Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

ukaj said:
If you look at the Andis people of caucasus they are a avar people we know avars migrated around that area of bosnia an they have a high rate of 12a halpgroup also.infact their genetics are I2a at 24.5 an j1 at 36.7%.this could be a possible that avar brang with them I2a,Because of the low percent of I2a in them could have many meanings,,1 avars migrated before they were assimulated by the surounding genetics R,,even these people Russians (Adygea they have 24% I2a.I2a2 i think is a drift from i2a
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Slavs
In the first part of the 6th century, in the Germanic, Langobardian-Gepidian period, neither written nor archaeological sources refer to the presence of Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Presumably their immigration into some of its territories dates only from the beginning of Avar rule. The Slavs soon integrated into Avar society. According to Byzantine sources, they too fought on the Avar side during the siege of Constantinople in 626. Cremation cemeteries and settlements belonging to Slavic groups which arrived across the passes of the Eastern Carpathians are well known in the territory of Transylvania (western Romania). Slavic people settled on the territory of former Pannonia in three major groups: in northeastern Pannonia (near Budapest), in the valley of the river Zala (near Lake Balaton) and around Pécs (southwestern Hungary). The qualitatively different find material from these geographically distinct areas lends itself in varying degrees to the ethnic identification of these Slavs. In the valley of the river Zala, mixed-rite cemeteries contain the best examples of the ancestral cremation rite of the Slavs (at Kehida and Zalakomár). The process of cultural change is well reflected by the fact that the traditional urned or unurned cremation rite existed side-by-side with the rite of cremation deposited in an Avarian-style shaft-grave (at Pókaszepetk). Jewellery, beads and small costume accessories were uncovered in the cremation burials. It is even more difficult to distinguish Slavic from East European barbarian people merely on the basis of the find material, when the burial rite is of no help. From some Avar cemeteries in western Hungary we know objects resembling those associated with other tribes of Eastern European nomads and Slavs, such as the Antae: bow-brooches, wire ornaments, trapezoid plate pendants, bracelets with flaring ends (at Oroszlány and Pécs-Köztemető). In these cases we cannot really be sure about the people who wore them.
 
ukaj said:
just throwing this out their,,these are the people with I2a http://youtu.be/KobaMVC9wYk
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Source? Yunusbayev 2011 indicates ~2% I2a among the Adyghe, Cherkessians, and Kabardin. They're rather G2a dominant, with high J2a and R1a as well. It's possible (although difficult to determine without STRs) that the little I2a in them is entirely Russian drift.
 
zanipolo said:
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
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I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.
 
sparkey said:
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.
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I2a is not native to the Adriatic no way in world...its not possiable it more of a inland genetic rather coastal
 
sparkey said:
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.
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first was a jest.....regarding the void of J2 in maciano map in old illyrian and replaced identically with I2 ............someone said IJ union must of split somewhere.

In regards to other, the adriatic I2a was due to Robb italian-illyrian connection .......via Sardinia ( that is moving west to east ).........I will need to search my links in eupedia.

In regards to I2c1.........as you know this is my ggmothers fathers marker..........noted as coming via black forest area
 
ukaj said:
I2a is not native to the Adriatic no way in world...its not possiable it more of a inland genetic rather coastal
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why is it inland?
 
Obviously I2a people were not maritime, and had none of those skills, or otherwise they'd spread to both sides of Adriatic. That's why the inland assumption is more logical.
 
Ike said:
Obviously I2a people were not maritime, and had none of those skills, or otherwise they'd spread to both sides of Adriatic. That's why the inland assumption is more logical.
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agreed,
It does make more sence saying that I is on the coast of england an all through that,but cant see it being native to med coast of bosnia.
 
sparkey said:
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.
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missed this , so

I was asking where was the IJ split ?

Terry robb states I2* as adriatic and not franco-iberian, but associated with Baden culture
 
Templar said:
None of the history excerpts that you pasted have anything to do with this. Your are saying that people in Herzegovina look the closest to Ghegs, but then how come people in Herzegovina have the highest rates of I2? The vast majority of Slavs in the world are R1a (ethnic Russians of which there are over 133 million in the world, ethnic Poles of which there are over 60 million in the world, etc), it is only a tiny fraction of Southern Slavs which are mostly I2: people in Dalmatia (population of around 900,000), Herzegovina (population of around 400,000), and mountainous parts of Bosnia (less than 3 million). Notice how the most isolated and mountainous parts are the ones with the highest rates of I2. The flat-lands to the North which were the most exposed to conquest are mostly R1a and R1B.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
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What im saying is i see their is a very small population who are of albanian blood.
 
Templar said:
The vast majority of Slavs in the world are R1a (ethnic Russians of which there are over 133 million in the world, ethnic Poles of which there are over 60 million in the world, etc), it is only a tiny fraction of Southern Slavs which are mostly I2: people in Dalmatia (population of around 900,000), Herzegovina (population of around 400,000), and mountainous parts of Bosnia (less than 3 million). Notice how the most isolated and mountainous parts are the ones with the highest rates of I2. The flat-lands to the North which were the most exposed to conquest are mostly R1a and R1B.
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But now we know TMRCA and age of that I2, and we can assume that Byzantines were right and that Balkan was really empty before Slavic migration in the 6th century?
 
As far as I know, there is very little archaeological evidence of Slavic culture in the Balkans from 6 or 7 century. Expansion I2a din in the Balkans, particular in Bosnia and Herzegovina, occurred after the Turkish conquest in the 15 century, when realy parts of the western Balkans deserted and inhabited by a new population from the south-east of the peninsula.
 
As, I recall, the whole idea (some 10 years ago) was that I2a was a part of autochthon Balkan population which resided in most isolated and mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps. Now that we know it is very young subclade, and that it most probably came to Balkan during the migration of 6th century, we can admit that our assumptions were wrong. The most isolated part of population hiding in the jungles of Bosnia now turns up to be a recent Slavic migrants. So, the people whose way of life and culture was fitting into our perception of autochthonous, and who were the best candidates for autochthonous population, turn out not to be that. That's why we can also assume that Byzantine Emperor was right when he said that Balkan was unpopulated during the Slavic invasion (or probably sparsely populated). If there was any large autochthon population, that survived Huns, wars and plagues it would be in the shoes of I2a.

Why do you thing that West Balkan was deserted in the 15th century? Yes there were some parts that were deserted, but we know that Turks didn't spend much time in the hinterland of Herzegovina. The terrain was too much inaccessible and there was no goods or gold to plunder. Even if it was deserted, that would not be I2a migrating from the south-east but probably mild and long wave of E/J compound?
 
Benedict Kuripesic in his travel very well illustrates the Turkish conquest of Bosnia 1531 years, also describes the deserted parts of going through, Herzegovina can't be considered separately truth has parts that are very inaccessible but there are also parts with the best climate in Europe. Many other sources to confirm, so that on a "standing people" in Bosnia in one place 1,400 years can't be spoken. Whatever the IMO that the major haplogroups of indigenous peoples in the Balkans I2a and E-V13, we call them Southern Slavs or Vlachs (Illyrians were missing in the 1st century AD)
 
If you knew anything you would first and foremost know about some basic manners, and refrain from posting provocative language on a forum where factual knowledge is shared.Byzantians pronounced Servia as Serbia because they pronounced V as a B.It is a misconception that the word Slav comes from slave, this is disputed today."Slavs" call themselves Slovenes, the root of the word is Слов/Slov (It means "word" in majority of languages). For Slavene you can use the fact that Слава/Slava means glory in all Slavic languages. The theory that Golden Lily is autonomous to Bosnia region can be argued as well since 90% of the scientists that propose this are of Bosnian origin. Imagine if there was a group of Croatian scientists that publish a research on how Croatians are the most intelligent people in Europe, would you believe it or would you rather believe what a group of scientists with different national backgrounds claim. On the Illyrian tribes: Ardani,Labodi and particulary Daorsi are tribes that are native to Albanian population. These surnames are common even today in Kosovo and northern Albania. None of these however seem to connect to Bosnia.
 
Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.
 
pxi3351 said:
Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.
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Well, their genetics are very similar indeed, so there goes that...

Figure-2-ADMIXTURE-analysis-of-autosomal-SNPs-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global.png
 
Maciamo said:
That's not how you should count. Try grouping the haplogroups by origin.

Paleolithic European haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) :

Croatia = 51%
Bosnia = 53%
Serbia = 35%

Near-Eastern haplogroups (E, J, T) :

Croatia = 11%
Bosnia = 24%
Serbia = 42%

Indo-European/Caucasian haplogroups (G2a, R1a, R1b)

Croatia = 38%
Bosnia = 19.5%
Serbia = 23%


The dominant category is Paleolithic for both Croatia and Bosnia, but Near-East for Serbia. Croatia has more Indo-European lineages than Bosnia though.

Note that the data you copied if for Bosnia-Herzegovina, not for ethnic Bosniaks only. It also includes ethnic Serbs and Croats living in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
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Serbia has 42,5% Paleolitic-Europeans haplogroups (I2a 34%, I1 8%, I2b 0,5%) [video]https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml[/video]

Percentage of Paleolitic European haoplogroups among ethnic Serbs is higher for few percents, because Serbia is an multiethnic country with 20% non-Serbs, and because of that genetic of Serbia is not exactly the same as genetic of ethnic Serbs.
 
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