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Illyria from Illyroi which in Greek has meaning of 'the conquerors of Wilusa'. ...Originally Posted by ultimo_m
or are you talking about
Lyria from illyria which is a girls name from IIRC shakespeare's Twelth Night
or you mean
Illyris graeca .......which is the only true illyrian people which lived nest to the greeks
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I am sorry to disappoint you but i dont like to tell stories ...
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I am curious, where have you read these things ?! not all the things that you search in google are true
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LOL of course you can't tell stories about the "albanian" meaning of Illyria because it hasn't been invented yet. Albanian and FYROM share the same desire to invent and distort history for their own liking.
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@ Sile
Some celtic name in illyrian people dosen't mean that illyrians were celts :P
Also you have a lot of illyrian emperors of rome, whith roman names, but they still were illyrians
- I have an arabic name from Islamic culture (that my family accepted these last years), but I'm not arab at all... in the other hand, my father's name is Isak, but he's not a Jew at all...
- Names are characterized on the basis of many components (from religion, culture, subculture, etc.) and those that albanians consider them as national names, actually were Illyrian names too.
@ Elias
I gave you tons of materials in last pages, that you have to take into consideration for debate if you have something to say, and don't pass silently as always to catch whith someone's word, who dont know the history as it should.
By the way, Illyria has pure an albanian meaning:
1. I lir = free (I'm free= Une jam i lirë; or free people)
2. ill or yll = Star; Like firs king of Illyrians - Bardhyl - Bardh=white; Yll-Star. Also Ar (Is antonym. Before was used about the meaning of the sun, now more is used about the meaning about the human. As "shqiptar" - shqip=eagle; ar=human)
Which one do you want to take ? ;)
+ Do you have a albanian name: Over 60 names: http://www.behindthename.com/bb/fact/32704
+ http://www.aboutnames.ch/albanian.htm
+ Illyrian word=Albanian words: http://www.illyrians.org/illyrian-alb.html
+ many Illyrian..............................Albanian.... .................English words from the page 4 in this topic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page4 ... dont make me to repeat the arguments, or don't talk about them, if you don't even read at all. I wonder, how can you speak scientifically, if you don't even read the arguments- read the albanian-illyrian ties too (just read something man:)...
+ I want to make you know also, that we Albanians in recent years (before the '90) were stopped from slavs the naming of children in albanian meaning that has to do whith history, as Ilir, Agron, Bato, Bardhyl, Alban, Arbër, Dardan, Taulant, Kreshnik... and my father was in jail for 11 months only beacuse my brother was named Ilir - So, now you can think how deep was the repression of invaders to stop the albanian national memory... even the stoping of the basics human rights, like is the naming of your son.
By the way, if you want to talk about names, I have other tons of materials, but after replying me about these in previous pages, in the last page at least.
... So after all these arguments, why you still proceed to be so pseudo-nationalist in your aproach ?!
(science has suffered a lot from people like you)
@ zanipolo
Graecus was the name given by the Romans to an Illyrian Epirotic tribe, the Graes. The name Graecus is said to be frequent in Etruscan onomastic. Also said to be from Graikos, the inhabitants of Graia in Boeotia. Perhaps not coincidentally, one may mention the Albanian village of Greci in Campania (Italy). From a root gr-k having the notion of raucous or having a desagreable voice. The Illyrian speech sounded unpleasant to a Roman ear
http://www.michel-desfayes.org/namesofcountries.html
Last edited by Besir Bajrami; 14-09-11 at 17:36.
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No, science has suffered alot from people like you. Earliest albanians recounts come from the MIDDLE AGES, not before. I told you before that Illyria extended past albania into the old yugoslavia, then you respond saying the slavs came down and replaced them. Unless there was widespread genocide against the Illyrians from the incomming slavs, the people who inhabit todays bosnia, dalamatia, slovienia, should have DNA similar to albanians... the thing is albanian DNA is closer to greeks, so there goes your theory.
If you want to understand where albanians came form you should start by studying the Gheg language and not the Tosk which was influenced by greek when the albanians came down south into Epirus in the high middles ages.
If you want to know my opinion, the "albanians" or shiptars, where a nomadic group the Byzantines allowed to settle in their land in return for christianization as was done frequently in that time period. Byzantines would christianize nomadic turks then hire them as mercenaries, the albanians were also mercenaries during the middles ages, I don't see this as any different.
Study the old Gheg language, pre-Tosk standardized, and where on earth other languages are/were similar, then you'll find out where shiptars came from.
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I agree, but I was stating that the illyrians in the north where different from the ones in the south. It was stated that the true illyrians where from Montenegro to epirus and the northern ones where different. this is also found in the DNA.
As for Albanians, you initially never claimed you where illyrians during history and all I found is that albanians where from Dacian tribes.
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@ Elias 2
How old are you ?!
I think you are a spamer... don't spam if you don't have nothing to argue. I answered you already many times, but you like parrot continues to repeat the same word: "what YOU think" !
That's because you don't have the culture to debate, you don't EVEN READ a part of hundreds of studies (not what I think) that have been made on these issues and I mention hundreds of them. I know that the positions or attitudes are hard to change, especially when we have dealing with the whole machinery propagandists of slavic invaders, just because history gives the right to Albanians about autochthony... but you are ready to make us aliens, just not to have connection whith Illyrians as people before slavs in this Peninsula, where still is left a non slavic nation - Albanians.
P.S: I told you so many times why we have some DNA haplotypes in common whith south slavs (more whith south slavs and not whith other slavs), and why whith greeks... read them and reply.
Also I trasmit you thousands of "pree midle age materials", that you have to READ. When you are brainwashed, or poisoned by pseudo nationalism, you act like a dazzling and sometimes it's hard just to read !
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@ Elias 2
How old are you ?!
I think you are a spamer... don't spam if you don't have nothing to argue. I answered you already many times, but you like parrot continues to repeat the same word: "what YOU think"[/QUOTE]
What I think is based of IMPERICAL evidence, linguistics, DNA, records, events. You are basing it off pure geography, geography that doesn't even MATCH what Illyria was. You take anything you find and overemphisis anything common with albanians.
You still think that the slavs that came to the balkans, commited genocide on the population before? get over that, it didn't happen.
Albanian DNA is very different from your northern, classical "Illyrian" lands; and have much more in common with Greek DNA, stop ignoring this huge fact.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
The distinctivness of the Gheg language should be the biggest piece of evidence that it came from the outside in. Like I said before study the Gheg language and where similar languages originate, then you know where shiptars came from. I've read around that it is similar to old caucasian languages, I will try to find the studies on that.
P.S. I've re-read your "evidence" on the last page and I must say, basing this thesis on costumes is not very solid, and Iapetoc did a very good job refutting most of your other points.
So don't say I have a nationalistic approach when you try to fit a circle into a square slot.
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[QUOTE
What I think is based of IMPERICAL evidence, linguistics, DNA, records, events. You are basing it off pure geography, geography that doesn't even MATCH what Illyria was. You take anything you find and overemphisis anything common with albanians. [/QUOTE]
I'm waiting your evidences... because mine are from linguistics, DNA, records, events + antropology, history, art... but you repeat only the same words as I see (what YOU think)...
[QUOTE
You still think that the slavs that came to the balkans, commited genocide on the population before? get over that, it didn't happen. [/QUOTE]
Than what ? - Slavs are Illyrians and they invated them self, or what you'r trying to say ?!
[QUOTE
Albanian DNA is very different from your northern, classical "Illyrian" lands; and have much more in common with Greek DNA, stop ignoring this huge fact. [/QUOTE]
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
So many times I have to say that this is one more fact that slavs are not whith the same DNA whith illyrians or albanians, pressed back where they collected now... and that DNA what they have in common, are from illyrian, or albanian DNA what was assimilated in slavic (no matter that this was happened by genocide, or just from slavic domination slowly), think why just south slavic have dna in common whith albanians and other slavs not!...
also arvanites (albanians) or illyrians in south, they call them self greeks today, only by the religious division that became the creation of the Greek state, orthodox albanian are the best greeks now, and many of them fought against muslim albanians in north-west greeks... so, in greece are to many arvanites, what they feel like greeks, that's why we have the same dna whith them... for these words I say... i transmit you documents, facts... from so many components in last pages... read them, because I'm bored to repeat you the same thing that you pass silently
[QUOTE
The distinctivness of the Gheg language should be the biggest piece of evidence that it came from the outside in. Like I said before study the Gheg language and where similar languages originate, then you know where shiptars came from. I've read around that it is similar to old caucasian languages, I will try to find the studies on that.[/QUOTE]
Ghegs are from north Illyrian tribes, tosks are from south illyrian tribes... and they have the same words in different intonation and emphasis. {Gea (dhea/dheu...) means eardh/land/ground... also Tok means the same}.
And remember that if you take only these in Europe as Illyrians... than these illyrians are one root about albanian people... but if you take these in asia minor as illyrians to, than these illyrians collectively are represented by albanian language, culture, Dna...
In this level, Illyrians - Pelasgians are the same people.
[QUOTE
P.S. I've re-read your "evidence" on the last page and I must say, basing this thesis on costumes is not very solid, and Iapetoc did a very good job refutting most of your other points. [/QUOTE]
If you read something... It will be very courageous act to reply me one by one about every word, whith contra evidence, like I did.
And yes, Iapetoc thinks that arvanites are the old greeks (or helens)... and i think the same... and now start learning about the ethnicity of arvanites ;)
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DNA; "evidence" is mute because you think slavs eradicated albanians from the former yugoslavia, this is your #1 dream, and #1 reason your theory holds no water.
take a look at the chart again, and look at albania and compaire it to bosnia, vastly different;
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
Linguistics; we have almost nothing about Illyrian language, the coins that are excavated have greek on them, we have nothign to compaire, there is no linguistic evidence to connect albanians to illyrians. You might give examples on similar sounding words for tribes, but the generation gap, and taken into account language evolution, it isn't much to go on. Alot of different languages can take illyrian tribal names and find somethign similar in theri vocabulary.
Records; what records did you have that connect albanians with Illyrians? the earliest albanian record is a church recording in the middles ages.
Archeaological, you show a statue wearing a dress from an ancient greek city and you say its Illyrian, I don't need to comment on this.
Slav is a name imposed on them from other european people that stuck. Slav is not a name they came up for themselves, just like how the Byzantines never called themselves that, it just stuck because a historian called them it. People call shiptars albanians, same deal.Than what ? - Slavs are Illyrians and they invated them self, or what you'r trying to say ?!
Was there a south slav migration? of course, I don't deny there was, but I don't think for a second the original inhabitants dissapeared into outer space.
So you do believe in a "genocide" theory. Read what I wrote before, your genocide theory hasn't got a shred of evidence, the evidence we do have tells a different story.
So many times I have to say that this is one more fact that slavs are not whith the same DNA whith illyrians or albanians, pressed back where they collected now... and that DNA what they have in common, are from illyrian, or albanian DNA what was assimilated in slavic (no matter that this what happens by genocide, or just from slavic domination)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
DNA doesn't lie.
So every greek is albanian then? or just the "best greeks". I talk about this later... also arvanites (albanians) or illyrians in south, they call them self greeks today, only by the religious division that became the creation of the Greek state, orthodox albanian are the best greeks now, and many of them fought against muslim albanians in north-west greeks... so, in greece are to many arvanites, what they feel like greeks, that's why we have the same dna whith them... for these words I say... i transmit you documents, facts... from so many components in last pages... read them, because I'm bored to repeat you the same thing that you pass silently
First off, you are quoting a book that appears to be well over 100 years old if they say albania is apart of european Turkey, alot has historiography has been done since then.
Ghegs are from north Illyrian tribes, tosks are from south illyrian tribes... and they have the same words in different intonation and emphasis. {Gea (dhea/dheu...) means eardh/land/ground... also Tok means the same}.
And remember that if you take only these in Europe as Illyrians... than these illyrians are one root about albanian people... but if you take these in asia minor as illyrians to, than these illyrians collectively are represented by albanian language, culture, Dna...
In this level, Illyrians - Pelasgians are the same people.
Secondly, thats alot of statesments with no evidence to back it up. I'll re-iterate; the first written acknowledgment of albanians in albania came from the middles ages. Written acknowledgment of albanians in Southern italy are also in the middles ages, Albanians were used as mercenaries, similar to other other nomadic newcommers in Byzantium, I'm just pointing out facts.
If you read something... It will be very courageous act to reply me one by one about every word, whith contra evidence, like I did.
And yes, Iapetoc thinks that arvanites are the old greeks (or helens) too by culture... and i think the same... and now start learning about the ethnicity of arvanites
Judging by the migration patterns on the map above, albanians and greeks have similar DNA not because every Greek is an arvanite but because shiptars invaded and assimulated Greek Epirus (proto-albanians). Just like how slavs invaded and assimulated the people of the former yugoslavia (illyrium) area you claim was full of albanians.
Another thing I would like to mention is that you said I called albanians aliens to the balkans, I just want to make something clear, I don't think the albanian people are alien, or should I say the people that live in albania, I just think albanian ethos is foreign, much like turkish, hungarian, ect.
Before the arrival of shiptars could the people of albanian be Illyrian? Maybe, but I think its more plausible that albanians used to be Dorian.
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@Sile, I don't agree when you say that today DNA tell us the same that north illyrians were different whith south illyrians, because you don't have today north or south illyrians, all illyrians are colected in today Albania, even that there are some illyrian blood or dna in slavic and greek populations, from the assimilation process in a part of illyrians... so that blood is a mix and don't represent the illyrians south or north as it was. So, don't take an example of south slavic DNA as a whole, like an ancient illyrian DNA...
Also, the links whith dacians and albanians that you had find, are are understandable because dacians were from Thracian, or for someone they were Illyrians too, but if we go deeply in this question, we can see that Thracian and Illyrians can be the same people... that's why and for albanians scientists think that they are the direct Thraco-Illyrians descendant.
But I agree that there were differences in illyrian tribes itself, every tribe has their own history but I dont agree that south Illyria was from today Montenegro to Epir, this was later, when illyrians started to draw themself... because there was an illyrian tribes in Asia minor too (these can be considered as south illyrians, or south-east if you want:)
@ Elias2
Where were all these albanians than (and if history and legend affort no record that they were migrated from somewere and all those cultural links, in the broad sense of this word, whith ancient cultures of the same region), if not in central Illyria or drawn in the mountains from greek invasions (colony) from south, and slavic too from north ?!
+ Read National Geographic:
"Thus pressed back, The Illyrian, Epirot and Macedonians clans consolidated themself in what geography knows as Albania"
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...8_934157_n.jpg
or Britannica:
"The albanians are the most ancient race in southeastern Europe. History and legend affort no record of their arrival in Balkan peninsula"
http://oi53.tinypic.com/jhcvf5.jpg
+ Read Britannica (from Illyria to Albania) about this period: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...zantine-Empire
"The tribes of southern Illyria, however—including modern Albania—averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue..."
"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one..."
"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century ce by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage..."
I enjoy to answer you whith books:)
The native Illyrians and Thracians of the occupied regions retired into the mountains, where they remained unnoticed till the eleventh century, when they emerged as Albanians and Vlachs
Studies on the demography of the Byzantine empire: collected studies - "ETHNIC CHANGES IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY" - PETER CHARANIS
I can transmit you all day materials, but you are poisoned whith hate, that's why you accept easily the propaganda in relation to your subjectivity... so it's all vain for you to learn something new (for you), because your mind is closed in this subject.
...it's so boring to talk whith someone like you. I asked you by the way to reply me about the last pages, not when I talk to you like in MSN in the last reply, not when I talk to you in subjective level (about wether for example:P), but i transmit you objective evidences that are waiting for you in last pages... you already have all the answers, and you pass them like nothing was transmited!
The answer of your claims are here (not to be repeated):
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page2
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page4
+... for the origin, language, race, culture of the Albanians
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...b160e5a&type=1
I see that you have problem whith learning... If you don't have something personal (like it can be hate against a nation, or race, or culture....) than i have to teach you this: First, you have to open your mind about new sources... than stop for e while and reflect... think... than make a stand in relation to what you've learned... what is still relative whith other new sources... so proceed to have an open mind...
You:
DNA; "evidence" is mute because you think slavs eradicated albanians from the former yugoslavia, this is your #1 dream, and #1 reason your theory holds no water.
Me:
When the south slavs came from the VII century, there were living indigenous people, called Illyrians. So that area wasn't empty - Even that gradualy many illyrians become slavic, but they (as e big culture) did not disappeared completely from the earth... there are linguistic (like latin and greek influence in albanian language that meand albanians were there in that time + some names, toponyms, hidronyms wich survive the changing from the invaders... + measured with the comparative model of albanian language whith others + etymology = albanian/illyrian the same language), cultural (gods or paganism, symbols, songs, clothing...), race (the same dinaric + alpic and mediterranean race), dna, etc, that links directly albanian whith illyrian people. Sorry that albanians have to represent them, but these are evidences (linguistical, cultural, historical, antropological, folklor, geographical, and logic too if you want...) :S
You:
take a look at the chart again, and look at albania and compaire it to bosnia, vastly different;
Me:
Of course that there mustbe differences, because Illyrians(albanians) and slavs(bosnians), are not the same people, but the haplotypes in common what they have, are as a result of part of assimilated Illyrians into the Slavic nation...
...this phenomenon has continued and still continues today in that line what are meeting the Slavs and Albanians... and assimilation is made only in one side, from an albanian to slavic (as conquering force that has the greatest impact in population). In my contry (Macedonia) for example, only in few last years, we have lost cities wich were full with albanians (like Monastir, Kumanovo, Ohrid, Prespa, even Skopje, Struga, etc. and some continue to be pressed back in albanian territory, some others change their nationality in slavic, whith the help of the church. All orthodox albanians in Macedonia were change their ethnicity in slavic, just like them in Greece)
You:
Secondly, thats alot of statesments with no evidence to back it up. I'll re-iterate; the first written acknowledgment of albanians in albania came from the middles ages. Written acknowledgment of albanians in Southern italy are also in the middles ages
Me:
If you want to confuse the fisrt book in albanian language in 15 century, whith history of albanian people or albanian language, than you are illiterate in these questions. Although many have already deciphered ancient pelasgian inscriptions whith the Albanian language...
...anyway, antiquity of a language is measured with the comparative model. For example, the etymology is part of this measurement (do you heard sometimes about smalles semantic units that shape meaning of other words?)... and the result is:
+ https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._7852111_n.jpg
Page 45
It will be easier to confirm our opinion on the origin of Albanian Pelasgian, since this language is kept constant in his greatest traits over the centuries until today, according to historical facts.
As already predicted the German scientist Muller, Albanian will give us the key to the solution of several problems related to linguistic and ethnographic literature Greco-Latin.
Appointed Pelaka Skype or by Albanians living in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia and Italy, Arber by Albanians in Greece, this dialect is formed from a few thousand words and monosyllables bisyllabic, roots dry and arid without prefixes or suffixes some exceptions.
Excluding neopelasgian words, Latin or Greek, Turkish, Slavic or other, the skeleton appears in its nakedness idiom hard, almost eolodorien or wind, approaching all-in-fact of dialects in the epigrams etched old, or sung by the rhapsodies and Aedes oldest Greek.
Page 49
Rhapsodies in Homer, despite all the corrections implied by the Athenians, we find many words in use among the Homeric Albanians, which argues for the antiquity of the Albanians.
Page 57
The Albanians finally mourn their dead in the Homeric way women (date, the Albanian-oAoXu xXatmoi;, oXoXi5Ço>), repeating the words izi, oïzi = black, unhappy.
Homer used this word once oizôc Curiously, the word zi, Zia returned to each moment in the archaic inscription found on Lemnos, cited by the Honourable Dr. Apostolides.
This word means in Albanian sepulchral still mourning and phrase na zia erd wind that we came into mourning.
What makes some scientists argue that the language of the inscription resembles Albanian, this relic of Pelasgian, especially as the island of Lemnos was home exclusively to the Pelasgians until the time of Miltiades, who occupied
Conclusion:
The inclusion of the island of Lemnos has been written in language Pelasgian, the Pelasgians were not completely absorbed and they are back with their descendants, shqiptar or Albanians, as well as history and linguistic prove.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qFg...petare&f=false
- For more linguistic evidences, see also page nr. 4 in this topic:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page4
- From the second page in this topic, i transmit you houndreds of BOOKS! ... which came from american, german, french, english, italian even from slavic and greek scientist, who write against your way of thinking here, but you pass them silently to say something in your own, just because you wanna transmit hate here and nothing else !
You:
Records; what records did you have that connect albanians with Illyrians?
Me:
See the illyrians ties whith albanians in the last page :)
You:
Archeaological, you show a statue wearing a dress from an ancient greek city and you say its Illyrian, I don't need to comment on this.
Me:
I will comment... Fustanella is greek ?! when all the world knows that is an albanian traditional costume of the all Albanians, latter was in use only by Tosk Albanians(until today).
Search about Fustanella - http://www.google.com/#q=the%20Alban...6d7fcb6d497136 ...{"fustan"-dress in albanian (and in no other language); "funt/d"-the lower part of the dress; "an"-side (or the lower side of the dress - Fustanella), also fút (whith accent at "u"), is the name of that type of clothing, which we put forward at the bottom of the body, when we have to work something.... like freemasons today:)}...
You:
I just think albanian ethos is foreign, much like turkish, hungarian, ect.
Me:
Info + In this evidence, turks are that part of illyrian or pelasgian dna, what were assimilated in new comers ethnicity, so is not talking about mongols :)
The Encyclopædia britannica- a dictionary of arts, sciences ... Volume 1 Pg. 483
And the new trend that I see in the anti-Albanian propaganda is dividing the name Albanian from Shqiptar, because speaking in the name of albanians have some problem whith albanian name in ancient time... and now what to do? - Let's take the name Shqiptar, how albanians call themself in their language, because this name can be better to atack maybe :S
But you don't know why albanians call themself shqiptar (sons of the eagle). That's because albani tribe, was one tribe of illyrians... and albanians today are a result of illyrians, macedonians and epirotes tribes (pelasgians)... and the name albani is not properly presented them. But sons of the eagle have to do whith this:
or
+ The oldest surviving inhabites are Albanians, descedants of group of people known as Illyrians, the Thracians and the Dacians: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/75670_147272011987243_100001133356751_224000_72593 40_n.jpg
Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances
Dorothy Margaret Vaughan
And let's finish whith this one for today ;)
If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tPE...ed=0CCsQ6AEwAA
... even that and the name Albani, is used in the antiquity about the same old people of Europe, like Albanians in Scotland and so many other places around the Mediterranean, like Maciamo said in the first page: "...the Indo-European R1b people supposedly arrived in Albania around 2100 BCE, during the Maliq III culture... the Bronze Age reached Scotland almost exactly at the same period. Both could be offshoots from the Unetice culture from Central Europe. Who knows, perhaps this common source of IE people called themselves "Alba(n)" ?
Also, about maps, you have to understand that they don't describe the autochthony always, but they are the result of expensions (invasions). We have survival history and as you go deeper in time, will see that our territory is larger. Restriction (contraction) of our territory is continuous occurrence since prehistory, we can't boast with any map, except the oldest ones that comfort us a little bit (because contraction is lower).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3356751&type=1
We have also occupations maps that there is no Albania, but this does not mean that there was no Albanian ...
In fact these are maps that invasions are documented. Even just on the basis of maps of this kind, neighbors claim territories. And not whith autochthony.
P.S.:
I'll tell you something: Albanians have a surviving history and they don't care about history, or to tell you who were, or to know more about these things... Albanian nationalism is 0... that's why these people who still survived remained around separated borders from the year 1913 (for the last time that we were divided), still can't make their natural state, to reach the point (o)zero, like every nation in Europe, because now we are in - (minus). The institutions don't care about these things too... the primary task about us was to survive from invaders... and now is to make money, because the poverty has been a permanent problem about us, this fact make terrain about predatory neighbors, to continue with their claims to take the whole country.
I'm interesting about history, only because I am angry whith the poor anti-albanian propaganda which circulates from the southern Slavs and Greeks, only because they still want to tear apart the territory of the Albanians wich is left and the right of autochthony make nervous the predatory neighbors.
...but these studies about the language, culture, symbolism, antropology, history of the albanians... are done from foreign scientists (Germans, French, British, Americans, Italians, and even some truth seekers Slavic and Greek scientists). They have observed a very old language, very ancient symbolism, old race and very old model of culture at all, of these survival people that are trying to Self-isolate themself in mountains, from permanent invasions. But if for the scientists albanians are treasure, guarded from the modern deformation, the dark side of this fact is the ignorance of the survivors and cultural inclination/trend/propensity what is recorded in DNA and have to pass more than 6,000 years to alter fundamentally
Last edited by Besir Bajrami; 18-09-11 at 04:54.
Achievements:
I don't have a problem with learning, it just seems you are fasinated in connecting albanians to some ancient language, the thing is, no one speaks a ancient language anymore, why do you think albanians are different? becauce you are one?
Me:
Maybe those "inhareted" cultural icons you are talking about that the Illyrians had now the south slavs have are because the south slavs are the Illyrians, with the slavic peopls absorbed. See with you its always they have these elements because we gave it to them some distant time ago with no evidence it was even albanian to begin with. And you keep on saying Illyrian languge, can you please give me one example of an incription with Illyrian on it? I don't think there is any.When the south slavs came from the VII century, there were living indigenous people, called Illyrians. So that area wasn't empty - Even that gradualy many illyrians become slavic, but they (as e big culture) did not disappeared completely from the earth... there are linguistic (like latin and greek influence in albanian language that meand albanians were there in that time + some names, toponyms, hidronyms wich survive the changing from the invaders... + measured with the comparative model of albanian language whith others + etymology = albanian/illyrian the same language), cultural (gods or paganism, symbols, songs, clothing...), race (the same dinaric + alpic and mediterranean race), dna, etc, that links directly albanian whith illyrian people. Sorry that albanians have to represent them, but these are evidences (linguistical, cultural, historical, antropological, folklor, geographical, and logic too if you want...) :S
These differnces arn't small... they are pretty large. The two main groups for albanians, J2 and E1b1b make up 50%. In bosnia, I2 is 50% by itself, with little J2 and half of E1B1B. Ignore these facts though, because they don't help you at all.Of course that there mustbe differences, because Illyrians(albanians) and slavs(bosnians), are not the same people, but the haplotypes in common what they have, are as a result of part of assimilated Illyrians into the Slavic nation...
That I would like to see, considering Albanian didn't even have a written language untill recently, I guess albanians forgot over time?If you want to confuse the fisrt book in albanian language in 15 century, whith history of albanian people or albanian language, than you are illiterate in these questions. Although many have already deciphered ancient pelasgian inscriptions whith the Albanian language...
-It will make you happy that I read everything you posted, but the thing that struck me most was the date these books were published, some over 100 years ago, the most recent in 1941...From the second page in this topic, i transmit you houndreds of BOOKS! ... which came from american, german, french, english, italian even from slavic and greek scientist, who write against your way of thinking here, but you pass them silently to say something in your own, just because you wanna transmit hate here and nothing else !
I don't want to transmit hate anywhere, but I see alot of overstreched, outdated reasoning by you to try and justify your grounds. I'm sure people in the 19th century knew of everythign that was discover after, the 1800's was a very romantic time in portraying european history to any greatness.
Maybe you should think about who exactly are Tosk albanians are who lived in Northern Epirus before the albanians miragted south, then maybe its not to crazy that the dress is greek.Me:
I will comment... Fustanella is greek ?! when all the world knows that is an albanian traditional costume of the all Albanians, latter was in use only by Tosk Albanians(until today).
Search about Fustanella - http://www.google.com/#q=the%20Alban...6d7fcb6d497136 ...{"fustan"-dress in albanian (and in no other language); "funt/d"-the lower part of the dress; "an"-side (or the lower side of the dress - Fustanella), also fút (whith accent at "u"), is the name of that type of clothing, which we put forward at the bottom of the body, when we have to work something.... like freemasons today:)}...
Oh now you are trying to use DNA to prove your point when before you just brushed it off as "assimulation" because if you are really trying to use DNA to prove your point its counter-intuitive, albanians are related much more closley to greeks than bosnians, for obvious reasons.Me:
Info + In this evidence, turks are that part of illyrian or pelasgian dna, what were assimilated in new comers ethnicity, so is not talking about mongols :)
I guess you think macedons were albanian now, when we have a clear record on their development, you sound like a skopian.But you don't know why albanians call themself shqiptar (sons of the eagle). That's because albani tribe, was one tribe of illyrians... and albanians today are a result of albanians, macedonians and epirotes tribes (pelasgians)... and the name albani is not properly presented them.
I hate to break it to you, but in modern day albania and kosovo there were mines and roads the romans used extensively, this whole nationalism the albanians go by "surviving invansion in mountains", is utter rubbish, no one in europe survived influence from another group. Southern Vhlacs are even hypothesised about being the romanised citizens during the classical times, and even these poeple lived in mountains. If albaians lived there and kept out of sight they would still be pagan in religion. The most obvious answer is that the albanian language came from a different place. I repeat, language, not necceraly the albanian people.P.S.:
I'll tell you something: Albanians have a surviving history and they don't care about history, or to tell you who were, or to know more about these things... Albanian nationalism is 0... that's why these people who survived still remained around separated borders from the year 1913 (for the last time that we were divided), still can't make their natural state. The institutions don't care about these things too... the primary tast about us was to survive... and now is to make money, because because the poverty has been a permanent problem about us. I'm interesting about history, only because I am angry whith the poor anti-albanian propaganda which circulates from the southern Slavs and Greeks, only because they still want to tear apart the territory of the Albanians wich is left and the right of autochthony make nervous the predatory neighbors.
...but these studies about the language, culture, symbolism, antropology, history of the albanians... are done from foreign scientists (Germans, French, British, Americans, Italians, and even some truth seekers Slavic and Greek scientists). They have observed a very old language, very ancient symbolism, old race and very old model of culture at all, of these survival people that are trying to Self-isolate themself in mountains, from permanent invasions. But if for the scientists albanians are treasure, guarded from the modern deformation, the dark side of this fact is the ignorance of the survivors and cultural inclination/trend/propensity what is recorded in DNA and have to pass more than 6,000 years to alter fundamentally
Albanian history starts in the middle ages because that's the first record we have of albanians. I'm sorry to bore you but 100 year old books and a none-existant illyrian written laguage to compare to the albanian written langiage which is only 100 years old is rubbish. Glyphs and cultural traits that the entire region shares is not much either.
I'll tell you why albanian DNA is closer to greeks, because Tosk albanians are albanised greeks. Similar to southern italiants are romanized and western anatolian are turkified Greeks.
You claim entire peoples, not just Illyrians but epirots, macedons, pelasgians, based off what? geography? Please show me somethign recent and not 100 year old book pasages, and if you are going to use DNA as evidence use it objectively, because you ignore bosnian DNA all the time. If you are going to use written documents, again, you can't just ignore medival written facts. But I think you will have a hard time because albanian historical evidence is so rare because of the lack of information. This lack of information does not in fact give you the right to use other non-related pieces and just declare it albanian like history is some sort of commodity.
I guess I just bored you again though. When human beings don't understand something or lack in knowlege about a subject matter, we usually invent reasonings to explain it, so keep on dreaming my albanian friend, but the correct answer is usually the most obvious my brother.
Achievements:
Ok :) ... I think you make a progress, only because the heart is in the end of your post... step by step... come on... it's not so hard...
Now just as you quote these seperated words, try to quote the parts of books and evidences that I bring to you (and you will find all the answers what you seek) and give me contra arguments, or contra books... new books if you have haha ;)
Don't forget, I'm talking about these pages, dont make me to repeat myself... read:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page2
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page4
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page6
... about every my sentence (for the sake of the rules of communication), if not, than you'll proceed to be a spamer :S
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I read it all and I'm still not conviced the albanian language is domestic to albania. Iepotec did a good job refuting you on alot of things, and I see a pattern that you ignore his statements as well as mine in most cases. I'll give you one more peice of evidence that the albanian language is foriegn, then I'm not posting in this thread anymore.
Despotate of Epirus;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despot_of_Epirus
1204-1337
No mention of any peoples called albanians or shiptars, in the traditional albanian lands;
I guess at this point shiptars are hiding in the mountains? or they havn't migrated there yet, I think the latter.
It seems that the albanian culture came in to albania proper after the serbian conquest by dusan. But again you seem to want to nitpick midieval evidence for your liking, but I look at the whole picutre.
So I apologise that I'm just a spammer to you, but I havn't seen anything to believe that the albanian ethos is native to albania. If it was there since Illyria would be alot more greek influence but there isn't.
Good luck though my albanian-greek brother!
Achievements:
Again, the only thing that has availed in you post, is the heart :)
I knew it that you don't have guts to quote every my sentence to reply, including here and the part of studies that I transmit to you, just like your friend Iapetos... it will be a miracle to do that... because your machine of propaganda can not cover every ray of sun (the true)
...and I have more than 600 other books, that are waiting for you (:S), started from ancient writers, like Herodotus, Strabo, Homer, Pliny, Thucydides, Ptolemy.. to the year 2011... and we have thousends of claims like these:
...if there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians...
... Albanians are the only original inhabits in Balkan, the others are invaders...
...the three Shkypetar States, Illyria, Epirus and Macedonia ...
... thus pressed back, The Illyrian, Epirot and Macedonians clans consolidated themself in what geography knows as Albania...
... the albanians are the most ancient race in southeastern Europe. History and legend affort no record of their arrival in Balkan peninsula...
... from the Illyria to Albania...
... all these parts from books, you can find above posted as it should, and you pass them silently like nothing was said (epic fail)
And how can you do such a crime in the scientific level, to offend all these what i sent to you... you had the ansewer from best scientists in the world, not by me:) ...why you pass them and post here a map about Epirotes (with the poor propagand tendency that even and the cradle of Albanians to call it Greek), that all in the scientist world are knowing as albanians. Here you have many of them:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...b160e5a&type=1
Even Castrioti is greek
Search about Castrioti (Kastrioti):http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&prmdo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=Castrioti&a q=f&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&psj=1&prmdo=1&fp=82a567adc72d26 3b
{You have to make him greek or slav, whatever, because you know that he was King od Epirus and Macedonia, like albanian (Illyro-Thracian) states, and disorientate your propaganda about Epir and Macedonia
Or Fustanella
... when all the world knows that is an albanian traditional costume of the all Albanians, latter was in use only by Tosk Albanians(until today).
Search about Fustanella - http://www.google.com/#q=the%20Alban...6d7fcb6d497136 ...{"fustan"-dress in albanian (and in no other language); "funt/d"-the lower part of the dress; "an"-side (or the lower side of the dress - Fustanella), also fút (whith accent at "u"), is the name of that type of clothing, which we put forward at the bottom of the body, when we have to work something.... like freemasons today:)}...
Or... what else is left from you to make it slavic or greek ?
And ah yes, I see that you are trapped with Bosnia... even that I'll try to answer you for the fourth time about the same question, in the same way. You said that bosnians and albanians have much differences in DNA:
I said that it must be, because slavs and illyrians have much differences in DNA
... and these haplotypes that they have in common, are because south slavic, didn't replace all the illyrians at once... illyrians were pushed back slowly (where we find being wasted in the small Albania today), but some of them become slavic (illyrians did not speak slavic, right? like bosnians speak - that's why there we face the term assimilation)... that's why some bosnian haplotypes are in common whith albanians(illyrians) and the other part what is different from albanians is slavic...
It's so easy to understand whith simple historical fact, why you have to be confused even here... do you want to draw to you in paint haha or you a have a short video about little kids to learn history: See it from the the sec. 35 to the end (1.17) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0tGOdHl7_0
+
... and of course, read more in this issue: Here you have many of them:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...b160e5a&type=1
... I send you whith link, in order to not upset other members here, who know what they seek, and for what they opened this topic (and are not trapped in slavic or greek propaganda like you, only because you are a slav, or the other one was greek)...
Even that in these kind of maps that you where posted, are evident the invasions of others, like slavs in this case, from Bullgaria. I saw you tendences only in geography and I write you in this way above (even that you didnt understand as always):
"Also, about maps, you have to understand that they don't describe the autochthony always, but they are the result of expensions (invasions). We have survival history and as you go deeper in time, will see that our territory is larger. Restriction (contraction) of our territory is continuous occurrence since prehistory, we can't boast with any map, except the oldest ones that comfort us a little bit (because contraction is lower).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3356751&type=1
We have also occupations maps that there is no Albania, but this does not mean that there was no Albanian ...
In fact these are maps that invasions are documented. Even just on the basis of maps of this kind, neighbors claim territories. And not whith autochthony."
- It would be better to continue talking with you. I gave you materials from linguistical, we don't have to search the old albanian language, because albanian today is old like it was... it was preserved from these self-issolated albanians, even that there were influences from invaders - atrocities, the language didnt were romanizated or hellenizated at all... these albanian words and these small semantic units in them, are a real treasure about the scientists, and with the method of comparison and etymology, they have concluded that this language is the oldest in Europe... Here you have also the answer about your only justification, why albanian language wasen't wrote before (although many have already deciphered ancient pelasgian inscriptions whith the Albanian language), they just survive in their mountains whith their own laws coming from the antiquity and they were not free to create science. But before greek and roman era, yes, this language was written, that's why today many pelasgian inscriptions are deciphered whith this language) - Elizabeth Pyatt, from Pennsylvania State University: Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new"- http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/oldest.cfm
... in the same way, these conclusions came and for historical, symbolic, anthropological, cultural, geographic... components (you have example of all these components from the page 2,4,5 and 6 in this topic), that's proving once again the autochtony of albanians and the original link between them and ancient cultures around the Mediterranean... It will be nice to proceed talking whith you, to enable the posting of over 600 books from me, but here you like a deserter, leave your pseudo-nationalistic propaganda away, because it doesnt help anymore (especially when you have to argue something in multi components, then you are trapped)
___________________________
* Now, let's focus in the topic...
Last edited by Besir Bajrami; 15-09-11 at 20:02.
Achievements:
This is interesting also...
Albanians have a dance with two swords (snake) who fight and in the same time they dance with arms open as eagle flying (unity of male-female of snakes-'kundalini'= Cadmus & Harmonia myth)
Pyrrhic Dance = ALBANITIKO (ALBANIAN DANCE)
http://www.albpelasgian.com/dance/pyrrhic-dance.html
Pyrrhic Dance
http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=78
Albanians in Egypt- La Danse Pyrrhique- jean-leon gerome
London News: Albanian War Dance in the camp Near Dulcigno During the Feast of the Ramazan - 1880
Achievements:
Sounds like 19th century romantic history in the modern era! dream on dreamer, you're insane.
Achievements:
Trouble is, that not one thing posted here is from a primary nor a contemporary source. Anyone can write or copy and paste whatever they wish but without primary sources it will ever remain mere conjecture.
Achievements:
@ Antigone
If the ancient writers, like Herodotus, Strabo, Homer, Pliny, Thucydides, Ptolemy... are not primary sources... if historical traditions of the Greeks, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Assyrians... are not primay primary sources... if German, English, French, American, Italian... institutes of linguistics and Albanology in particular, history, and culture at all are not primary sources... if evidences in genetic and physic antropology, symbolism, national costumes, national dances, music, mythology or the culture at all... are not primary sources, if Encyclopaedia Britannica (west) or Muslim Encyclopaedia (east) - {East and west are united in this subject}... are not primary sources... if these studies (again, mostly by foreign researchers, because albanians are not interested about ancient history, and national institutions are very weak in this direction... primary task for albanians was to survive, and now is to to alleviate the permant extreme poverty):
Cent. XVI; XVII; XVIII
1509 Eneo Silvio Piccolomini - 'Cosmograhia Pii Papae in Asiase & Europe [...]'
1555 Konrad Gesner Schweizer - “Mithridas sive de differentiis linguarum”
1587 Andrea de Poza Spanierin - “Albaner nannte man früher Epiroten”
1599 G. Skaliger Franzose - 'Langues europeennes, “die epirotische Sprache von früher ist die albanische Sprache von heute'
1695 Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz - 'Correspondence on the Albanian Language';
1646-1716 Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz - “Albanische Sprache ist die alte illyrische
1769 Johan Ihre - 'Glossarium Suiogothicum'
1774 Johann Thunman - 'Untersuchungen über die Geschichte der östlichen europaeischen Völker'
1777 Niccolò Chetta - 'Tesoro di notizie su de’ Macedoni'
1746 - 1770 Hans Tunman - 'Untersuchungen über die Geschichte der östlichen europäischen Völker “Albaner sind die direkten Nachfolger der Illyrer und wurden nicht romanisiert ”
1744 - 1803 Johann G.Herde Deutscher - 'Ideen zur Philosophie der Geschichte der Menschheit'
1784 Johann G.Herde Deutsche - “Albaner Nachfolger der Illyrer”
1751-1819 Daniel Farlati dhe Jakob Koleti - Enciklopedia "Illyricum Sacrum";
1755-1826 Conrad Malte-Bruun Däne - ' Annales des Voyages de la Geographie et de l`Historie' / Paris 1809 - “Albaner Nachfolger der Illyrer”
1790-1866 Jakob Falmerajer - “Das albanische Element in Griechenland”; “Besteht eine Verbindung der Albaner und Illyrern"
1794-1881 Ami Bue - “Verbindung der Illyrer mit Albanern”
Cent. XIX
1806 Johann Christoph Adelung - 'Mithridates oder allgemeine Sprachenkunde [...]'
1807 Angelo Masci - 'Discorso sull’ origine, costume e stato attuale della nazione Albanese'
1811-1869 Johann Georg von Hahn - “Die vorfahren der Albaner sind eindeutig die Illyrer”
1812 Conrad Malte-Brun - 'Precis de la geographie universelle, [...]'
1814-1866 H.Hekard - 'Historia et Description de la Haute' - Albanie ou Guegarie “Illyrer Vorfahren der heutigen Albaner”
1816 Franz Bopp - 'Über das Conjugationsystem der Sanskritsprache [...]'
{1854 Franz Bopp - 'Ueber das Albanesische [...]'}
1817-1903 Teodor Mommsen - “Römische Geschichte”; “Die überlebenden der Illyrer sind die Albaner”
1820 François Pouquevile - 'Voyage dans le Grece'
1821-1882 D. Camarda - “Albanisch die älteste Sprache der welt”
1826 Christian Gottlob Gisner - Die alten Pelasger
1831 Giuseppe Crispi – 'Memoria sulla lingua albanese'
1835 Josef Xylander - 'Die Sprache der Albenesen oder Skipetaren'
1835 Ph. Fallmerayer - 'Welchen Einfluß hatte die Besetzung Griechenlands durch die Slawen auf das Schicksal der Stadt Athen und der Landschaft Attika? '
1847 Vincenzo Dorsa - 'Sugli albanesi, Ricerche e pensieri'
{1862 Vincenzo Dorsa - Studi etimologici della lingua albanese}
1854 Johann Georg von Hahn - 'Albanesiche Studien'
1855 Karl Reinhold - 'Noctes Pelasgicae vel symbolae ad cognoscendas dialectos Graeciae Pelasgicas'
1855 Nikolaos Nikokles - 'De albnensium sive Shkiptar origine et prosapia'
1860 Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer - 'Das albanesische Element in Griechenland'
1864 Demetrio Camarda - 'Saggio di grammatologia comparata sulla lingua albanese'
1860 Frank Miklosici - “Albanische Forschung”
1866 L.Iasmouche - 'La Peninsule Balkanique”; “Die Albaner sind die einzigen repräsentierte Nation die von den Illyrern überlebt hat”
1877 Louis Benloew- 'Grèce avant les grecs: étude linguistique e ethnographique : pélasges, léléges, sémites e ioniens'
1878 Panajoti Kupitori - 'Studime shqiptare'
1879 Pashko Vasa - 'The Truth on Albania and the Albanians, Historical and Critical Issues'
1881 Arbereshi de Martino - 'L'arpa d'un Italo-Albanese: poesie varie
1886 Francesco Tajani - 'Le istorie albenesi'
1888 Marchiano Stanislao - 'I Pelasgi e la loro lingua'
1890 Ellis Hesselmeyer - 'Die Pelasgerfrage und Ihre Losbarkeit'
1850-1900 Gustav Meyer - “Albanische Studien”
1891 Gustav Meyer - 'Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Albanesischen Sprache'
1894 Girolamo de Rada - 'Appendice alla grammatica: Antologia albanese'
1894 Eduard Schneider - 'Une race oublièe, Les Pelasges et leurs descendantes'
1896 Eduard Schneider “Albanisch ist der reinste Beweis das sie die nachkommen der Illyrer Pelasger sind”
1896 Kretchmer Paul - 'Hyrje në historinë e gjuhës Greke'
1896 Spiro Lambro - 'Emërtimet e Atikës ( athinës) dhe vënd vendosjet e Shqiptarëve'
1899 Sami Frasheri - 'Shqipëria ç'ka qënë, ç'është e ç'do të bëhet'
Cent. XX
1901 Arturo Galanti - 'L'Albania'
1904 1906 Peck Vilmos – 'Okori Lexicon'
Gregorovius Ferdinand; 'Historia e qyteteve të Athinës në mesjetë'
1906 G. Hertzberg - 'Historia e greqisë nga mbarimi lashtësisë deri në ditët e sotme'
1907 John Linton Myres - 'A History of the Pelasgian Theory'
1907 Mihal Lambrinidhu - 'Shqiptarët në greqi dhe në poloponez'
1911 Norbert Jokl - "Studien zur albanesischen Etymologie und Wortbildung"
1912 - 1918 Milan von Šufflay-“Mediaeval Albania”; “Srbi i Albanci”; Dr. Milan von Šufflay, Dr.Ludovicus de Thallóczy, Dr.Constantinus Jireček - “Acta et diplomata res Albaniae mediae aetatis illustrantia”;
1912 Iakovo Thomopoulos "Pelasgika"
1913 Nicolae Densusianu - 'Dacia Preistorica'
1914 George Fred Williams - 'Shqiptaret'
1917 Donald MacKenzie - 'Myths of Crete and Pre-Hellenic Europe'
1922 Agostino Ribecco - 'Vetustà della lingua albanese e sua importanza nella spiegazione del mondo antico'
1923 Norbert Jokl - "Linguistisch-kulturhistorische Untersuchungen aus dem Bereiche des Albanischen"
1924 Norbert Jokl - "Ilirët, shqiptarët, frigiatët" dhe "Trakët dhe Shqiptarët"
1924 Luigi Ugolini - 'L’antica Albania nelle ricerche archeologiche'
1934 John Arthur Munro - 'Pelasgians and Ionians'
1936 Leonid Ndrenika - 'Pelasgi e la loro lingua: cenni storici e filologici'
1940 Michele Gervasio - 'Albania Antica'
1944 Jakov Milaj - 'Raca Shqiptare'
1947 Valentin Ditjakin - 'Soviet science of the origin of the Slavs'
1950 Milan Budimir - 'The Greeks and Pelasti';
{1956 Milan Budimir - 'Pelasto – Slavica'}
1952 Albert van Windekens - 'Le Pelasgique Essaisur une langue indo-europenne prehellenique'
{1960 Albert van Windekens - 'Etudes Pelasgiques'}
1959 Julius Pokorny - 'Indogermanisches Etimologisches Worterbuch'
1960 Fritz Lochner-Hüttenbach - 'Die Pelasger'
{1960 Giuseppe Catapano - "Puthia (Il Bacio) e Rina (Irene)"
1943 Giuseppe Catapano - "L'esaltazione della Besa Albanese nell'antica rapsodia Costantino e Garentina"
1966 Giuseppe Catapano - "Lucera nei secoli"
1971 Giuseppe Catapano - "Contestazione contestata: parole di un credente"
1982 Giuseppe Catapano - Elena (Gesù; Menelao Abbandonato, Etj.)
1983 Giuseppe Catapano - 'Thot Parlava Albanese'
1984 Giuseppe Catapano - 'Faraon, la nostra stirpe' (Antichità della lingua albanese)'
1995 Giuseppe Catapano - 'Ramseti i madh ishte i gjakut tonë'
1996 Giuseppe Catapano - 'Shqiptarët, Popull i ndarë'
1989 Giuseppe Catapano - "Derisa të vihet drejtësia në Kosovën shqiptare të persekutuar nga Serbet"
1990 Giuseppe Catapano - La Venuta degli Albanesi in Italia (art. Il Corriere di Roma)
1991 Giuseppe Catapano - "L'ombra di Hamza sull'Albania"}
1961 Zacharie Mayani - 'The Etruscans Begin to Speak'
1961 Peter Robert Frank - 'Die Antiken Münzen Von Epirus'
{1973 Zacharie Mayani - 'Fundi i misterit Etrusk'}
1964 Konda Spiro - 'Shqiptarët dhe problemi Pellazgjik'
1965 D.A.Hester - 'Pelasgian a new Indo-European language?'
1966 Tajar Zavalani - 'Histori e Shqipnis'
1966 L.S.Abel - 'Fifth Century B.C., Concepts of the Pelasgians'
1965 S.Anamali, F.Prendi, S.Islami, H.Ceka – 'Iliria te autorët antikë'
1971 Skender Anamali - 'Përmbledhje artikujsh arkeologjike për historinë e lashtë të Shqipërisë'
{2009 Skender Anamali - 'Amantia, qytet i Ilirisë Jugore'}
1975 James Mellaart - 'The Neolithic of the Near East'
1977 Vladimir Ivanov Georgiev - 'Trakite i tehnijat ezik'
1977 Michael Sakellariou - 'Peuple préhelléniques d'origine indo-européennee'
1978 Arshi Pipa-“Folklori shqiptar:Struktura dhe gjinia”
1979 Fritz Schachermeyr - 'Die Ägäische Frühzeit [...]'
1979 Robert Buck - 'A History of Boeotia'
1979 Edgar Furnee - 'Study to the East Mediterranean Subtrat in Addition to an Attempt to a New Pelasgian Theory'
1980 James Pandeli - 'Oh Albania, My Poor Albania'
{2003.James Pandeli - 'The Language Of God'}
1981 Irnerio Gnudi - 'Pelasgi, Fenici, Etruschi, [...]'
1983 Aleksandr Iosifovič Nemirovskij - 'Etruski: ot mira k istorii'
1984 Akaki Urushadze - 'The Country of the Enchantress Media'
1984 Nermin Vlora Falaschi - 'Pelasgi, iliri, etruschi, albanesi'
{1989 Nermin Vlora Falaschi - Etrusco lingua viva}
{1997 Nemrin Vlora Falaschi - 'Prona gjuhësore dhe gjentike: Probabilitet e monogjenezës embrionale të fjalëve'}
{1998 Nermin Vlora Falaschi - 'Pellazget-iliret-etrusket-shqiptaret: Qyteterime me te lashta mesdhetare'}
1985 Rismag Gordeziani - 'Pre-Grecian and Georgian'
1986 Alexander Fol - 'Trakijskijat orfizam'
2008 Hansjörg Frommer - "Die Illyrer 4000 Jahre europäische Geschichte"
1988 Pierre Cabanes - “Les Illyriens de Bardylis a Genthios”
1989 E. B. French. - 'Archaeology in Greece (Archaeological Reports, No. 36.)'
1990 Dhimiter Pilika - 'Pellazgët, origjina jonë e mohuar'
1990 Robert D'Angely - 'Enigma'
{1990 Robert D'Angely - 'The Illyrians Thracians & Homer'}
{1998 Robert D'Angely - 'Comparative Albanian Grammar'}
1990 Ludwig Klages - 'I Pelasgi'
1994 Eqrem Çabej - Shqiptaret midis Perendmit dhe Lindjes
1994 Pierre Cabanes - 'Albanie, le pays des aigles'
1995 Edwin Jacques - Shqiptaret
1996 Vladimir Xhelaj - Zgjidhja e enigmës së misterit etrusk
{2009 Vladimir Xhelaj - 'Në origjinë të kombit shqiptar dhe të gjuhës së tij: Arbëria dhe arbërit; ilirët dhe gjuha e tyre; etj.'}
1997 Nezir Myrta - 'Iliristika'
1998 John Wilkes - 'Iliret'
1999 Shaban Demiraj - 'Prejardhja e shqiptarëve në dritën e dëshmive të gjuhës shqipe'
1983 Aristidh Kola – 'Arvanitasit dhe prejardhja e grekeve'
{1989 Aristidh Kola - 'Gjuha e Perendive'}
{2000 Aristidh Kola - 'Zeusi pellazgjik dhe mashtrimi indoeuropian'}
Cent. XXI
2000 Preloc Margilaj - 'Ilirët flasin shqip, Shqiptarët flasin ilirisht'
2000 Mexhit Kokalari - 'Bijtë e shpatës shqiptare'
{2001 Mexhit Kokalari - 'Epiri, kryeqëndra e qytetërimit antik në Evropë'}
{2001 Mexhit Kokalari - 'Gjëmon historia e shqiptarëve'}
{2005 Mexhit Kokalari - 'Teuta, Mbretëresha e Ilirisë'}
{2005 Mexhit Kokalari - 'Aleksandri i Madh'}
2001 Georges Castellan - 'Histoire de l'Albanie et des Albanais'
2001 Jean Faucounau - 'The Proto-Ionians: Story of a Forgotten People'
{2002 Shaban Demiraj - 'Gramatikë historike e gjuhës shqipe'}
{2004 Shaban Demiraj - 'Gjuhësi ballkanike'}
{2006 Shaban Demiraj - 'Origin of the Albanians: linguistically investigated'}
{2008 Shaban Demiraj - 'Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët'}
2004 Andreas Lippert -" Die Illyrer. Katalog zu einer Ausstellung von archäologischen Funden der albanischen Eisenzeit (12. - 4. Jh. v. Chr.)"
2005 Rrok Zojzi - “Gjurmët e një kalendari primitiv në popullin tonë”; “Studime mbi veshjet kombëtare”; “Traditat e lundrimit në Shqipëri”; “Mbi të drejtën kanunore të popullit shqiptar”; “Gjurmë arkaike në veshjet tradicionale të popullit shqiptar”; “Arti popullor në Shqipëri”; “Studime për Çamërinë”; “Studime mbi luginën e Shkumbinit”; “Përmbledhje për Labërinë”;
2005 Jean Faucounau - 'The Greek origins to the Bronze Age'}
2002 Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer, Eds. - 'Albanian Identities, Myth and History'
2002 Aleksander Stipçeviq - 'Iliret'
2002 Jaho Brahaj - 'Flamuri i kombit Shqiptar'
2003 Muzafer Korkuti - 'Parailiret, Iliret, Arberit'
2003 Mathieu Aref - 'Albania or the incredible odyssey of preHellenic people'
{2004 Mathieu Aref - 'Greece: (Mycéniens = Pélasges) or the solution of an enigma'}
2004 Edward Bulwer Lytton – 'Athens, Its Rise and Fall, [...]'
2004 Niko Stylos - "Historia e shenjtë e Arvanitëve";
2004 Niko Stylos - "MARKO BOÇARI"
2005 Petro Zheji - 'Shqipja dhe Sankritishtja'
2005 Enzo Gatti – Iliret
2006 Elena Kocaqi – 'Albanet me fame mijevjeçare'
{2007 Elena Kocaqi - 'Roli pellazgo-ilir në krijimin e kombeve dhe gjuhëve evropiane'}
{2008 Elena Kocaqi - 'Shqipja çelësi i gjuhëve indoevropiane'}
{2009 Elena Kocaqi - 'Planet për zhdukjen e shqiptarëve: si u krijua Greqia dhe Serbia në trojet shqiptare'}
2006 Arsim Spahiu - 'Pellazgët dhe ilirët në Greqinë e vjetër'
2006 Arthur Evans - 'Ancient Illyria: An Archaeological Exploration'
2007 Ignacy Ryszard Danka - 'Pelazgowie, autochtoni Hellady, [...]'
2007 Fiqiret Barbullushi - 'Akili, Odiseja... nuk ishin helenë [...]'
{2009 Fiqiret Barbullushi - 'Akili dhe Agamemnoni'}
2007 Alberto Areddu – 'Le origini albanesi della civiltà in Sardegna'
2008 Ali Eltari - 'Pellazgët, krijuesit e qytetërimit botëror'
2008 Pjeter Nikolla - 'E vërteta e mitologjisë iliro-pellazge'
2008 Ibrahim Kelmendi - 'Ilirët në protohistori : origjina, kultura dhe përhapja e tyre'
2008 Selim Islami - 'Historia e ilirëve: përmbledhje punimesh'
2008 Shpresa Omer - 'Në gjurmët e pellazgjishtes: një krahasim etimologjik i fjalëve të gjermanishtes me ato të shqipes'
2008 Artan Haxhi - 'Etnogjeneza e gjuhës shqipe: përsiatje'
2008 Kapllan Burovic - 'Who are Albanians?: studies into the origin of Albanians'
2009 Nijazi Muhamedi-“Maqedonia shqiptare”;
2009 Luftulla & Liliana Peza - 'Dritë e re mbi pellazgët dhe gjuhën e tyre'
2009 A F Kocaqi - 'Shqipja Pellazge'
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Other online books:
http://www.scribd.com/document_collections/2646357
... are not primary sources... and if a living evidence like humans, are not primary or contemporary sources... than what is ?!
Propaganda ?! ... or what YOU think... can be primary source ?!
__________________________________________________ ___
@ Elias2
Haha... you are such a manipulator ;) When these the same words were in quotes from the books and institutions like Encyclopaedia Britannica and other eminent scientist, you didn't have guts to reply from their, and now when I write them in these format, you reply only that piece, pretending that these are my words... in the other post you will copy only one letter from my posts, to get out of situations with words acrobatic.
P.S: I thought you deserted your propaganda, why you post again :P (By the way, there are waiting too many evidences if you want to give any contra argument, from books (studies), not just dry words.
Let's proceed...
Dardanian women:
+ ancient artifact from Vinca culture (or Goddess on the throne) and modern (still ancient:) albanian dress from Kosovo (part of ancient Dardania)
If we pay attention to the tradition, even today in albanian culture, when the girl become e women, when she get married (albanians get married only in Thursday and Sunday), she have to stay just like this, in that position (folded), like the mysterious artifact there.
Thursday is womens day. For the bride they say: "U bë Nuse Venuse" - "You become e Bride a Venus"... alb.:"Ve"- eng.:"Egg" - alb.:"Nuse" - eng.:"bride"... Venus)
Also, when in "the first night" she have to stay whith her man, tradition requires that she have to sit in the symbol of the half of Cosmic Egg (albanian white hood - "Plis" or "Qeleshe", is only a man cap), turned back, and to put in the head the another half, just like the symbol of Zeus here:
So, like the seed that came from the Cosmic Egg or the Egg of the Worlds and brought the life, and the Bride "emerges" from the Egg and bring life in that house.
In fact the entire albanian national dress represents that pelasgic religion, or symbolizes God/Almighty Creator.
Even the sleeves of the dress (Guna) that don't have to be wear but to connect behind, symbolizing comb / wings of divinity. For old religion (or better to say, from that original religion, what was copied latter from other cultures, especially from the Semitic peoples) says that when the Creator created life from the cosmic egg/egg of worlds, he was presented with comb/wings ...
This kind of theory of creation is writen somehow and in the Bible indireclty in Genesis.
Here you can see the symbolism of Comb/divine wings in albanian dress:
See more in page 5 in this topic about some other albanian national costumes and their symbolism:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5
__________________________________________________ _____________________
+
Info +
Eleusina (Greek: Ελευσίνα, Ancient/Katharevousa: Ἐλευσίς Eleusis) is a town and municipality about 20 km NW of Athens. It is located near the northernmost end of the Saronic Gulf and is the seat of administration of West Attica Prefecture. It is best known for having been the site of the Eleusinian Mysteries, the most famous religious center of ancient Greece.[2] It was also the birth place of Aeschylus, one of the three great tragedians of antiquity. See also Metanira
Or: Greece -- Description and travel; Greece -- History - M'Clymont, James Alexander, 1848-; Fulleylove, John, 1847-1908
.. we continue with the remains of the Minoan culture Minoane: Its the same dress in use only by albanians, named: Xhumbleta (nearly 4000 years old)... see more in page 5 in this topic about that dress and symbolism what is in use in them:
+
Women Dressed in Albanian Style Perform Megara's Easter Dance Photographic Print by Maynard Owen Wil:
http://www.allposters.co.uk/gallery....6&CID=ED08C621
Aegean island dance
And: Albanian dancers in the courtyard of the Monastery in Dardania or today Kosovo
Info + Orthodox monasteries in Kosova: http://www.albpelasgian.com/430.html
Last edited by Besir Bajrami; 18-09-11 at 00:07.
Achievements:
@ Elias2
Haha... you are such a manipulator ;) When these the same words were in quotes from the books and institutions like Encyclopaedia Britannica and other eminent scientist, you didn't have guts to reply from their, and now when I write them in these format, you reply only that piece, pretending that these are my words... in the other post you will copy only one letter from my posts, to get out of situations with words acrobatic.
P.S: I thought you deserted your propaganda, why you post again :P (By the way, there are waiting too many evidences if you want to give any contra argument, from books (studies), not just dry words.
Let's proceed:
Ancient artifact from Vinca culture (or Goddess on the throne) and modern (still ancient:) albanian dress from Kosovo (part of ancient Dardania)
If we pay attention to the tradition, even today in albanian culture, when the girl become e women, when she get married (albanians get married only in Thursday and Sunday), she have to stay just like this, in that position (folded), like the mysterious artifact there.
Thursday is womens day. For the bride they say: "U bë Nuse Venuse" - "You become e Bride a Venus"... alb.:"Ve"- eng.:"Egg" - alb.:"Nuse" - eng.:"bride"... Venus)
Also, when in "the first night" she have to stay whith her man, tradition requires that she have to sit in the symbol of the half of Cosmic Egg (albanian white hood - "Plis" or "Qeleshe", is only a man cap), turned back, and to put in the head the another half, just like the symbol of Zeus here:
So, like the seed that came from the Cosmic Egg or the Egg of the Worlds and brought the life, and the Bride "emerges" from the Egg and bring life in that house.
In fact the entire albanian national dress represents that pelasgic religion, or symbolizes God/Almighty Creator.
Even the sleeves of the dress (Guna) that don't have to be wear but to connect behind, symbolizing comb / wings of divinity. For old religion (or better to say, from that original religion, what was copied latter from other cultures, especially from the Semitic peoples) says that when the Creator created life from the cosmic egg/egg of worlds, he was presented with comb/wings ...
This kind of theory of creation is writen somehow and in the Bible indireclty in Genesis.
Here you can see the symbolism of Comb/divine wings in albanian dress:
See more in page 5 in this topic about some other albanian national costumes and their symbolism:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5
Achievements:
I do not see any reference to albania from Strabo unless you are talking about Albania in the caucus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ep...rn_borders.jpg
I do see epirus graeca for albania , which is greek illyrian which is new epirus ( conquered by the epirotes ) and NOT illyrian
PURE illyrian seems to E-v13 and only is between modern greece and modern montenegro borders
Illyrians only cremated their dead and placed weapons with the cremation.
Achievements:
A primary source is an eyewitness or first hand account, written or recorded AT THE TIME or SOON AFTER the event in question. Sorry, but not one thing you have listed is a primary source, so you have no definite proof of your claims.
A contemporary source is an account, written or recorded by a third party AT THE TIME or SOON AFTER the event in question. They are used to verify the primary source account.
At best, all you have given as way of proof are secondary or tertiary sources and written centuries or millenia after. If you can't understand this very basic first step in reading and evaluating history then I'd suggest you begin with this http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e...08-3010-e.html .
Last edited by Antigone; 18-09-11 at 07:24. Reason: spelling
Achievements:
so what is your opinion about the argument that Besir Bajrami showed us about the origin of Ilyrian name , what do you think is it true? because you told me that you know the truth , if it isnt then tell me the right answer ? if you have time and know it of course ...
Achievements:
hey brothers can anyone ,who think that albanians are not ilyrians, tell me some arguments that put in doubt mine which are very simple one and with a primary source (i think so because greek know it more than me :P but all is relative ) :
do you know that the albanian buildings are build in the same place where the ilyrians buildings were ? do you know that the ancient towns of ilyria are in the same place where were build the towns of arberia (that are also called albanians ), that under the the medieval walls of arberia are the ancient walls of ilyria ? do you know that they have the same culture , tradition, costums etc, these means that albanians are ilyrians , and for sure i can tell that they have the same language as some writing ( a primary source ) found in mesapia in south eastern of italia near ilyria , who can give me arguments that can put these in doubt ?
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