Basque

[Neander]

Let's talk about Basque.

Here is a link which can be ground of this thread:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista.../basques.shtml

So, was Rh- brought by R1b peoples here, or it was native to Europe?
Why basque have least B blood group in Europe?
Why Basque speak non-IE language?
Is it language which they brought from Asia?
What tells us Basque mythology about ancient times?
Were the R1b Alpine race, which in turn was a mix of their original race with mongolian broadheaded of Haplogroup N in NW Asia?

And...

Why there are some related word of Basque and Ainu people??

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/ainu.htm

Does that mean that Ainu and Tibetans, which have the comon haplogroup D, had the same language "Proto-Ainu", and as we know R1b oldest is foun in Tajikistan near the Tibet, se they could borrow words from each other??

[Maciamo]

Let's talk about Basque.

Here is a link which can be ground of this thread:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista.../basques.shtml

So, was Rh- brought by R1b peoples here, or it was native to Europe?

Rhesus- is almost not found in non-European populations, so it must be native to Europe.

However, I found this dubious map that claims that Rh- is more common in Africa, India and the Middle-East than in Europe. It also shows Xinjiang as having a high incidence. But I couldn't find any serious website corroborating this data.

Why there are some related word of Basque and Ainu people??

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/ainu.htm

Does that mean that Ainu and Tibetans, which have the comon haplogroup D, had the same language "Proto-Ainu", and as we know R1b oldest is foun in Tajikistan near the Tibet, se they could borrow words from each other??

I don't know any Basque or Ainu so I cannot say if this site is trustworthy or not, but the similarities listed are breathtaking. I don't see how these two ethnicities, at the opposite end of the Eurasian continent, could possibly be related.

Note that Tibetan and Ainu are not even in the same linguistic family, despite the common hg D (well, the Ainu/Jomon Japanese are D2, while the Tibetans are D3a, and the two subclades probably split over 30,000 years ago, so I wouldn't expect any linguistic similarity).

The only far-fetched connection I could think of is that some Ainu (but few) belong to mt-haplogroup G and Y, which are found from Eastern to Western Siberia (around the Ural). The Indo-European's homeland extended until th Ural, so it is possible (but very far-fetched and unlikely) that some Uralic tribes moved to Europe with them. But the Basque have no mtDNA G or Y or any other sign of Siberian DNA. Then why would an IE-affiliated tribe not speak an IE language, when everybody else adopted IE languages from Europe to India ? So it must be just a very dumbfounding linguistic coincidence.

[maltesekid]

I heard some people said basque is related to some of the caucasus languages but other people say it was related to ancient iberian im not sure!

[Neander]

Then why would an IE-affiliated tribe not speak an IE language, when everybody else adopted IE languages from Europe to India ? So it must be just a very dumbfounding linguistic coincidence.

No I thought they just borrowed some words.

However, what is your theory about Basque language?

Basque was spoken in a wider territory in ancient times, it was Aquitan language, which was spoken in whole south France. So it mus have been a primary language for many R1b tribes.

But who spreaded celtic?

Who spread Iberian, which acordong to scientists is not related to basque?

Is the Basque original language of R1b, or native language of captived wives?

[Neander]

If you have time, make an experiment.

Calculate, if 50% Rh+ male&female will mix with 50% Rh- male&female, how much % Rh- will be after 2 or 3 generations.

And specially look, which male lineage will decrease in number.

I made it, and I found that the population with Rh+ will decrease in number of its Y-chromosomes, and population with Rh- will decrease in the number of its Female lineage.

Also the percentage of Rh+ will decrease throw the time.

This show, that Basque might have been, original Rh- people, and after mixing with european natives, their male lineage has increased to 80% and more, but their female lineage has decreased in favour of european mtdna. And Rh+ has decreased through the time but, it has the highest peak at the Basque people who must be the original ethnicity of R1b haplogroup.

[Segia]

No I thought they just borrowed some words.

However, what is your theory about Basque language?

Basque was spoken in a wider territory in ancient times, it was Aquitan language, which was spoken in whole south France. So it mus have been a primary language for many R1b tribes.

But who spreaded celtic?

Who spread Iberian, which acordong to scientists is not related to basque?

Is the Basque original language of R1b, or native language of captived wives?

Iberian is someway related to basque. The problem is that we have no record of basque-aquitanian language 2000 y.a, with the exception of some anthroponyms, toponyms and theonyms, very concentrated in southwestern France (in Spain the density is lower and located mainly in northern Navarre and NW Aragon)

Maybe ancient aquitanian and iberian weren't brothers, but they were at least cousins (in Iberia and S France there is a geographic coincidence between historical iberians-vasco-aquitanians and Urnfields culture)

Ethnic and linguistic genesis of human populations is far more complicated that linking single haplogroups to languages, cultures and middle-earth fashioned ecuestrian invasions.

A genetic mutation doesn't implies a linguistic change.

[Neander]

There are some similar words of Basque with other languages f.ex "Mother" in Basque is "ama" the same as in albanian "ama", 'woman" in baque is "andere" which is counterpart of greek "ander" (man), then number two in basque is "biru" which is similar to latin "bini", 'father' in basque is 'aita' with some similarity with albanian 'ati' with the same meaning.

And, it is important, the vigesimal system of numbering in Europe is found only in three languages: Basque, Albanian and French.

[^ lynx ^]

There's a popular basque song entitled "Txoria txori" (The Bird) by Mikel Laboa. A basque singer called Gontzal Mendibil made a japanese version of it entitled "Tori yo tori" (you can find it on internet).

I think there's indeed a link between basque a some asiatic languanges but there's also some words similar to the guanche language (guanche's were the natives of the Canary Islands).

Guanche -Basque -English

ache- etxe - house
aho- aho - mouth
aga - aka - dead
ana - ana - sister
hama - ura - water
urin - urin - meat

[Segia]

There are some similar words of Basque with other languages f.ex "Mother" in Basque is "ama" the same as in albanian "ama", 'woman" in baque is "andere" which is counterpart of greek "ander" (man), then number two in basque is "biru" which is similar to latin "bini", 'father' in basque is 'aita' with some similarity with albanian 'ati' with the same meaning.

And, it is important, the vigesimal system of numbering in Europe is found only in three languages: Basque, Albanian and French.

We don't know if aita and ama ar patronimical basque or loanwords, but the structure mama/ama/ema/umma is widespread around the world; aita resembles celtic languages (without initial indoeuropean "p", substratum, adstratum, superstratum or distant realtionship?)

Ainder is also shared by gaelic with similar meaning as in basque (superstratum, adstratum, substratum or distant relationship??)

You have more words with the same problem: adarc, gaelic (horn), in basque adar. Mendi is mountain in basque, mons in latin, mynyyd in gaelic, bundo in gaulish, argi is light in basque, with the same radix you have different cognates in several IE languages (argentum -lat.-, argantom -celt-, harki -hitt-, arki -tocc-....all related to bright, light, silver...)

It's very complicated. No one knows the age of hg's and which was the language of its first carrier when took place. And no one knows how the IE (linguistic matter) could be developed. All is based on speculations, better o worse built, but I don't think that it should be a one-kind militaristic epysode. Languages spread/change/mix in several ways.

[Eireannach]

Ainder is also shared by gaelic with similar meaning as in basque (superstratum, adstratum, substratum or distant relationship??)

I've never heard of this word Ainder, and I speak Irish.

You have more words with the same problem: adarc, gaelic (horn), in basque adar. Mendi is mountain in basque, mons in latin, mynyyd in gaelic, bundo in gaulish, argi is light in basque, with the same radix you have different cognates in several IE languages (argentum -lat.-, argantom -celt-, harki -hitt-, arki -tocc-....all related to bright, light, silver...)

This isn't a Gaelic word at all. Its doesn't even look gaelic. It looks Welsh though, which is completely different from Gaelic.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I think it may well be Welsh.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What is interesting is that the first Celtic language, going by the rapidly accumulating evidence, was Tartessian (Southern-Portugal and SW Spain).

[Wilhelm]

Similiarities with celtic

Horn :
Irish Celt : Adarc
basque : Adar

Woman :
Irish Celt : Ainder
basque : Andere

Stone :
Irish Celt : Carrac
basque : Harri

[Wilhelm]

Similairities with Iberian :

Iberian - Basque - English

Mbe - ni - I

Salir - Zilar - Money/Silver

Biskar - Bizkar - Back

Biur - Bihur - Twisted

Bios - Bihotz - Heart

Ildun - Ilun - Dark

Beles - Beltz - Black

[K_Sacana_Blomqvist]

the fact is that the Basque language is the only survival from the time prior to IE arrival.
I looked up some linquistic papers that tried to link Basque to other lang. It's pure speculation. Nothing conclusive. So my guess is it's the same with same with ainou or any other language.
Etruscans left artifacts and names but no other records.
The haplogroups and the defined mutations that can link together different populations are completly inconclusive, in my opinion, bcuz these mutations occured 10.000 - 15.000 yrs ago. Hardly any reason to feel any kind of kinship? smile:
Conclusion: the Basques can enjoy the exclsive title of the most ancient Europeans

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, I think that it has been shown that the oldest European DNA is found in the Basque country. Iberians, in general, have the oldest DNA in Europe, it seems.

[Maciamo]

Yes, I think that it has been shown that the oldest European DNA is found in the Basque country. Iberians, in general, have the oldest DNA in Europe, it seems.

What do you mean by oldest DNA ? The one that had evolved the least over time ?

If you are referring to the age of Y-DNA, Basque R1b is the same age as other western European R1b.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What do you mean by oldest DNA ? The one that had evolved the least over time ?

If you are referring to the age of Y-DNA, Basque R1b is the same age as other western European R1b.

If, as many believe, the Basques were the first true "modern" settlers of Europe, they would have the oldest DNA of all European peoples, but ONLY Europeans. I'm not expert enough to comment effectively on DNA evolvement levels...

[Maciamo]

If, as many believe, the Basques were the first true "modern" settlers of Europe, they would have the oldest DNA of all European peoples, but ONLY Europeans. I'm not expert enough to comment effectively on DNA evolvement levels...

The Basques were by no means the first. ALL Europeans have inherited DNA from Paleolithic Europeans. Judging from Y-DNA hg I and mtDNA H1, H3, U5 and V, those who inherited the most DNA from Paleolithic Europeans are the Saami, Finns, Scandinavians, Bosnians, Croatians, then only the Basques (because it's only mtDNA).

[Segia]

Maciamo, why do you think R1b is so especially high in historical prerroman non-IE speaking regions such as Aquitania, Navarre and Gipuzkoa, Catalonia...?

[Wilhelm]

The Basques were by no means the first. ALL Europeans have inherited DNA from Paleolithic Europeans. Judging from Y-DNA hg I and mtDNA H1, H3, U5 and V, those who inherited the most DNA from Paleolithic Europeans are the Saami, Finns, Scandinavians, Bosnians, Croatians, then only the Basques (because it's only mtDNA).

Spaniards are one of the most Paleolithic and least Neolithic of all euroepans.

..the origins of the Iberian Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 5% recent NW African, 78% Upper Paleolithic and later local derivatives (group IX), and 10% Neolithic (H58, H71). No haplotype assumed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa was found in our Iberian sample. It should be noted that H58 and H71 are not the only haplotypes present in the Middle East and that the Neolithic wave of advance could have brought other lineages to Iberia and NW Africa.

Bosch et al. 2001