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Thread: Pharaoh Tutankhamun, Akhenaten and Amenhotep III were R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    But the western european branch of R1b is very rare in Egypt, and is not found in Central Africa
    R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
    R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

    http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
    R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

    http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
    It's R1b1 not M269. It's an error. And the R1b found in Tutankhamun is of western-european type of R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    It's R1b1 not M269. It's an error. And the R1b found in Tutankhamun is of western-european type of R1b
    Ok not R1b1 may be ? but where is the paper about this ? there is no communication about this Egyptian R1b ? where is the article

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.

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    I do not know that Pharaoh Tut was R1b1b2 ? and there is no valuable sources about this story the Egyptian in charge of that research should communicate about the real haplogroup anyway if this R1b he is R1b1 not R1b1b2 and less Indo European who is a language NOT a Haplogroup found in the Steppe

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
    R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

    http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
    African American haplogroups Y-DNA is estimated to be almost 30%. Ghana and Cameroon were major areas of Atlantic slave trade. Have all the R1b haplogroups been lumped into European origin? The statistics above suggest that R1b for African Americans have African origins in many cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    African American haplogroups Y-DNA is estimated to be almost 30%. Ghana and Cameroon were major areas of Atlantic slave trade. Have all the R1b haplogroups been lumped into European origin? The statistics above suggest that R1b for African Americans have African origins in many cases.
    Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .
    In my opinion, the only subclade of R1b that may be associated with the Indo-Europeans is the P310 clade. Even there, we have the Basques which are outstanding (though there are a number of models which could explain this).

    It should be noted that there's an association of the clade V88 with the Afro-Asiatic language family, in particular (but not exclusively) the speakers of the Chadic language family, which is after all related with Berber, Egyptian and Semitic languages (V-88 varieties are found in the Maghreb, Egypt and the Levante). It also makes sense in so far as when you assume that R1b originated in Central Asia, you have to get through the Middle East to get into Africa. It's clear though that this migration event must be rather ancient. It's possible to assume a founder effect of some kind (perhaps promoted by polygyny etc.) which explains why R1b became so dominant in these areas in Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    R1b is found in Egypt this is not a rare haplogroup on that area some central Africans are R1b at high % thats not extraordinary the Pharaohs were R1b as many other Egyptians . No need the Hittites Kings to explain R1b just a reverse back paleolithic migration to Africa long time before the first civilization
    According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.

    Please try to read at least the first post in a thread before replying, not just the title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .
    That's wrong. Most of the African-American's R1b is of the western-european branch, due to intermarrying with White europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.

    Please try to read at least the first post in a thread before replying, not just the title.
    Could this also rule out the Hittite theory, Maciamo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    That's wrong. Most of the African-American's R1b is of the western-european branch, due to intermarrying with White europeans.
    Is there a source for that?

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    Los resultados de la prueba de ADN del faraón Tutankamón concluyen que pertenecía a Europa occidental, ibérico por parte de padre. En este enlace se puede leer un pequeño artículo muy revelador sobre esto. Si se confirma supone una noticia que puede cambiar la historia: ¿era la estirpe real egipcia de origen europeo occidental - ibérico?

    The results of DNA testing concluded that King Tut belonged to Western Europe, Iberian father's side. In this link you can read a small article on this very revealing. If confirmed is a story that can change history: was the Egyptian royal line of Western European origin - Iberian?


    http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html
    Last edited by Carlitos; 04-10-10 at 02:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Coyle View Post
    Could this also rule out the Hittite theory, Maciamo?
    No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.

    European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.

    European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.
    There is no denying the evidence, the paternal origin of the Egyptian pharaohs is Iberian. It is good that one would like genetics, but is very bad form to use only interested.


    http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html


    It is hiding the truth, the position of Egypt I think children in many countries have had foreign kings, nothing happens Egypt, tells the truth goes the world!, Oh my God! some can not handle the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    Is there a source for that?
    Yes, here :

    http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/pub...llone2004a.pdf

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    I think in a few years are going to have to throw the trash many current ideas about genetics, then nobody can use it at your convenience or you can ignore the obvious, nothing will have a good bit of face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.
    European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.
    Thank you for your answer Maciamo. So, the Hittites invasion may well be the reason for Egyptian Royals DNA.
    Seems as though where ever one looks the DNA evidence is vindicating the old late 19th and early 20th century Aryan migration theories. I know most American scholars around 1910 were describing the conquest of our own "American West" as the last of the great Aryan migrations, perhaps they were more accurate than more recent scholars who use the Indo-European designation. Don't get me wrong here I'm not using the word Aryan in a 1930s German sense, but simply as a traditional name for a people who migrated from a particular geographic region, and into many other regions spreading their culture and perhaps their language. So perhaps now it would be more fitting and proper to drop the revisionist Indo-European designation for this people, and instead use the traditional and much simpler Aryan name in it's place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Coyle View Post
    Thank you for your answer Maciamo. So, the Hittites invasion may well be the reason for Egyptian Royals DNA.
    Seems as though where ever one looks the DNA evidence is vindicating the old late 19th and early 20th century Aryan migration theories. I know most American scholars around 1910 were describing the conquest of our own "American West" as the last of the great Aryan migrations, perhaps they were more accurate than more recent scholars who use the Indo-European designation. Don't get me wrong here I'm not using the word Aryan in a 1930s German sense, but simply as a traditional name for a people who migrated from a particular geographic region, and into many other regions spreading their culture and perhaps their language. So perhaps now it would be more fitting and proper to drop the revisionist Indo-European designation for this people, and instead use the traditional and much simpler Aryan name in it's place.
    I completely agree with you.

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    @Maciamo

    <sniff> You propably just deleted the funniest and most satirical passage of the whole forum... :-(

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    @Maciamo

    Ah, just discovered you've put it off-topic. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I completely agree with you.
    During the Renaissance astronomers who said that the earth orbited the sun were intimidated into silence. We too live in such an age. An age where belief is more important than scientific inquiry. I have great appreciation for all your research at this site. Your research into the migrations of ancient peoples has been very important for my own historical understanding. This DNA work has significance.
    Last edited by Richard Coyle; 09-10-10 at 23:23.

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    Tutankhamun died of malaria and bone disorders, according to genetic study
    Last edited by Carlitos; 10-10-10 at 02:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.
    Very surprising indeed, unless they actually digged out pieces of DNA of people who actually discovered his mummy 90 years ago.... who were west europeans and whose remains are recent enough to be traceable... perhaps one of the people who discovered mummy had lot of dandruff.... well, don't blame the archaeologist, he could not know someone will do DNA search there...

    Tuthankamon lived quite recently in genetic timeline...around 1333 BC – 1323 BC... if he had haplotypes that are characteristic only of European people now...that would mean that group from which he origins has since than moved from Egypt, over Persia, over ancient Greece, to west Europe without leaving traces on the way...
    while I find it possible that ancient Greeks being probably fair haired might have been R1b much more than now, I find it hard to believe that European R1b haplotypes made such a massive journey that stayed unrecorded in history and left no genetic traces along the way...

    so, until I see more evidence regarding such a massive journey, I prefer to stick to the dandruff theory..

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ...
    while I find it possible that ancient Greeks being probably fair haired might have been R1b much more than now...
    Greeks during ancient times were no more fair haired than we are now. You can find a decent number of Greeks with very light characteristics now as you could also find back then according to descriptions.
    We didn't change much since then.

    On the contrary, Greeks and Italians during those times believed to be superior from other populations because as they said they were not too pale like the people of the North and not dark skinned as people in the Middle East or Egypt.

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