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Thread: New haplogroup I2a map

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    Arrow New haplogroup I2a map



    I have created a new map for Y-haplogroup I2a1 (P37.2), including I2a1a (M26) and I2a1b (M423). Data is still sparse or unreliable for Bulgaria, Romania and the Middle East. For instance some studies give a very unreasonable 1% of I2a in Bulgaria while others go over 40%.

    The problem in the Middle East is that few studies distinguish subclades of I. There shouldn't be any significant number of I1 or I2b beyond Western Anatolia, but that doesn't mean that all I is I2a. There could be I* and I2*. I had choice but resort to some guesswork. A study on Kurdistan gave 33% of hg I for the Zazaki Turks of eastern Anatolia. I doubt that all of it is I2a, but it's possible considering the high percentage of R1a (26%) and the fact that they are Indo-European speakers.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 11-11-13 at 09:29.

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    Which study for Bulgarians shows over 40% of I2a?
    I've seen one and it gives 0% of I2a for them.

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    I have made some modifications. I forgot the Castillan I2a hotspot from Flores' study.

    I2a2 hotspots : Macedonia and the western Czech Republic.

    Italy, Switzerland and Germany mark the East-West divide between I2a2 and I2a1.

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    I didn't know there is so much I2a in Ukraine.Is there any study to back this up?
    I've only seen that north-eastern Romania respresents enclave of noticeably higher I2a,but not outside that.

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    In western Croatia(Istria) I2a is very low,and falls to about 10 percent.
    http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Italy, Switzerland and Germany mark the East-West divide between I2a2 and I2a1.
    In northern Italy(Trento) it has been found about 10 percent of I2a1*
    http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html

    it is the same I2a version which applies to Bosniaks,Croats etc. according to this last study

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    According to the Eupedia Y-DNA table, Turkey has 4% of I2a, which does not correlate with the map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    Which study for Bulgarians shows over 40% of I2a?
    I've seen one and it gives 0% of I2a for them.
    This one (p.67) gives 42% of I. There is very little I1 or I2b in Bulgaria, so most of it is I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    I didn't know there is so much I2a in Ukraine.Is there any study to back this up?
    I've only seen that north-eastern Romania respresents enclave of noticeably higher I2a,but not outside that.
    Balanovsky et al. (2008) : check the map of I2a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yeah,is this it?
    http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_balanovsky2008.htm

    I can see it is often above 20% in Ukraine,but still north-east Romania has much more(over 40%),and maybe it should be distinguished.
    The way how it is now makes one think that the secondary maximum is in Ukraine,which is not true,it is North-East Romania,or should i say the historical province of Moldova.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    According to the Eupedia Y-DNA table, Turkey has 4% of I2a, which does not correlate with the map
    Lots of contradictory data. Turkey has big regional variations, but not enough detailed studies. I chose the colour for 5-10% overall, but I think I should change it to 1-5% outside the Aegean coast and Kurdistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This one (p.67) gives 42% of I. There is very little I1 or I2b in Bulgaria, so most of it is I2a.
    Im' not so sure absolutely all is,it should be further analysed.
    Recent researches show there is some 8-10 percent of I1 in north Greece,Macedonia and that area,also there has been found 4 percent of I2b in Albania.

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    This 42 percent of I for Bulgarians is suspicios.Where is the concrete study which shows those numbers?the number of samples aren't given at all

    here is what i found as well,from Bulgarian DNA project:
    http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/top...n-dna-project/

    It says haplogroup I(almost all I2a) in Bulgars is 22,5 percent followed by E with 21,5.

    so we have two obviously undersampled studies,one shows 0 percent I2a for Bulgarians,other 40 percent,and one researcj from Bulgarian Y-DNA project which shows 22 percent.
    and you said there is one study which shows 1 percent also.

    how did you end up those 33 percent for Bulgarians then?

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    I have made the necessary amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    This 42 percent of I for Bulgarians is suspicios.Where is the concrete study which shows those numbers?the number of samples aren't given at all

    here is what i found as well,from Bulgarian DNA project:
    http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/top...n-dna-project/

    It says haplogroup I(almost all I2a) in Bulgars is 22,5 percent followed by E with 21,5.

    so we have two obviously undersampled studies,one shows 0 percent I2a for Bulgarians,other 40 percent,and one researcj from Bulgarian Y-DNA project which shows 22 percent.
    and you said there is one study which shows 1 percent also.

    how did you end up those 33 percent for Bulgarians then?
    On the map south-east Bulgaria is 10-15% I2a and the north-west is 15-20%. I think that is a safe compromise until a more detailed study is made.

    I will modify the percentage in the grid too. I proceeded by elimination to get to 33%. I calculated the average for R1a, R1b, E, G and J in various studies, and was left with 37% of undetermined I. I estimated that there couldn't be more than 3% of I1 and 1% of I2b, so I lumped the rest as I2a. But I may have overlooked the possibility that a low but substantial percentage (up to 3%) of Bulgarian Y-DNA could be of Central or East Asian origin (C, F, K, N, O, P and Q) owing to the numerous Turkic tribes that settled in the region. However I have no study to support it. I have readjusted the Y-DNA percentages for Bulgaria, and drastically cut I2a from 33% to 20% and increased a bit all the other haplogroups to compensate.

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    Thanks Maciamo,I'm glad you are willing to cooperate.The data is vast and scarced and I understand there might be some confusions.

    To me it makes no logic that Bulgarians have so much I2a,concerning their location they should have mostly Neolithic haplogroups,like other Balkan countries(except Croatia and Bosnia) and Romania.
    Obviously I2a falls abruptly when going further from Croatian-Bosnian dinaric area.
    Albania,Macedonia and north Greece have 17-18 percent of I2a,Romania 15 to 20 percent overall so i think there is no logic that Bulgarians have more.

    I'm surprised there exists(although highly undersampled and old) a study which shows 42 percent of haplogroup I for Bulgarians,I thought there was such a study which shows that Bulgarians have 42% of R1b.
    But this Bulgarian Y-DNA project is the most sistematic reasearch done for Bulgarians so far.

    And I have one more doubt...where are the sources for Belarussian 25% of I2a?

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    Maciamo,how about that you make a sub-grid below Bosnia and Herzegovina and show distinct percentages for three disctinct ethnic groups(Croats,Serbs,Bosniaks).Those people are of different geographical origin.Serbs in Bosnia came from Serbia mostly,Bosniaks descend greatly from Islamized Croats,Serbs and Hungarians and from significant number of Near Eastern colonists,and Croats are in vast majority autochtonous(which genetics shows).
    I see you have the same for Basques in Spain and Bashirs in Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    To me it makes no logic that Bulgarians have so much I2a,concerning their location they should have mostly Neolithic haplogroups,like other Balkan countries(except Croatia and Bosnia) and Romania.
    Obviously I2a falls abruptly when going further from Croatian-Bosnian dinaric area.
    Haplogroup I represents the Paleolithic Europeans. Presumably there was only I2a2 in the Balkans and Carpathians prior to the arrival of Near-Eastern farmers and herders during the Neolithic. So I2a2 is not just Dinaric. It is Paleolithic south-east European.

    I am convinced that the I2a2 hunter-gatherers learned farming fairly quickly from their Near-Eastern neighbours and that many of the cultures of Old Europe were predominantly I2a2 (like Cucuteni-Tripolye) or heavily mixed (probably the case in Bulgaria).


    And I have one more doubt...where are the sources for Belarussian 25% of I2a?
    Wiik's study in link above gives 30% of I in Belarus (mostly I2a2). Balanovsky's map of I1b (I2a2) shows 16-21% of I2a2 in the southern half of Belarus and 11-16% in the northern half.

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    And have you taken this study in consideration?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

    It shows Belarussians have 15 percent of I2a.

    So we have two studies where haplogroup I is defined into modern subclades and it shows 15 percent of I2a for Belarussians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    And have you taken this study in consideration?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

    It shows Belarussians have 15 percent of I2a.

    So we have two studies where haplogroup I is defined into modern subclades and it shows 15 percent of I2a for Belarussians.
    Yes, it is part of the studies used by Wiik for his averages.

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    but where are studies which would show more than 15 percent of I2a for Belarus then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    but where are studies which would show more than 15 percent of I2a for Belarus then?
    Wiik gets an average 29.7% of I. He cites Balanovsky, Rootsi, Laitinen, Rosser and Nasidze, but doesn't give the detail of the calculation.

    I checked each study, but only Rosser gives clear percentages of I for Belarus (34%) but the sample is small (n=41) and subclades aren't distinguished. It is the same study that found 42% of haplogroup I in the Bulgarians, with an even smaller sample size (only 24 individuals !).

    I will lower the percentage of I2a for Belarus from 25% to 18% in the Y-DNA table. Balanovsky's average is about 18%. If it is less I don't know what other haplogroup to increase without contradicting other studies.

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    Are all the studies above accesible to public?
    Anyway,I don't believe Belarus has 25 percent of I2a,at least not until I see scientific study which shows that exact numbers.
    Also I see that Estonia for example has 15 percent of I1,why can't Belarus then as well have close numbers?we also could add 1-2 percent of I2b.

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    Laitinen doesn't give any I numbers for Belarus as I can see

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    OK,I see you've lowered it.That is alright.
    That study which shows 42% for Bulgarians and 34% for Belarus is very weird...

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