North Wales E3b

[Wilhelm]

Why is there such a high presence of E3b in Northern Wales ? It is because of Near Eastern farmers from Neolithic ?

[^ lynx ^]

Ummm North Wales was an important point in british slave trade during Industrial Revolution.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Ummm North Wales was an important point in british slave trade during Industrial Revolution.

I don't believe it has anything to do with the Atlantic Slave Trade. E3b, particularly M-81 (the Eurasian Berber subclade), has been found as far north as Scandinavia.

[Wilhelm]

Sub-Saharan africans do not belong to E3b. The E3b is near-eastern/Nort-African. I'ts presence in Europe is due to neolithic Near-Eastern farmers. But , I just wanted to know the reasons for its high frequency in that concrete zone in North Wales.

[^ lynx ^]

I don't believe it has anything to do with the Atlantic Slave Trade. E3b, particularly M-81 (the Eurasian Berber subclade), has been found as far north as Scandinavia.

I'm not suggesting that ALL the E3b found in North Wales is related with slavery trade but surely slavery had an impact. 2.1% of welsh population is black.

[Neander]

We don't know which subclade belong this, so if it is E-V13, they may be descendants of illyrian legionars.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I'm not suggesting that ALL the E3b found in North Wales is related with slavery trade but surely slavery had an impact. 2.1% of welsh population is black.

2.1% of the Welsh population is not black because of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Most of the blacks in Wales are a result of Afro-Caribbean and Sub-Saharan immigration. Apparently, there are some low levels of Sub-Saharan admixture in the Cardiff area, an active slave port during the 17th and 18th centuries. However, Sub-Saharan halogroup / subclade frequencies are trivial in the Welsh, country wide.

[rms2]

I believe that high E1b1b (old E3b) sample came from the town of Abergele. Since Abergele is an old Roman trading town, I suspect the Romans may have been the primary source of all that E1b1b.

It would be interesting to know to what subclade of E1b1b the men of Abergele belong and if they have haplotype matches in Italy or the Balkans.

[rms2]

I believe that high E1b1b (old E3b) sample came from the town of Abergele. Since Abergele is an old Roman trading town, I suspect the Romans may have been the primary source of all that E1b1b.

It would be interesting to know to what subclade of E1b1b the men of Abergele belong and if they have haplotype matches in Italy or the Balkans.

Well, it looks like I might actually be right, that is, if this Wikipedia article is trustworthy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abergele

It says the predominant subclade of E1b1b in Abergele is E-V13 (E1b1b1a2). E-V13 is found primarily in the Balkans, which was the source for many of the Roman legionaries who served in Britain.

Neander would also be right, too, since he mentioned this possibility (above) before I did.

Case closed?

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, people forget that the Romans had people from all over the empire in their legions, from the Eastern Mediterranean, North Africa, the Middle East, etc., as well as Rome / Italian Peninsula

[rms2]

Yes, people forget that the Romans had people from all over the empire in their legions, from the Eastern Mediterranean, North Africa, the Middle East, etc., as well as Rome / Italian Peninsula

I think in this case the E-V13 signpost points right back to the Balkans.

Like Neander said a few days ago, maybe these Welsh E-V13 descend from Illyrians in the service of Rome.

Kind of cool, if you ask me.

[Wilhelm]

How do you know it is E-V13 ?? It could be E-M78 which is the most common subclade of E1b1b in Italy

[rms2]

How do you know it is E-V13 ?? It could be E-M78 which is the most common subclade of E1b1b in Italy

I was going by what that Wikipedia article said. I mentioned that in my post, in which was the caveat "if this Wikipedia article is trustworthy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abergele

Here's what it says:


Recent genetic studies as part of the Genetic history of Europe[1] on the y-chromosomes of men in Abergele have revealed that there is a substantial percentage of E1b1b1a2DNA in Abergele. Membership in Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) was found to average at 38.97% in male y-chromosomes in Abergele. This genetic marker is found at its highest concentrations in the Balkans at up to approximately 40% in areas, but at much lower percentages in Northern Europe at less than 5%. The reason for the high levels of E1b1b in Abergele is most likely due to the heavy Roman legionary presence in Abergele as most of the Romans that came to Britain did not come from Italy, rather from other parts of the Roman Empire such as North Africa and eastern Europe. Above average levels of genetic marker E-V13 have been found in other towns in Britain that were known to have had a heavy Roman presence nearly 2000 years ago.

[Wilhelm]

OK, thanks !! case closed

[Gwyllgi]

Imported sheep.

It's a cultural thing up here.

[genetic code]

not enough reserach have been done on poulations of wales
not only north wales but also
southern wales e1b1b1b2 also exist in wales in the e3b project there are some e-m81
from wales a good explanation will be the spanish wing of the vettons which raised from western iberia very close portugal since m81 is neolithic or even earlier in iberia
will not be surprised if m81 arrived to wales by this unit
ps. to show you guys that i am not throwing things go to wikpedia or google and type: " list of roman auxiliry regiments" you can see the auxiliry units in germania superior, dacia ,germaania inferiour , and noricum {austria} many middle eastern units
since the roman were based mainly on archers from syria and cavalery from iberia and mooroco there was new site in kalefeld germany in saxony
genetic code

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I was going by what that Wikipedia article said. I mentioned that in my post, in which was the caveat "if this Wikipedia article is trustworthy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abergele
Here's what it says:
Recent genetic studies as part of the Genetic history of Europe[1] on the y-chromosomes of men in Abergele have revealed that there is a substantial percentage of E1b1b1a2DNA in Abergele. Membership in Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) was found to average at 38.97% in male y-chromosomes in Abergele. This genetic marker is found at its highest concentrations in the Balkans at up to approximately 40% in areas, but at much lower percentages in Northern Europe at less than 5%. The reason for the high levels of E1b1b in Abergele is most likely due to the heavy Roman legionary presence in Abergele as most of the Romans that came to Britain did not come from Italy, rather from other parts of the Roman Empire such as North Africa and eastern Europe. Above average levels of genetic marker E-V13 have been found in other towns in Britain that were known to have had a heavy Roman presence nearly 2000 years ago.

I'm curious as to the level of the E-M81 Eurasian Berber subclade in Wales.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

not enough reserach have been done on poulations of wales
not only north wales but also
southern wales e1b1b1b2 also exist in wales in the e3b project there are some e-m81
from wales a good explanation will be the spanish wing of the vettons which raised from western iberia very close portugal since m81 is neolithic or even earlier in iberia
will not be surprised if m81 arrived to wales by this unit
ps. to show you guys that i am not throwing things go to wikpedia or google and type: " list of roman auxiliry regiments" you can see the auxiliry units in germania superior, dacia ,germaania inferiour , and noricum {austria} many middle eastern units
since the roman were based mainly on archers from syria and cavalery from iberia and mooroco there was new site in kalefeld germany in saxony
genetic code

Where do you get the idea that E-M81 is Neolithic? It is pre-Neolithic.

[genetic code]

i dont know the level of e-m81 i am just sugesting that it is present in wales
maybe in the southern part and southwestern part of wales if you go to e3b project
my familia you can see jones from the isle of angelsey who is m81 {two predicted durden,edwards}
m81 are great cavalery and horse riders thats why the roman used them in the unit against silures tribe in south wales if you want full pictire genetically of wales you need more samples not just from the the north but also of other parts of wales
about m81 i dont know when iit arrived but i dont think it is moorish in iberia much before probably neolithic or even before
genetic code

[Gwyllgi]

Well a lot of Roman soldiers stayed on in the North West of England after the collapse of the Roman empire, and a lot of the Roman army were recruits from captured lands.

Chester was a huge Roman camp and surrounded by Roman settlements so that could have been a factor as well.

Or it could be just that we're close to Liverpool and all THAT entails!

[genetic code]

yes most of the soldiers were auxiliry like thracians ,dacians and delmatians
all those units carry e-v13
there is great articel of steven bird about roman soldiers of balkan origin
as source for e-v13 in britain
there is also roman britain site there were many units even two from the middle east
tigris bowman 480 , hamian archers 480
the unit from iraq was in tyne and were the unit from syria in northumberland and cumbria ,about chester you right
genetic code

[Maciamo]

Where do you get the idea that E-M81 is Neolithic? It is pre-Neolithic.

I think it is too soon to tell for Iberia, and in the case of the British Isles E-M81 is probably post-Neolithic.

[genetic code]

yeh in britain e-m81 is very low but it is found were the roman units were stationed
in wales and england scotland border in cumbria it is probably post neolithic
i can be sure that e-m81 in cantabaria is much before neolithic the moors were never there so it arrived earlier at the moment we dont know the date of its arrival to northen iberia
genetic code