if spanish and portugese are heavily celtic why are some dark?

^ lynx ^ · 07-01-10, 22:27

iberian mediterraneans are shorter darker and darker eyed

Spain's average height is basically the same as France, check out some sources before making rubbish assumptions. After this and the fact that you posted a racial map from one of Hitler's gurus (Madison Grant) I don't know if you're just misinformed or being a *****.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 07-01-10, 22:33

Madison Grant...

He's in the same league as the deranged, racist "physical anthropologist", Carlton Coon. The latter is such a disgrace that his bio has been removed from certain encyclopedias. Coon, like Grant, has been reduced to a footnote in the dust-bin of history. Did I just hear someone flushing the toilet?

**Wilhelm** · 07-01-10, 23:16

**LeBrok** · 08-01-10, 01:14

It depends who measures, I guess

Country and average male height:

Argentina 174.46 cm (5 ft 8.6 in)
Australia 178.4 cm (5' 10.2")
Bahrain 165.1 cm (5' 5")
Belgium 176.6 cm (5' 9.5")
Brazil 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
Cameroon 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
Canada 174 cm (5' 8.5")
China (PRC) 164.8 cm (5' 4.9")
China 169.4 cm (5' 6.7")
Colombia 170.64 cm (5' 7.2")
Côte d'Ivoire 170.1 cm (5' 7")
Czech Republic 180.3 cm (5' 11")
Denmark 180.6 cm (5' 11.1")
Dinaric Alps 185.6 cm (6' 1.0")
Estonia 179.1 cm (5' 10.5")
Finland 178.2 cm (5' 10")
France 174.1 cm (5' 8.5")
Ghana 169.46 cm (5' 6.7")
Gambia 168.0 cm (5' 6.1")
Germany 178.1 cm (5' 10")
Guatemala (Maya people) 157.5 cm (5' 2")
Hong Kong 170 cm (5' 7")
Hungary, Debrecen 179.14 cm (5' 10.4")
Iceland 181.7 cm (5' 11.5")
India 165.3 cm (5' 5")
Indonesia 158.0 cm (5' 2.2")
Indonesia, East Bali 162.4 cm (5' 3.9")
Iran 174.24 cm (5' 8.6")
Iraq 165.4 cm (5' 5.1")
Israel 175.6 cm (5' 9.2")
Italy - Middle & North 176.9 cm (5' 9.7")
Italy - South 174.2 cm (5' 8.0")
Japan 171.2 cm (5' 7.4")
Korea, South 175.26 cm (5' 9")
Lithuania 176.3 cm (5' 9.4")
Malaysia 164.7 cm (5' 4.8")
Malta 169 cm (5' 6.5")
Malawi 166 cm (5' 5.3")
Mali 171.3 cm (5' 7.4")
Mexico, State of Morelos 167 cm (5' 5.7")
Netherlands 184.8 cm (6' 0.8")
New Zealand 177.0 cm (5' 9.7")
Nigeria 163.8 cm (5' 4.5")
Norway 179.9 cm (5' 10.8")
Philippines 163.5 cm (5' 4.4")
Portugal 172.8 cm (5' 8")
Singapore 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
South Africa 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
Spain 170 cm (5' 7")
Sweden 180 cm (5' 10.9")
Switzerland 175.5 cm (5' 9")
Taiwan 171.45 cm (5' 7.5")
Thailand 167.5 cm (5' 5.9")
Turkey 173.74 cm (5' 8.4")
United Kingdom 176.8 cm (5' 9.6")
U.S. 178.2 cm (5' 10.2")
Vietnam 167 cm

^ lynx ^ · 08-01-10, 01:24

It doesn't depend on who measures, but on the DATE of measure. And your source must be old.

In 2007, Spain's average height in males was 1,76 and 1,64 in females:

http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia..._20070716.html

I haven't found a source for 2009.

^ lynx ^ · 08-01-10, 01:36

http://www.econ.upf.edu/docs/papers/downloads/1002.pdf

This study seems more recent and detailed.

**Wilhelm** · 08-01-10, 01:42

Originally Posted by lebrok

it depends who measures, i guess

country and average male height:

Argentina 174.46 cm (5 ft 8.6 in)
australia 178.4 cm (5' 10.2")
bahrain 165.1 cm (5' 5")
belgium 176.6 cm (5' 9.5")
brazil 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
cameroon 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
canada 174 cm (5' 8.5")
china (prc) 164.8 cm (5' 4.9")
china 169.4 cm (5' 6.7")
colombia 170.64 cm (5' 7.2")
côte d'ivoire 170.1 cm (5' 7")
czech republic 180.3 cm (5' 11")
denmark 180.6 cm (5' 11.1")
dinaric alps 185.6 cm (6' 1.0")
estonia 179.1 cm (5' 10.5")
finland 178.2 cm (5' 10")
france 174.1 cm (5' 8.5")
ghana 169.46 cm (5' 6.7")
gambia 168.0 cm (5' 6.1")
germany 178.1 cm (5' 10")
guatemala (maya people) 157.5 cm (5' 2")
hong kong 170 cm (5' 7")
hungary, debrecen 179.14 cm (5' 10.4")
iceland 181.7 cm (5' 11.5")
india 165.3 cm (5' 5")
indonesia 158.0 cm (5' 2.2")
indonesia, east bali 162.4 cm (5' 3.9")
iran 174.24 cm (5' 8.6")
iraq 165.4 cm (5' 5.1")
israel 175.6 cm (5' 9.2")
italy - middle & north 176.9 cm (5' 9.7")
italy - south 174.2 cm (5' 8.0")
japan 171.2 cm (5' 7.4")
korea, south 175.26 cm (5' 9")
lithuania 176.3 cm (5' 9.4")
malaysia 164.7 cm (5' 4.8")
malta 169 cm (5' 6.5")
malawi 166 cm (5' 5.3")
mali 171.3 cm (5' 7.4")
mexico, state of morelos 167 cm (5' 5.7")
netherlands 184.8 cm (6' 0.8")
new zealand 177.0 cm (5' 9.7")
nigeria 163.8 cm (5' 4.5")
norway 179.9 cm (5' 10.8")
philippines 163.5 cm (5' 4.4")
portugal 172.8 cm (5' 8")
singapore 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
south africa 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
spain 170 cm (5' 7")
sweden 180 cm (5' 10.9")
switzerland 175.5 cm (5' 9")
taiwan 171.45 cm (5' 7.5")
thailand 167.5 cm (5' 5.9")
turkey 173.74 cm (5' 8.4")
united kingdom 176.8 cm (5' 9.6")
u.s. 178.2 cm (5' 10.2")
vietnam 167 cm

source ....??

**Marianne** · 08-01-10, 02:42

Originally Posted by ^ lynx ^

http://www.econ.upf.edu/docs/papers/downloads/1002.pdf

This study seems more recent and detailed.

This study is very interesting

**LeBrok** · 08-01-10, 02:55

No idea Wilhelm, they didn't say what year.
Good article Lynx, it makes sense.
I can't believe it's so hard to find recent statistics with cross population and age height or weight measurements. I think one would need to get to government stats for every country (in native language) sample them and pile up in one database.
I wounder if there is still grove increase since 80s till now, or it has stopped in Europe? If it stopped then it would mean that we have enough food in all countries to accommodate the full potential grove. If we still growing it could mean that we consume too much grove hormone in foods.
I remember a friend from high school in Poland. His parents were about 155cm mother and 165 father, short people by any standards. At age of 19 my friend was 190cm still growing and not much facial hair. I know this wasn't a disease, his alive now and healthy,..and stopped growing soon after. Well, his parents owned a chicken farm. Real mass production with grove hormone use. It was a long recession time in Poland and food was scares. Because they had this farm, easy food for them to get, my friend was eating chicken every second day. There wasn't much of regulation of hormone use back then.............then again, maybe one of his grandfathers was really tall. :)

**Wilhelm** · 08-01-10, 03:24

Originally Posted by LeBrok

No idea Wilhelm, they didn't say what year.
Good article Lynx, it makes sense.
I can't believe it's so hard to find recent statistics with cross population and age height or weight measurements. I think one would need to get to government stats for every country (in native language) sample them and pile up in one database.
I wounder if there is still grove increase since 80s till now, or it has stopped in Europe? If it stopped then it would mean that we have enough food in all countries to accommodate the full potential grove. If we still growing it could mean that we consume too much grove hormone in foods.
I remember a friend from high school in Poland. His parents were about 155cm mother and 165 father, short people by any standards. At age of 19 my friend was 190cm still growing and not much facial hair. I know this wasn't a disease, his alive now and healthy,..and stopped growing soon after. Well, his parents owned a chicken farm. Real mass production with grove hormone use. It was a long recession time in Poland and food was scares. Because they had this farm, easy food for them to get, my friend was eating chicken every second day. There wasn't much of regulation of hormone use back then.............then again, maybe one of his grandfathers was really tall. :)

WHat is the source of your list ?

**Wilhelm** · 08-01-10, 03:30

From the Study of Lynx , Spain taller than Austria, Finland, Ireland

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 04:25

Originally Posted by LeBrok

It depends who measures, I guess
Country and average male height:
Argentina 174.46 cm (5 ft 8.6 in)
Australia 178.4 cm (5' 10.2")
Bahrain 165.1 cm (5' 5")
Belgium 176.6 cm (5' 9.5")
Brazil 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
Cameroon 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
Canada 174 cm (5' 8.5")
China (PRC) 164.8 cm (5' 4.9")
China 169.4 cm (5' 6.7")
Colombia 170.64 cm (5' 7.2")
Côte d'Ivoire 170.1 cm (5' 7")
Czech Republic 180.3 cm (5' 11")
Denmark 180.6 cm (5' 11.1")
Dinaric Alps 185.6 cm (6' 1.0")
Estonia 179.1 cm (5' 10.5")
Finland 178.2 cm (5' 10")
France 174.1 cm (5' 8.5")
Ghana 169.46 cm (5' 6.7")
Gambia 168.0 cm (5' 6.1")
Germany 178.1 cm (5' 10")
Guatemala (Maya people) 157.5 cm (5' 2")
Hong Kong 170 cm (5' 7")
Hungary, Debrecen 179.14 cm (5' 10.4")
Iceland 181.7 cm (5' 11.5")
India 165.3 cm (5' 5")
Indonesia 158.0 cm (5' 2.2")
Indonesia, East Bali 162.4 cm (5' 3.9")
Iran 174.24 cm (5' 8.6")
Iraq 165.4 cm (5' 5.1")
Israel 175.6 cm (5' 9.2")
Italy - Middle & North 176.9 cm (5' 9.7")
Italy - South 174.2 cm (5' 8.0")
Japan 171.2 cm (5' 7.4")
Korea, South 175.26 cm (5' 9")
Lithuania 176.3 cm (5' 9.4")
Malaysia 164.7 cm (5' 4.8")
Malta 169 cm (5' 6.5")
Malawi 166 cm (5' 5.3")
Mali 171.3 cm (5' 7.4")
Mexico, State of Morelos 167 cm (5' 5.7")
Netherlands 184.8 cm (6' 0.8")
New Zealand 177.0 cm (5' 9.7")
Nigeria 163.8 cm (5' 4.5")
Norway 179.9 cm (5' 10.8")
Philippines 163.5 cm (5' 4.4")
Portugal 172.8 cm (5' 8")
Singapore 170.6 cm (5' 7.2")
South Africa 169.0 cm (5' 6.5")
Spain 170 cm (5' 7")
Sweden 180 cm (5' 10.9")
Switzerland 175.5 cm (5' 9")
Taiwan 171.45 cm (5' 7.5")
Thailand 167.5 cm (5' 5.9")
Turkey 173.74 cm (5' 8.4")
United Kingdom 176.8 cm (5' 9.6")
U.S. 178.2 cm (5' 10.2")
Vietnam 167 cm

This table appears flawed.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 04:26

Height is determined as much by diet and health care as genetics.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 04:35

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

From the Study of Lynx , Spain taller than Austria, Finland, Ireland

Even this good study relies on "reported height". Bad start... The figures don't go beyond 1980!

Anyway, there is no midget population in Europe. However, I would say that, based on the most recent information I've run across, the Dutch are he tallest.

**Wilhelm** · 08-01-10, 04:38

Yes, the point was to prove wrong to Maltesekid that Iberians are shorter, darker, blah, blah, blah...You see Spain has an average height in Europe

**Trollhattan** · 08-01-10, 09:00

Originally Posted by maltesekid

why do the penelope cruz and antonio banderas type spaniards exist ? are they still celtic ?

Iberia peninsula has 17%-20% Middle-Eastern ( ancient Phoenicians,Berbers/Moors,Semitic-Jews,etc ) genetic component,google research has a good batch of DNA reports on the subject.

I suspect the " Celtic " connection is desired out of inferiority complex and some Spaniards ( Portuguese don't care about it ) & Americas mestizo netizens seek closer tie to " first world " NW Europeans.

**LeBrok** · 08-01-10, 09:45

In year 1978 Spanish shrank 4 centimeters. hmmm
Besides that, now I noticed that year to year data fluctuate quite a bit, up and down. Was sampling pool small? I mean small cohord. :)
Just observations.

**maltesekid** · 08-01-10, 13:51

well the lighter iberians dont really look that mediterranean imo they look atlantid are taller and lighter skinned and not proper western mediterranean. when i think mediterranean spanish people i think penelope cruz monica cruz rafael nadal antonio banderas thats iberian mediterranean not the north-atlantid kind that people here seem to be posting for some weird reason that type looks more "northern"

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 14:38

Originally Posted by Trollhattan

Iberia peninsula has 17%-20% Middle-Eastern ( ancient Phoenicians,Berbers/Moors,Semitic-Jews,etc ) genetic component,google research has a good batch of DNA reports on the subject.
I suspect the " Celtic " connection is desired out of inferiority complex and some Spaniards ( Portuguese don't care about it ) & Americas mestizo netizens seek closer tie to " first world " NW Europeans.

Native origin Berbers are not Middle Eastern / Semitic. The E-(M-81) found in Iberia (the majority of Near Eastern markers in the Iberian Peninsula) is NW African Berber and not Semitic. It comes from the pre-Neolithic Eurasian (White) Berbers. The great percentage of Berbers today are mixed. M-81 has been detected even in Scandinavia. Please, let's not confuse the issue.

Spain has less Near Eastern DNA than Austria or France and Portugal considerably less than Italy and a any number of other European countries. The highest levels of "Middle Eastern" DNA recorded in Europe are found in the Balkans and Italy.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 14:50

Originally Posted by maltesekid

well the lighter iberians dont really look that mediterranean imo they look atlantid are taller and lighter skinned and not proper western mediterranean. when i think mediterranean spanish people i think penelope cruz monica cruz rafael nadal antonio banderas thats iberian mediterranean not the north-atlantid kind that people here seem to be posting for some weird reason that type looks more "northern"

READ the posts. The photos are RANDOM and many are of military or sports teams. Such people are not in these organizations because of appearance (e.g., the media industry). The majority of Iberians do not have typical "Mediterranean" characteristics. Most are not Nordic looking, of course, but a large number are Paleo-Atlantid, Nordid Atlantid or Altlanto-Mediterranean. Iberians are primarily Atlantic peoples. It shouldn't take doctoral degrees in physical anthropology and population genetics to figure that out, should it?...

Get rid of the ridiculous stereotypes you have about Iberians. Do some traveling and see for yourself.

^ lynx ^ · 08-01-10, 16:16

Cambria Red, don't be stupid. Ignore the Sirious' clones, please.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 16:57

Originally Posted by ^ lynx ^

Cambria Red, don't be stupid. Ignore the Sirious' clones, please.

Yes, must do...

**Wilhelm** · 08-01-10, 17:17

Originally Posted by Trollhattan

Iberia peninsula has 17%-20% Middle-Eastern ( ancient Phoenicians,Berbers/Moors,Semitic-Jews,etc ) genetic component,google research has a good batch of DNA reports on the subject.

I suspect the " Celtic " connection is desired out of inferiority complex and some Spaniards ( Portuguese don't care about it ) & Americas mestizo netizens seek closer tie to " first world " NW Europeans.

LOL. Where did you get that ??
First of all, the berbers/moors are not middle-eastern, they are north-african. Second, the phoencians, jews, berbers, etc were always a minority who didn't leave any impact on the admixutre.Thirdly :
The only haplogroups considered "levant" or middle-eastern are the J, E and T. (Even though, most of the J and E in Europe is of roman, greek, or neolithic origin)
Well, between all of this haplogroups (J, E, T) Spain has below-average compared to other european countries :
J1 + E + T :
(Spain has about the same as Belgium) :

Austria 22%
Belgium 10%
Bulgaria 30%
Czech Rep. 13%
France 15%
Hungary 17.5%
Netherlands 11.5%
Serbia 42%
Romania 32%
Switzerland 15.5%
Ukraine 20%
Spain 12%

^ lynx ^ · 08-01-10, 17:20

Wilhelm, seriously, don't feed the *****. If he's hungry let him eat some beans.

maltesekid = trollhattan = sirious2b, the poor mexican with inferiority complex. And he's probably Luis77 also.

Just for those who hadn't notice it.

**Cambrius (The Red)** · 08-01-10, 17:25

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

LOL. Where did you get that ??
First of all, the berbers/moors are not middle-eastern, they are north-african. Second, the phoencians, jews, berbers, etc were always a minority who didn't leave any impact on the admixutre.Thirdly :
The only haplogroups considered "levant" or middle-eastern are the J, E and T. (Even though, most of the J and E in Europe is of roman, greek, or neolithic origin)
Well, between all of this haplogroups (J, E, T) Spain has below-average compared to other european countries :
J1 + E + T :
(Spain has about the same as Belgium) :

Austria 22%
Belgium 10%
Bulgaria 30%
Czech Rep. 13%
France 15%
Hungary 17.5%
Netherlands 11.5%
Serbia 42%
Romania 32%
Switzerland 15.5%
Ukraine 20%
Spain 12%

For the record, in Portugal J1 + E & T = 17.5%. Portugal is 1/5 of Iberia, so the total for Iberia is between 13-14%. "Mid-East" mt-DNA may actually be even lower in Iberia.

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