Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

[zanipolo]

As far as I know, before arrival of Slavs it was Helmus.

I've asked you a question and you didn't answer on that.

I'll repeat: is that the region with the highest level of I2a1-Din-S in the world?

unsure on I2a1-din-S, but HUM was inlands, Zeta was towards the coast and bocce da cattaro was on the sea. cattaro and zeta became montenegro.
The highest according to 2007 results ( slavic and austrian studies) of that hg was the Autariates (illyrian tribe) with 63.8%. the lived in south bosnia and montenegro ( today's bordes) , so it would be Hum or what you call Helmus ( never heard of it).

What are you trying to say

Edit- I cannot find Helmus, but HUM yes
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA18&dq=hum+bosnia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-AvCT83ME7CaiAei_-yMCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hum%20bosnia&f=false


below is the original hum
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachlumia
[/URL]

 

[Gosh]

unsure on I2a1-din-S, but HUM was inlands, Zeta was towards the coast and bocce da cattaro was on the sea. cattaro and zeta became montenegro.
The highest according to 2007 results ( slavic and austrian studies) of that hg was the Autariates (illyrian tribe) with 63.8%. the lived in south bosnia and montenegro ( today's bordes) , so it would be Hum or what you call Helmus ( never heard of it).

What are you trying to say

Edit- I cannot find Helmus, but HUM yes
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA18&dq=hum+bosnia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-AvCT83ME7CaiAei_-yMCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hum%20bosnia&f=false


below is the original hum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachlumia

In Russian "hill" = halm, that's the same as helm. I'm not sure why author from Wiki speaks about some Vlachs but not about Slavs.

You're unsure about the most important thing which we discuss here. I2a1-Din-S are younger branch of Din tree, It doesn't exists in today's Romania (and not only Romania but in all Slavs except central part of southern Slavs).

How someone can talk about genetics avoiding to understand this fact?

 

[Yetos]

In Russian "hill" = halm, that's the same as helm. I'm not sure why author from Wiki speaks about some Vlachs but not about Slavs.

You're unsure about the most important thing which we discuss here. I2a1-Din-S are younger branch of Din tree, It doesn't exists in today's Romania (and not only Romania but in all Slavs except central part of southern Slavs).

How someone can talk about genetics avoiding to understand this fact?

Helmus exist also in Greek as Χελμος Ηelmos and does not mean hill but Helmet or a kind of shell protection, Greek word Κελυφος καλυμα virb καλυπτω

the word is not Greek but exist as name for one mountain
it is considered as either south Slavic or as Thracian comparing Zelm = Helm in Dacian language

case of Germanic or Celtic is not mentioned in Lexicons of Greek geography toponyms


a strange notice is that the top of the mountain is named Οστρακια which in Greek means turtle-Shell
the ancient Greek name of the mountain is Αροανια Aroania and the modern is Chelmos Χελμος notice that Greek letter x officially is written as ch while it sounds as h in 'how'

Greek Wiki is giving the word as Slavic but gives meaning of helmet

ενώ το νεώτερο όνομά της Χελμός είναι σλαβικής προέλευσης και σημαίνει στρατιωτικό κράνος

 

[zanipolo]

In Russian "hill" = halm, that's the same as helm. I'm not sure why author from Wiki speaks about some Vlachs but not about Slavs.

please link reference to this helmus

You're unsure about the most important thing which we discuss here. I2a1-Din-S are younger branch of Din tree, It doesn't exists in today's Romania (and not only Romania but in all Slavs except central part of southern Slavs).

How someone can talk about genetics avoiding to understand this fact?

I gave you the genetics, .........people who speak slav are not always slavic and should never be treated as slavs, because this distorts history.

again for you....The highest I2a1-Din-s according to 2007 results ( slavic and austrian studies) of ancient HG was the Autariates (illyrian tribe) with 63.8%. the lived in south bosnia and montenegro ( today's bordes). They originated further north below the danube, but where pushed southward by the advancing celts

 

[Gosh]

Helmus exist also in Greek as Χελμος Ηelmos and does not mean hill but Helmet or a kind of shell protection, Greek word Κελυφος καλυμα virb καλυπτω

the word is not Greek but exist as name for one mountain
it is considered as either south Slavic or as Thracian comparing Zelm = Helm in Dacian language

case of Germanic or Celtic is not mentioned in Lexicons of Greek geography toponyms


a strange notice is that the top of the mountain is named Οστρακια which in Greek means turtle-Shell
the ancient Greek name of the mountain is Αροανια Aroania and the modern is Chelmos Χελμος notice that Greek letter x officially is written as ch while it sounds as h in 'how'

Greek Wiki is giving the word as Slavic but gives meaning of helmet

ενώ το νεώτερο όνομά της Χελμός είναι σλαβικής προέλευσης και σημαίνει στρατιωτικό κράνος

It is always a lot of problems with old Greek transcriptions and various names.

Not so many people knows that name Balkan exists only for 200 years. Before of that Balkans were Haemus, Helmus etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemus_Mons

In any case, word is IE and probably given by Thracians.

 

[Gosh]

please link reference to this helmus

I did that in previous post

I gave you the genetics, .........people who speak slav are not always slavic and should never be treated as slavs, because this distorts history.

That's for sure. Not only Slavs but all modern nations. Hungarians are (for example) much more Slavs than (let's say) Bulgarians. Romanians are 1/2 Slavs. Even modern Albanians are about 20-25% Slavs (by origins, of course).

again for you....The highest I2a1-Din-s according to 2007 results ( slavic and austrian studies) of ancient HG was the Autariates (illyrian tribe) with 63.8%. the lived in south bosnia and montenegro ( today's bordes). They originated further north below the danube, but where pushed southward by the advancing celts

You're continuing to make the same mistake all this time. Fact that some Illyrian tribe lived on some place doesn't means that modern population belongs to descendants of that tribe.

According to Kenneth Nortdvedt, haplogroup I2a1b-Din is "born" about 2500 ago in central Europe. Today we can observe remains of I2a1-Din-S in the region of southern Poland and Eastern Germany. That's the same place described by historians as place where ancient Croats and Serbs lived before they migration to the south.

 

[Gosh]

OMG..... I didn't read this topic from the begining.

PROUD TO BE BOSNIAN FOR 25.000 YEARS.

We have proof, fact and thruth on our side.

Bosnia-Herzegovina is one country and one poeple and we will forever live.

Goodbye Serbsko-Hrvatska propaganda
1850-1995

BOSONA LIVES FOREVER

PROUD TO BE BOSNIAN FOR 25.000 YEARS

The thruth is on our side.

Bosnians are Illyrians they have 50% of I2a (Illyrian)
and the Name Bosnia is real ancient Illyrian Name BOSONA.

The Propaganda of our Neighbourgs is Fall,
we are not Serbs and not Croats we are Bosnians
and the Bosnian christians are Bosnians too but they
are victims of the centauryold Propaganda of our Neighbourgs
and the DNA Tests have shown that all Bosnians are very Similar
and more similar than with croatia or Serbia.

The Truth will EVER Win

This is a nice example which shows what a flaming nationalistic propaganda can do from somebody.

Eupedia is fulfilled with the articles of this kind. And the most interesting thing, writers aren't immediately banned.

 

[Templar]

This is a nice example which shows what a flaming nationalistic propaganda can do from somebody.

Maybe that person's info was propaganda, but mine wasn't. My claim is very moderate and fair: Medieval Bosnians did not consider themselves Croat and Serb.

 

[zanipolo]

You're continuing to make the same mistake all this time. Fact that some Illyrian tribe lived on some place doesn't means that modern population belongs to descendants of that tribe.

According to Kenneth Nortdvedt, haplogroup I2a1b-Din is "born" about 2500 ago in central Europe. Today we can observe remains of I2a1-Din-S in the region of southern Poland and Eastern Germany. That's the same place described by historians as place where ancient Croats and Serbs lived before they migration to the south.

is vienna central europe, is northern pannonia central europe? ...these are ancient illyrian lands

where is central europe? .........only czech ?

switzerland, north italy, tyrol, austria, bavaria etc etc are all central europe .............i do not know what you define central europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
depends who you talk to

 

[Gosh]

They are, but... where's Din-S there?!?

 

[Diurpaneus]

Romanians are 1/2 Slavs

Doc,wait a minute.
I don't deny Slavic ancestry for Romanians.
Slavs setlled in Romania.
And i don't mind;on the contrary.
BUT, PLEASE!!!!! 50% , THIS IS WAY OUT OF LINE!

Even supposing I2a1b Din as a whole is Slavic only.
Autosomal DNA is by far a much more consistent analysis.
And there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between Romanians and Northern Slavs.
Romanians are close to Serbs,Bulgarians,Albanians and Macedonians.
But that's because of a common Thracian(including Dacians and Getae) heritage.



True ,Romanian has a lot of Slavic(Bulgarian) borrowings due to Bulgarian Empire.
Slavic/Bulgarian was used in the Orthodox liturgy and as a chancelerry language .
But, ROMANIAN IS LATIN SPOKEN BY THE THRACIANS.


http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

 

[Gosh]

I wrote quite a long answer on your post but it unfortunately disappeared. I don't intend to write them again.

In short, when I said "Slavic", that means I2a1+R1a.

 

[Eldritch]

check the link near the bottom, it states the Ydna of the "9 main illyrian tribes"

http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri-english text version.pdf

Obviously i can't take this seriously, they can measure modern populations and then reach some imaginary results.
The only way to know which was main marker among Illyrians is to test bones plus I2a1b has expanded from Moldova.

 

[LeBrok]

I wrote quite a long answer on your post but it unfortunately disappeared.

That happened to me many times when using Internet Explorer with windows 7. Switch to Google Chrome, works great every time.

 

[Eldritch]

hey, I've been doing some research but I can't find how Bosnians look like. Sorry for my ignorance people, but I'd really like to know and I hope you can help me out. Just physical appearance in general, and it would also be good if you told me about Croatians and Serbians appearance too. thanks! (and sorry for my english)

Overwhelmingly brunet people.. with a fair share of light eyes

Here it is a chapter from Coon:

Bosnia consists of the six provinces, Bihac, Banjaluka, Tuzla, Travnik, Sarajevo, and Mostar, which lie between western Croatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, and the Slavonian plain. The southernmost province, Mostar, includes, the territory known as Herzegovina, which lies nearest to Montenegro. The Bosnians serve racially as an approach to the nucleus of Dinaric giantism in Montenegro.Tuzla, in the northeast, has a mean stature of 171 cm.; Bihac and Banjaluca, in the northwest, of 172 cm.; in Travnik and parts of Mostar it rises to 173 cm., in Sarajevo to 174 cm., and in Herzegovina to 175-176 cm., approaching the Montenegrin level. The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84). The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavicand a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.
In hair and eye color the Bosnians are intermediate between Croatians and Serbs; they are darkest in the northeast, and fairest in the regions nearest Montenegro. Since they form but an extension of the Montenegrin nucleus, it will suffice here to point out their near identity with the inhabitants of that former kingdom, and to leave a detailed description for the latter.

 

[albanopolis]

I did that in previous post



That's for sure. Not only Slavs but all modern nations. Hungarians are (for example) much more Slavs than (let's say) Bulgarians. Romanians are 1/2 Slavs. Even modern Albanians are about 20-25% Slavs (by origins, of course).



You're continuing to make the same mistake all this time. Fact that some Illyrian tribe lived on some place doesn't means that modern population belongs to descendants of that tribe.

According to Kenneth Nortdvedt, haplogroup I2a1b-Din is "born" about 2500 ago in central Europe. Today we can observe remains of I2a1-Din-S in the region of southern Poland and Eastern Germany. That's the same place described by historians as place where ancient Croats and Serbs lived before they migration to the south.

Southern Albanians appear to be around 15% Slavic. Albanians in Macedonia, Kosovo, North Albania about 2%. I am taking as an etalon of being slavic the haplogrouo I2a. R1a does not appear to be exclusively slavic since Germans, Norway hace a large size of R1a.

 

[kamani]

Southern Albanians appear to be around 15% Slavic.

That's what I thought too for a while, but then I discovered that most of the 15% I2a in southern Albanians is I2a2b, a rare nordic/celtic Hg. So it seems they're not much slavic, but rather a bit "germanic". The devil is in the details...

 

[Eldritch]

That's what I thought too for a while, but then I discovered that most of the 15% I2a in southern Albanians is I2a2b, a rare nordic/celtic Hg. So it seems they're not much slavic, but rather a bit "germanic". The devil is in the details...

Are you sure about this?

 

[kamani]

Are you sure about this?

99% sure, but we need a published study for proof. The few published studies for south-albania are decieving because they say only I2a without going into subclades. I started looking at online maps of people who have shared their Haplogroup, and there is a strong I2a2b area between south-Albania/Macedonia/Northern Greece.

 

[Eldritch]

99% sure, but we need a published study for proof. The few published studies for south-albania are decieving because they say only I2a without going into subclades. I started looking at online maps of people who have shared their Haplogroup, and there is a strong I2a2b area between south-Albania/Macedonia/Northern Greece.

Post those maps.