relagated to a few Illyria tribes in the south. I would assume the Illyria's north of Albania to be I2a2 with a very high concentration in Hercegovina. Most Illyrian tribes would be I2a2. The Illyrian tribes that came in contact with Greeks would probably be E1b1b and I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was Stolac, Hercogina - this haplogroup would most definitely be I2a2.

    Secondly, the Dinaric Alps constitute a much broader area from Albania to Slovenia. The haplogroup with the highest frequency is I2a2. E1b1b is regulated to Albania.

    Please show evidence that the E1b1b has the cephalic index of 88 and I2a2 of 86. This is pure speculation and nonsense. If you got this from a cephalic index map, it is hardly a measure of haplogroup correlation with cephalic index. You continue to make things up.

    Thirdly, the fact that I2a2 is found in slavic countries has nothing to do with the the highest frequency being found among the Dinaric Alps. This is more attest to gene flow from the Dinaric Alps into slavic countries. E1b1b does not show the same gene flow, so, one would assume it's not as fit for the climate as I2a2 is.

    Everything you have posted about this is rhetoric that is fancied in a way that you draw erroneous inferences from presumptions.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    20-05-09
    Posts
    217
    Points
    3,668
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,668, Level: 17
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 182
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Croatia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I2a2 has certainly not been brought with the Slavs.
    in western Croatia,which is untouched by Turks and keeps the original Croatian dialect,and is considered the 'purest' Slavic area in Croatia,you have 38% of R1a and only 9.5% of dinaric I2a,which is btw nothing more than amount of I2a found in northern Italian province of Trento,which is certainly not Slavic in any way(see 'agricultural diffusion southeast europe')
    in dinaric areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina you have over 70% I2a and only 12% R1a.
    Second highest concentration of I2a outside east Adriatic-western Balkans is in Romanian historical province of Moldova(41%).
    P.S. i don't believe there is 25% of I2a in Belarus,they should make a new study.Haplogroup I classification has changed significantly in time.

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,515
    Points
    29,187
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,187, Level: 52
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 563
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    I2a2 has certainly not been brought with the Slavs.
    in western Croatia,which is untouched by Turks and keeps the original Croatian dialect,and is considered the 'purest' Slavic area in Croatia,you have 38% of R1a and only 9.5% of dinaric I2a,which is btw nothing more than amount of I2a found in northern Italian province of Trento,which is certainly not Slavic in any way(see 'agricultural diffusion southeast europe')
    in dinaric areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina you have over 70% I2a and only 12% R1a.
    Second highest concentration of I2a outside east Adriatic-western Balkans is in Romanian historical province of Moldova(41%).
    P.S. i don't believe there is 25% of I2a in Belarus,they should make a new study.Haplogroup I classification has changed significantly in time.

    Hi Joro, look at this map.
    http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20090604081328
    North of Carpathian Mountains there are two tribes : W.Chrobatians and R.Chrobations (Ch=H). I checked few sources and it means Horvats. In English it translates as White Croats and Red Croats. Croats arrived in Dinaric Alps around 600 BC with Slavic Expansion. Where did they come from? If one can trust this map and some historians, it might show the remnants of Croatians tribes that didn't move south. I read in polish text that White Croats stopped North the Red Croats South in Dinaric Mountains. Now when you look at the map where Red Chrobatians are. They are located exactly between Moldova in south, and Belarus in north. Now the puzzle of heavy I2a in Moldova, South Croatia and Belarus makes sense.
    White Chrobatians come from region also called Little Poland and heavy in R1a.
    Not sure myself how much water it holds, but it makes some sense. What do you think? It would explain the colours on your flag though.

    Recently I've read few research papers, in polish though futile to post here then. The thing is that more and more historians come to conclusion that first millennium (probably much before) Slavs in central Europe where already a mixture of R1a and I2a, and not pure R1a.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    Actually Cameroon has a pocket of R1b people...But obviously is not the same branch of R1b as the one found in Europe..
    Cool...

    I ask you what race were these R1b during their invasion in the Cameroon?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-01-10
    Posts
    221
    Points
    6,310
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,310, Level: 23
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 240
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    Secondly, the Dinaric Alps constitute a much broader area from Albania to Slovenia. The haplogroup with the highest frequency is I2a2. E1b1b is regulated to Albania.
    I am not surprised that E1b1b is regulated to Albania. During slavic invasion the illyrians after unsuccsesful fighting were located to today Albania, where still are present memories of Jutbina and Klladusha in albanian songs. The majority of North albanians trace their origin in the North Dinaric Alps.
    Please show evidence that the E1b1b has the cephalic index of 88 and I2a2 of 86.
    From C.C The races of Europe:
    The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84).
    And for Albania:
    The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastër and its neighborhood.
    Their cephalic index mean, 90.8, is by far the highest recorded in Europe.

  23. #23
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,583
    Points
    342,321
    Level
    100
    Points: 342,321, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 81.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Cool...
    I ask you what race were these R1b during their invasion in the Cameroon?
    No ancient remains had been DNA tested this part of Africa yet, so no one knows what they looked like back then. The age of the African R1b-V88 is estimated between 15,000 and 10,000 years old based on Y-DNA mutation rate alone.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    20-05-09
    Posts
    217
    Points
    3,668
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,668, Level: 17
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 182
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Hi Joro, look at this map.
    http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20090604081328
    North of Carpathian Mountains there are two tribes : W.Chrobatians and R.Chrobations (Ch=H). I checked few sources and it means Horvats. In English it translates as White Croats and Red Croats. Croats arrived in Dinaric Alps around 600 BC with Slavic Expansion. Where did they come from? If one can trust this map and some historians, it might show the remnants of Croatians tribes that didn't move south. I read in polish text that White Croats stopped North the Red Croats South in Dinaric Mountains. Now when you look at the map where Red Chrobatians are. They are located exactly between Moldova in south, and Belarus in north. Now the puzzle of heavy I2a in Moldova, South Croatia and Belarus makes sense.
    White Chrobatians come from region also called Little Poland and heavy in R1a.
    Not sure myself how much water it holds, but it makes some sense. What do you think? It would explain the colours on your flag though.

    Recently I've read few research papers, in polish though futile to post here then. The thing is that more and more historians come to conclusion that first millennium (probably much before) Slavs in central Europe where already a mixture of R1a and I2a, and not pure R1a.
    that's sympathic but i don't believe slavs brought I2a,maybe 1-2% but not more.the purest slavic areas in croatia have big R1a and their I2a is not more common than in north Italy.enough said.
    25% for Belarus is too much,it simply makes no logic.there should be a new testing for thata rea definitively,and i'm sure it wouldn't show more than 15%.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    20-05-09
    Posts
    217
    Points
    3,668
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,668, Level: 17
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 182
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Croatia



    I've found only this for Belarus: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/22/10/1964
    And It shows 15% of I2a,while Bulgarians have no I2a according to that research.Although there are only 24 samples for Bulgarians,but to find none I2a at all is indicative.There should be new,enough-sampled,complete study,taking in account the changes in haplogroup I classification.For example,we first had the 'Eu7' and 'Eu8' containing the haplogroup I,and according to that Croats and Bosniaks carried the same dominant gene as Scandinavians,and the Sardinians were Eu8.While now Scandinavian and western-Balkan I are clearly divided,and western-Balkan I is more related to that of Sardinia and SW Europe than to Scandinavian I1.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. roswell and a scandinavian race
    By shelly in forum Other Serious Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 18-12-11, 18:44
  2. Is there such thing as an Arab race ?
    By Maciamo in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 19-09-11, 02:20
  3. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 30-06-06, 06:40

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •