if spanish and portugese are heavily celtic why are some dark?

[maltesekid]

why do the penelope cruz and antonio banderas type spaniards exist? are they still celtic? or is there another reason? i doubt penelope cruz or antonio banderas woud fit in dublin or glasgow scotland ! i mean irish are known for their blue eyes untannable skin and dark or red hair i agree on north and western parts of iberia having the celtic and basque connection but not all spaniards are celtic or basque people! people forget southern spain but madrid southwards people start looking like penelope cruz and antonio banderas and i dont think they look very "celtic" or "irish" ! im not saying they look moroccan or arabian or gypsy either but they certainly dont look northwest european i know tons of irish and welsh some have dark hair but none look like penelope cruz or antonio banderas so this celtic spanish thing is in error

[Wilhelm]

You seem to forget that spaniards are not just Celtic, but CELTIBERIAN with also roman influence. And not all iberians were the same, there were different tribes of Iberians.
That is , the substartum is a mix of Iberian and Celtic, whereas the British isles, (and Ireland) are a mix of celtic with Germanic and Viking. The blue eyes and blond hair in the Birtish Isles comes mostly from heavy Germanic (anglo-saxon) and Viking(danish) blood.
Spain is mostly a mediterranean and atlanto-mediterrenean country.
Penelopez Cruz and Antonio Banderas are typically mediterrenean from a mediterrenean counry...there is nothing strange here..they look Iberian
In Wales there are plenty of types like Penelope Cruz, dark-haired mediterranean, for example, Catherine Zeta Jones.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

why do the penelope cruz and antonio banderas type spaniards exist? are they still celtic? or is there another reason? i doubt penelope cruz or antonio banderas woud fit in dublin or glasgow scotland ! i mean irish are known for their blue eyes untannable skin and dark or red hair i agree on north and western parts of iberia having the celtic and basque connection but not all spaniards are celtic or basque people! people forget southern spain but madrid southwards people start looking like penelope cruz and antonio banderas and i dont think they look very "celtic" or "irish" ! im not saying they look moroccan or arabian or gypsy either but they certainly dont look northwest european i know tons of irish and welsh some have dark hair but none look like penelope cruz or antonio banderas so this celtic spanish thing is in error

I think you need to do some serious research on Spain and Portugal...

The Iberian genetic base is heavily Celtic. In fact, one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, The Oxford University Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution, codifies the Western European genetic substratum as BASQUE / NORTHERN IBERIAN (Proto-Celtic), of which the Spanish, Portuguese, Irish, Cornish, Scottish and Welsh total more than 70% each and the Bretons and English about 60%. Iberia is nearly 3/4 Celtic, with the remainder being mainly Sub-Mediterranean (meaning with some Atlantic influences) and Mainstream Mediterranean. The majority of Iberians, particularly in the west, are heavily Paleo-Atlantid, Nordid Atlantid or Altlanto-Mediterranean. In brief, Iberians are predominantly Atlantic Celtic people.

[Marianne]

...In Wales there are plenty of types like Penelope Cruz, dark-haired mediterranean, for example, Catherine Zeta Jones.

Another example is George Clooney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Clooney
He has German and Irish origins but he looks darker than most Mediterraneans.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Another example is George Clooney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Clooney
He has German and Irish origins but he looks darker than most Mediterraneans.

Clooney is a perfect example of a Paleo-Atlantid. You find such types in many parts of the British Isles, Iberia and Western France. I don't think that Clooney is all that dark, actually. He certainly does not fit the Southeastern Mediterranean mold, in my opinion.

[Wilhelm]

I don't find Cruz to be particularly 'dark'

[Marianne]

Well if he wasn't famous and I saw him next to me at the metro I would consider him Greek with a slightly darker complexion than average. Also his bone structure isn't different than this of the men I see here every day.
I don't know if it is the light in the pictures and movies that make him look darker, but I find him a bit darker than the average Greek.
Of course I never met him in real life to be able to tell for sure.

He doesn't look Southeastern Mediterranean, like Egyptians, Palestinians etc, but he resembles the average North-Central Mediterraneans like Italians and Greeks. If I didn't know who he was and I had to guess I would say Sicilian.

[Maciamo]

What make any of you think that there weren't many dark haired Celts in the first place ?

[maltesekid]

yeah but dark haired celts arent iberian mediterraneans or eastern mediterraneans either they are paleo atlantid or something thats differnt from the iberian mediterranean imo! iberian mediterraneans are shorter darker and darker eyed

[Cambrius (The Red)]

yeah but dark haired celts arent iberian mediterraneans or eastern mediterraneans either they are paleo atlantid or something thats differnt from the iberian mediterranean imo! iberian mediterraneans are shorter darker and darker eyed

So, what do you think an "Iberian Mediterranean" is supposed to look like?

Penelope Cruz may or may not be typical of a Western Mediterranean person. A majority of Spanish and Portuguese are more Paleo-Atlantid (P-A) and Nordid-Atlantid (N-A), than Mediterranean. You find a good number of P-A and N-A types in the U.K. and Ireland as well.

BTW, Western Mediterraneans and Atlanto-Mediterraneans have somewhat different phenotypes than Eastern Mediterraneans. There are some similarities but they are generally NOT THE SAME.

[Marianne]

I don't find Cruz to be particularly 'dark'

Me neither. George Clooney is way darker.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Universally, men are usually darker than women. Testosterone?

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What make any of you think that there weren't many dark haired Celts in the first place ?

In fact, a large majority of "original" Celts may have had dark features.

[Wilhelm]

yeah but dark haired celts arent iberian mediterraneans or eastern mediterraneans either they are paleo atlantid or something thats differnt from the iberian mediterranean imo! iberian mediterraneans are shorter darker and darker eyed

Why shorter ? They are not shorter, The average height of Spain is the same as in other european countries.

[Wilhelm]

What make any of you think that there weren't many dark haired Celts in the first place ?

Stephen Oppenheimer believes that Celts were a mediterranean people...
It's not so strange.
People think that because the English, Welsh, Irish, are highly blonde and fair, they automatically think that Celts were blonde and fair. And that's because of the Germanics (Anglo-Saxons) and Vkings (Danish and Normans) invasions, , not because of Celts...(mostly)

[Maciamo]

Stephen Oppenheimer believes that Celts were a mediterranean people...
It's not so strange.
People think that because the English, Welsh, Irish, are highly blonde and fair, they automatically think that Celts were blonde and fair. And that's because of the Germanics (Anglo-Saxons) and Vkings (Danish and Normans) invasions, , not because of Celts...(mostly)

The Celts might have been predominantly R1b, but that doesn't mean much. They were originally indo-European who mixed with people of the Danube valley (native Europeans + Near-Eastern immigrants) before becoming the Celts in Central and Western Europe. So they were not "pure" Indo-Europeans. Yamna people and the first Yamna migrants to Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia and Hungary all had Proto-Europoid skulls (i.e. with mixed Europoid and Mongoloid features). Classical Celts as depicted by the Greeks and Romans did not look like that at all. Maternal lineages of the Celts were surely overwhelmingly non-IE. One good proof is that mt-haplogroup U3, common around the Black Sea where IE people originated, is very rare in Central and Western Europe, especially west of Italy and Germany.

[Wilhelm]

The Celts might have been predominantly R1b, but that doesn't mean much. They were originally indo-European who mixed with people of the Danube valley (native Europeans + Near-Eastern immigrants) before becoming the Celts in Central and Western Europe. So they were not "pure" Indo-Europeans. Yamna people and the first Yamna migrants to Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia and Hungary all had Proto-Europoid skulls (i.e. with mixed Europoid and Mongoloid features). Classical Celts as depicted by the Greeks and Romans did not look like that at all.

Yes, and being the Celts from Southern France and central Europe, it is more
probable that they were dark-haired, chestnut,..like today's southern france, Switzerland, and Southern Austria...

[Wilhelm]

yeah but dark haired celts arent iberian mediterraneans or eastern mediterraneans either they are paleo atlantid or something thats differnt from the iberian mediterranean imo! iberian mediterraneans are shorter darker and darker eyed

And what the hell are the iberian mediterraneans supposed to be ??
Celts are part of the iberian mediterranean make-up.
They are not shorter nor darker...Please, talk with some foundation..

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I generally shy away from presenting photos of ethnic groups to show phenotypes. However, this forum now appears to be filled with people who are very misinformed about what Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) actually look like. Therefore, I am offering random group and individual shots of Spaniards and Portuguese. I have deliberately chosen mainly military and national sports team photos because members of such organizations are not there because of aspects of appearance, unlike cinema and news media celebrities and the like. In addition, I have avoided any shots that include NON NATIVE Iberians, such as Arabs, mestizos, Asians, etc. There are some clueless people who may see them as indigenous Iberians, for whatever strange reason.

The first two strips (two posts) are pictures of Portuguese people and the second two, in different posts, represent Spaniards.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

More images of Portuguese:

[Wilhelm]

SPANIARDS :
























PORTUGUESE :

[^ lynx ^]

OK. If you want us to pretend that there aren't Tom Jones or Sean Connery archetypes in the British Isles... I'll pretend it.

[Wilhelm]

Mediterranean types are found in all Europe :
Germany, England, Wales, Scotland, Belgium, Switzerland, etc, etc..
About Dark hair : It is the most common in all europeans. Germany or Netherlands are majority not-blonde, contrary to the popular belief.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Now, all those here who are clueless about what Iberians REALLY look like, please don't be shocked or disturbed by the images posted above. No need to worry, you have not been abducted by aliens or lost your sanity.

[^ lynx ^]

Repost. Sorry.