Identifying the original Indo-European mtDNA from isolated settlements

[Maciamo]

MtDNA haplogroups U3 and X2 were identified in a new study of Tarim Basin inhabitants in the Taklamakan desert (Chinese Turkestan, aka Xinjiang).

Haplogroup U3 is common all around the Black Sea, which made me think that it was one of the main mt-haplogroups associated with Y-haplogroup R1b1b2. R1b1b2 has the highest genetic diversity in northern Anatolia and the Caucasus. My theory is that R1b migrated to the North Caucasus and the Pontic steppe circa 4500 BCE, and the resulting merger with local R1a steppe people gave birth to Proto-Indo-European culture.

Haplogroup X2 has long been a mystery due to its amazingly widespread distribution over all Europe, Russia, Central Asia, Siberia and as far as North America. Its only major peak of frequency is around the Caucasus, indicating that at least one/some subclade originated in that region (probably not the North American X2b). The close contact between steppe people and the Caucasus would have instilled X2 in Proto-Indo-European speakers.

The discovery of U3 and X2 in the Tarim Basin, where R1b1b and R1a1a make up roughly half of the male lineages, confirm the likelihood of a Indo-European link with these two haplogroups. The famous Tarim mummies proved the presence of faired hair Caucasians in this part of Central Asia at least 3800 years ago, during the Indo-European expansion.

Other studies had already found mt-haplogroups H, T, U2e and U4 among the Iron Age population of Xinjiang. All of them are still frequent in the Pontic-Caspian region nowadays. Haplogroup U2 was found in the 30,000 year-old Kostenki skeleton from the middle Volga. Most U2 individuals are now Indian. U2 is actually the only major "European" mt-haplogroup in the Indian subcontinent, along with W (and only traces of H and T). Both U2 and W are much more common in and around European Russia than the rest of Europe nowadays.

Haplogroup H and T being so common all over Europe and the Middle East today, it is difficult to estimate how much of it is of Indo-European origin. H was indubitably found among Paleolithic Europeans, Russians and Near Easterners. Only a detailed analysis of subclades can shed more light on the problem. So far I would say that H5a and H7 seem to be the best candidates for an Indo-European origin (Caucasus-Anatolia, so mirroring R1b1b more than R1a1a). H2 and H13 are also possible, but probably more closely linked to G2a.

Overall, my current estimation is that mitochondrial haplogroups I, U2, U4 and W strongly correlate with the spread of R1a1a, while H5a, H7, T, U3, U5a1 and X2 correlate best with R1b1b1 and R1b1b2.

[Maciamo]

The Y-DNA and mtdna of Cres islanders in Croatia and the Pasiegos in Cantabria (Spain) further confirms my hypothesis about mtDNA I, U2, U3, U4 and W being linked to steppe haplogroups R1a and R1b. I might also add U5b and V.

Cres islanders were found to have an unusually high frequency of mtDNA U2e (20%) and W (12.5%), two haplogroups found in Central Asia, Pakistan and North-West India, and is associated with regions with a high frequency of R1a with a moderate amount of R1b.

I do not have the Y-DNA data for Cres, but this extensive study of Croatian Y-DNA and mtDNA has data for the neighbouring island of Krk (no, there is no vowel missing ). The samples in Krk, representing western Croatia, have the highest frequency of R1a (35.5%) and R1b (16.5%) nationwide. Krk has the particularity of having an startlingly high percentage of mtDNA I (11.5%) and W (7.5%), but also some U4 (3%) and U2 (1.5%). Better still, haplogroup A, of Siberian or East Asian origin, has been detected in Krk too. It is difficult to see how hg A could have got to Croatia if not through the Pontic steppe.


The Pasiegos of Cantabria are another isolated community whose DNA can enlighten us on the prehistory of Europe. A special study was dedicated to them by Maca-Meyer et al. and found a surprising pocket of hg R1a (18%, against 2% for Spain nationwide), but also of mtDNA I (6%), U3 (1.5%) and U4 (2.5%). There are also remarkably high frequencies of V (20.7%), U5 (16%) and T3 (7.3%), all common in north-east Europe.

V and U5 are also relatively common in Spain (5% and 5.5%), but not in such proportions. It is possible that both haplogroups were already in Spain during the Paleolithic, but that new people brought an additional layer of them later. Besides Spanish U5 is typically U5a, not the eastern U5b found in 3.7% of Pasiegos. It is undeniable that haplogroup U5 is more frequent in north-east Europe than Spain. It peaks in Finland (18%) and Estonia (16%), but is also high in Russia (12%) and Ukraine (11%).

Combined with a strong presence of R1a, this points at a direct migration from Russia/Ukraine to Cantabria. Other Cantabrians have a similarly high frequency of haplogroup V (21.5%) and U (22%), including U2 (2.5%), U3 (2.5%), U4 (4.5%) and U5 (11.5%). This proportion of U subclades is strongly reminiscent of southern Russia. The other Cantabrians have 8% of R1a (still very high for western Europe) and 58% of R1b.

[Maciamo]

The Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region are interesting to study because they live where horses were first domesticate and the war chariot invented.

On the Y-chromosome side, the Bashkirs have 73% of R1 (R1a1a + R1b1b1 + R1b1b2) and 25% of Mongoloid haplogroups (C3, N, O). In other words, if we exclude the later Mongoloid admixture, the Y-DNA is almost 100% R1a and R1b, with just a little bit of I, G2a, E1b1b, J2 and T.

They have 34% of Mongoloid mtDNA (A, C, D, F1, G, M7, M8a, N9a, Y). Applying the same process to mtDNA would give a quite representative sample of ancient Indo-European haplogroups from the north-eastern steppe. The proportion is the following (I multiplied by 3/2 to get rid of the Mongoloid admixture) :

- H : 33%
- V : 3%
- J : 9%
- T : 4.5%
- U : 38.25% (U4 = 22.5% ; U5 = 11% ; U2 = 3.5%)
- K : 3.75%
- I : 0.75%
- W : 0.75%
- N1a : 3%
- M1 : 2.25%

The Middle Eastern haplogroups are N1a, M1, J, as well as a small percentage of U1 and U7 comprised within U. What is notable is the absence of hg X and U3, probably due to the distance from the Caucasus, or just due to the sampling bias.

[Maciamo]

More ancient mtDNA from Central Asia has been tested, ranging from 7000 to 1500 years ago.

In the Tarim Basin, 4000-year old remains belonged to both East Asian (C, D, F, G, M7, Z) and European haplogroups (H, K, U2e, U4, U5, W).

Interestingly, haplogroup U5a was found in Mongolia and southern Siberia (peri-Baikal region), some specimen as early as 7000 years ago, i.e. slightly before the presumed Indo-European expansion (following the domestication of the horse in the Volga-Ural region circa 6000 years ago).

Haplogroups H5a, H6, HV, I, K, T1, T3, T4, U2, U4, and U5a1 were found in the modern Xiongnu people around Lake Baikal, besides North-East Asian haplogroups C, F1b, G2a, N9a, and Z. This much greater diversity of European lineages confirms that bigger scale migrations took place from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Baikal region after 6000 years ago.

European haplogroups from other sites in ancient Siberia, Kazakhstan and Mongolia include HV, H, I, J1, K, T, U1, U2, U4, U5 and W. The presence of J1 and U1, usually associated with the Middle East, is moderately surprising. It is rare enough to invalidate a Middle-Eastern origin of the Indo-Europeans, but suggests that the Indo-Europeans were indeed neighbours and have taken Middle-Eastern wives occasionally.

The Y-DNA of the men tested above was constantly R1a1.


What's interesting here is the absence of R1b and of mtDNA U3 and X, which I have identified as the maternal equivalent of R1b. R1b now makes up about 20% of the Uighur male lineages, and U3 and X2 were both found in modern inhabitants of the Tarim Basin. It reinforces the evidence that R1b came along with U3 and X2. The question is when ? If 4,000-year-old Tarim mummies were all R1a1, it means that fair hair and tartan-pattern clothes, both associated with the Indo-Europeans, came from the R1a1 branch of the Indo-European rather than the southern R1b branch.

[Neander]

Bulgaria has the highest percentage of U3 in Europe (10%), and Romania has the highest for X2 (5%)

Do you think that Bulgaria was station of R1b during their expansion to West Europe?

And when thay came to Bulgaria?

[Maciamo]

Bulgaria has the highest percentage of U3 in Europe (10%), and Romania has the highest for X2 (5%)

Do you think that Bulgaria was station of R1b during their expansion to West Europe?

Yes, of course. Have a look at the migration maps. The explanations are here.

[Hansas]

.......
The Pasiegos of Cantabria are another isolated community whose DNA can enlighten us on the prehistory of Europe. A special study was dedicated to them by <.....> and found a surprising pocket of hg R1a (18%, against 2% for Spain nationwide), but also of mtDNA I (6%), U3 (1.5%) and U4 (2.5%). There are also remarkably high frequencies of V (20.7%), U5 (16%) and T3 (7.3%), all common in north-east Europe.

hi,
very intresting thing, that the word "pasiegos" has very similar words by sound and writting in Lithuanian - "pasagos". It means horseshoes. In Lithuania we have dominating R1a and N, and we know that ancestors liked riding horses

[Wilhelm]

hi,
very intresting thing, that the word "pasiegos" has very similar words by sound and writting in Lithuanian - "pasagos". It means horseshoes. In Lithuania we have dominating R1a and N, and we know that ancestors liked riding horses

yes, actually the people of Pasiegos are genetically connected with
North-Eastern Europeans :

"Congruent with this second hypothesis is a study on MHC class II polymorphisms
that closely relate Pasiegos to Danes, Poles
and Germans rather than to non-Pasiego Cantabrians"

(S´anchez-Velasco et al. 1999, 2003).

" Besides Spanish U5 is typically U5a, not the eastern U5b found in 3.7% of Pasiegos. It is undeniable that haplogroup U5 is more frequent in north-east Europe than Spain. It peaks in Finland (18%) and Estonia (16%), but is also high in Russia (12%) and Ukraine (11%).

Combined with a strong presence of R1a, this points at a direct migration from Russia/Ukraine to Cantabria. Other Cantabrians have a similarly high frequency of haplogroup V (21.5%) and U (22%), including U2 (2.5%), U3 (2.5%), U4 (4.5%) and U5 (11.5%). This proportion of U subclades is strongly reminiscent of southern Russia. The other Cantabrians have 8% of R1a (still very high for western Europe) and 58% of R1b. "

[LeBrok]

Very interesting stuff guys.
Most likely the high R1a and maternal haplos are related to migration of goths through Europe. The started from Scandinavia, and in something like 150 years went through Lithuania, Prussia then through Slavs land, and settled on north banks of Black Sea. They lived there for other hundred or two years (don't remember really) and moved west during great migration of nations at end of Roman Empire. Even though they spoke some old Nordic language, they have ended up as genetic mixture of Germanic, Slavic, Baltic peoples. If I'm right we should have raised I2a in Pasiegos areas and possibly some historic notes about strong Visigoth center there.

My other theory was that people called Veneti/Venedi/Venethi traveled from Baltic sea and settled there. They were squeezed out by Slavic expansion. Interesting is what Hansas say about the name of Pasiegos, because the last known settlement of Veneti/Venedi was in Lithuania or Latvia. There was a village or town with this name in past, maybe it's still there.

[willy]

More ancient mtDNA from Central Asia has been tested, ranging from 7000 to 1500 years ago.

In the Tarim Basin, 4000-year old remains belonged to both East Asian (C, D, F, G, M7, Z) and European haplogroups (H, K, U2e, U4, U5, W).

Interestingly, haplogroup U5a was found in Mongolia and southern Siberia (peri-Baikal region), some specimen as early as 7000 years ago, i.e. slightly before the presumed Indo-European expansion (following the domestication of the horse in the Volga-Ural region circa 6000 years ago).

Haplogroups H5a, H6, HV, I, K, T1, T3, T4, U2, U4, and U5a1 were found in the modern Xiongnu people around Lake Baikal, besides North-East Asian haplogroups C, F1b, G2a, N9a, and Z. This much greater diversity of European lineages confirms that bigger scale migrations took place from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Baikal region after 6000 years ago.

European haplogroups from other sites in ancient Siberia, Kazakhstan and Mongolia include HV, H, I, J1, K, T, U1, U2, U4, U5 and W. The presence of J1 and U1, usually associated with the Middle East, is moderately surprising. It is rare enough to invalidate a Middle-Eastern origin of the Indo-Europeans, but suggests that the Indo-Europeans were indeed neighbours and have taken Middle-Eastern wives occasionally.

The Y-DNA of the men tested above was constantly R1a1.


What's interesting here is the absence of R1b and of mtDNA U3 and X, which I have identified as the maternal equivalent of R1b. R1b now makes up about 20% of the Uighur male lineages, and U3 and X2 were both found in modern inhabitants of the Tarim Basin. It reinforces the evidence that R1b came along with U3 and X2. The question is when ? If 4,000-year-old Tarim mummies were all R1a1, it means that fair hair and tartan-pattern clothes, both associated with the Indo-Europeans, came from the R1a1 branch of the Indo-European rather than the southern R1b branch.

Do we have any DNA haplogroup from the Tarim mummies ? Do you have any scientific sources about ?
"R1b now makes up about 20% of the Uighur male lineages" what are the other haplogroups in the Uighur male lineage ?

"The presence of J1 and U1, usually associated with the Middle East, is moderately surprising. It is rare enough to invalidate a Middle-Eastern origin of the Indo-Europeans, but suggests that the Indo-Europeans were indeed neighbours and have taken Middle-Eastern wives occasionally." this is quite imaginative !

[Maciamo]

Do we have any DNA haplogroup from the Tarim mummies ? Do you have any scientific sources about ?

At least one of them was H, but I don't know the results for the others. I don't know why they keep the results secret (just like for Tutankhamun, whose Y-DNA was tested but had to be guessed from a possibly false video from the Discovery Channel).

"R1b now makes up about 20% of the Uighur male lineages" what are the other haplogroups in the Uighur male lineage ?

R1a (about 20% too), East Asian haplogroups (C, N1, O3, Q) and 5 to 10% of Middle Eastern haplogroups (mostly J with some E and G). The Indo-European also carried G2a (according to my theory R1b and G2a interacted and mixed a lot around the Caucasus and Anatolia), and some J2 and E1b1b (inevitable if R1b originated in Anatolia).

"The presence of J1 and U1, usually associated with the Middle East, is moderately surprising. It is rare enough to invalidate a Middle-Eastern origin of the Indo-Europeans, but suggests that the Indo-Europeans were indeed neighbours and have taken Middle-Eastern wives occasionally." this is quite imaginative !

It's been common in all societies on earth to take wives among neighbouring populations. In primitive societies it was a way of maintaining peace. What is certain is that Middle-Eastern mtDNA is not overwhelming at all in the Eurasian steppe and northern Central Asia.

[willy]

As you Maciamo I don't know why they keep the Tarim mummies secret about Tutankhamun we have the same secret I think there are some nationalism political views in that because modern Egyptians think they are descendants to the Egyptian pharaohs or to the Old Egypt civilization so I am sure that if Tut was E or J they don't miss the opportunity to tell it so if Tut was R1b1b2 or R1a this would be quite horrible for them !I understand the secret .

[Semitic Duwa]

It's been common in all societies on earth to take wives among neighbouring populations. In primitive societies it was a way of maintaining peace. What is certain is that Middle-Eastern mtDNA is not overwhelming at all in the Eurasian steppe and northern Central Asia.

You should dig into the subclade, J1d is almost non-existant among Central-Asians. J1b is the most favourised clade given to the spread of agriculture.

The latter, along with J1c and J2a held an crucial role in the spread of IE languages associated with R1b1b2's path (sometimes R1a1 although T2b2 is more comon with this one's path).

Ok TY Maciamo I agree I don't know also why they keep the results secret
About Tutankhamun we have the same thing OK again I think there are some nationalism political views in that the modern Egyptians think that they are descendant to Egyptian pharaohs or to the old Egypt civilization so I am sure that if Tut was E or J they tell it to the world so if Tut is R1b1b2 this is horrible for them !

He would actually be R1b1a...Not R1b1b2.

[secherbernard]

What's interesting here is the absence of R1b and of mtDNA U3 and X, which I have identified as the maternal equivalent of R1b. R1b now makes up about 20% of the Uighur male lineages, and U3 and X2 were both found in modern inhabitants of the Tarim Basin. It reinforces the evidence that R1b came along with U3 and X2. The question is when ? If 4,000-year-old Tarim mummies were all R1a1, it means that fair hair and tartan-pattern clothes, both associated with the Indo-Europeans, came from the R1a1 branch of the Indo-European rather than the southern R1b branch.

When R1b arrived in Tarim Basin, is the first question. The second one, is : from where ?

[willy]

When R1b arrived in Tarim Basin, is the first question. The second one, is : from where ?

R1b came to the Tarim Basin ? where is that source ? Maciamo said : " The Y-DNA of the men tested above was constantly R1a1. " so the the Tarim mummies haplogroup is secret

[willy]

The latter, along with J1c and J2a held an crucial role in the spread of IE languages associated with R1b1b2's path (sometimes R1a1 although T2b2 is more comon with this one's path).
He would actually be R1b1a...Not R1b1b2.

According Colin RenfrewJ1c1 is well associated in the spread of IE languages so this is also my opinion
About Tut we have no DNA haplogroup information .

[Semitic Duwa]

According Colin Renfrew J1c1 is well associated in the spread of IE languages so this is also my opinion

Have you got a link for this?

[willy]

Have you got a link for this?

I have a video about Colin 's conference and he shows a pictures where we can see clearly that for him haplogroup mt J is associated to the Indo europeans I will you send it
as soon as possible .

[Semitic Duwa]

I have a video about Colin 's conference and he shows a pictures where we can see clearly that for him haplogroup mt J is associated to the Indo europeans I will you send it
as soon as possible .

Ok, thanks

[willy]

Ok, thanks

http://www.diffusion.ens.fr/college/...onf&idconf=663

look at one of these conferences

[Semitic Duwa]

Can't watch them

[Semitic Duwa]

I have a video about Colin 's conference and he shows a pictures where we can see clearly that for him haplogroup mt J is associated to the Indo europeans I will you send it
as soon as possible .

Considering that he correlates the Neolithic income as IE, he indeed considers J as IE. The second vid is the good one.

[willy]

Considering that he correlates the Neolithic income as IE, he indeed considers J as IE. The second vid is the good one.

Correct : According Renfrew 20 % mt J found in Europe is associated to the Neolithic migration from Anatolia as Y DNA R1b1b2 and probably also associated to the IE language .


I would like to talk a little bit about G2a * ( I mean some subclades ) this haplogroup seems to me associated to the Iranian dynasties of the Kassites who ruled western Iran and its extensions in the Mesopotamian plains down to the beginning of the first millennium B.C. So the Scythians overran what is today Palestine, Israel and Lebanon in the 7th Century BC seem also a good way to explain G2a amongst the Druse peoples of Lebanon . On my opinion the scythians seem connected to them . The Scythians moved through Asia as far as Afghanistan, with forward groups penetrating to the Indus River in India and G2a is found in some upper and middle castes of India so the subclade found on India is close to the western European one . G2a on Western Europe is probably connected to a Alanic migration at the same expansion during the same time . The The Kura-Araxes culture or the Early trans-Caucasian culture, was a civilization that existed from 3400 B.C it takes time to have a mixture of some haplogroups on this area (black sea - Caucasus) . R1a was associated to G2a during those migrations to Persia and India . 20% R1a + 20% G2a ---> Kalash people
and J mt haplogroup is found amongst 9% of these people (small ethnic community dwelling in the Hindu Kush mountains of Pakistan).

[daspit]

Haplogroup X2 has long been a mystery due to its amazingly widespread distribution over all Europe, Russia, Central Asia, Siberia and as far as North America. Its only major peak of frequency is around the Caucasus, indicating that at least one/some subclade originated in that region (probably not the North American X2b). The close contact between steppe people and the Caucasus would have instilled X2 in Proto-Indo-European speakers.

Isn't X2a the distinctively North American (i.e. Amerindian) subclade, not X2b? Just curious...

[foryouandme]

Better still, haplogroup A, of Siberian or East Asian origin, has been detected in Krk too. It is difficult to see how hg A could have got to Croatia if not through the Pontic steppe.

Here's three possibilities:

1. The Silk Road
2. The Ottoman Empire
3. The Magyars

also haplogroup mtDNA F has been found in Hvar Island.

The Middle Eastern haplogroups are N1a, M1, J, as well as a small percentage of U1 and U7 comprised within U.

With all due respect, I wouldn't consider Haplogroup M as Middle Eastern. It's more of an South Asian, East Asian and Horn African Haplogroup.