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Thread: New haplogroup I2a map

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    Yeah,that's the same study which gives Croatians 9.0% of I1.
    I thought there was a specific study for FYROM Macedonians,but I guess we can conclude they have it a lot since their first southern neighbors have it.

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    Is the I1 in the balkans of paleolithic origin, or was introduced via germanic peoples ?

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    Obviously it was brought from the north,I doubt any I1 is autochtonous here.

    Here are my theories:
    1)Slavs were brought by Goths in these areas,2 of 3 books for early Croatian history mentions Croats/Slavs in this are as 'Goths' or 'Goths,who are in fact Slavs','Croats alias Goths'
    2)Goths arrived here just before Slavs and were assimilated,so in some way they are 'autochtonous' to this area,check this map:
    http://www.s155239215.onlinehome.us/...nHunEmpire.gif
    3)Croats may have assimilated great deal of I1 people in their old homeland.
    Craniometrical measurements show that early Croats mostly correspond to skelets found on the border of north-eastern Germany and Poland;as I am aware,great deal of I1 is present there.If their 'homeland' was there,they surely assimilated a lot of I1.
    4)People who came to western Balkans were simply Slavic-Gothic mix,an alliance of tribes.
    5)Most extreme theory-Goths were Slavs themselves,parzitularly eastern Goths,some writers even claim that.

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    There might be a lot of truth in it, Joro. Goths started their trip from middle of Scandinavia. It took them around 150 years to get to the Black Sea. Their main language remained Nordic, but during this slow voyage they most likely collected some Baltic and Slavic (and/or whoever the Venedi or Veleti were) tribes, or at least some genes. Same might apply to Vandals. Eventually these tribes were pushed West by Slavic and Hunnic people. I saw a map somewhere showing Serbs location in Bavaria for couple of hundred of years before moving south.
    Definitely lots of mixing around.

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    yeah,but Serbs have only about 2 percent of I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Zazaki_language"]Zazaki Turks[/URL] of eastern Anatolia. I doubt that all of it is I2a, but it's possible considering the high percentage of R1a (26%) and the fact that they are Indo-European speakers.
    Please Dear Maciamo since when we Zazaki speakers became Turks? I have never seen a member of my family calling him self Turk. We speak a Northiranic language related to Parthian and are ethnicly kurdish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Please Dear Maciamo since when we Zazaki speakers became Turks? I have never seen a member of my family calling him self Turk. We speak a Northiranic language related to Parthian and are ethnicly kurdish.
    If you live on the Turkish territory and have the Turkish nationality, you are Turk, no matter what is your ethnicity. Most Turks are ethnic European anyway, not ethnic Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    yeah,but Serbs have only about 2 percent of I1.
    actually:

    haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
    I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
    I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
    I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 17-11-10 at 23:46. Reason: link was edited because it was incorrect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If you live on the Turkish territory and have the Turkish nationality, you are Turk, no matter what is your ethnicity. Most Turks are ethnic European anyway, not ethnic Turks.
    Kurds are recognized in Europe as seperate own Group so you are wrong with your oppinion. A nation is not equal to a state you should know that! There is a big difference between a Citizen of Turkey and beeing a ethnic Turk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Kurds are recognized in Europe as seperate own Group so you are wrong with your oppinion. A nation is not equal to a state you should know that! There is a big difference between a Citizen of Turkey and beeing a ethnic Turk.
    I think you confuse nation with ethnicity. In Turkey's case, nation equals state, because it is not a federal country and therefore only has one state for the whole nation. On the other hand there are lots of ethnic groups : Greeks, Armenians, Kurds...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    I2a2-Isles is also found in Scotland as far as I am aware.
    L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

    Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

    I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.

    So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.

    The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.

    To reiterate, this small north-west European form of I2a2 is quite distinct from the eastern, Balkans-centred I2a2 that Nordtvedt calls I2a2a-Dinaric. 'Isles' is absent from eastern Europe, and 'Dinaric' [having 2 varieties- 'North' and 'South'] is absent from western Europe.

    Curiously, there is a relatively rare intermediate form of I2a2 [nearer in gd to I2a2a-Dinaric than to I2a2b-Isles] called I2a2a-Disles by Nordtvedt. This rarer form has a 'hotspot' in Scotland, followed by Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

    Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

    I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.

    So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.

    The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.

    To reiterate, this small north-west European form of I2a2 is quite distinct from the eastern, Balkans-centred I2a2 that Nordtvedt calls I2a2a-Dinaric. 'Isles' is absent from eastern Europe, and 'Dinaric' [having 2 varieties- 'North' and 'South'] is absent from western Europe.

    Curiously, there is a relatively rare intermediate form of I2a2 [nearer in gd to I2a2a-Dinaric than to I2a2b-Isles] called I2a2a-Disles by Nordtvedt. This rarer form has a 'hotspot' in Scotland, followed by Ireland.
    This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

    Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.
    there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...

    I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...

    e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
    (e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
    25 according to classification above is value that only appears in 2 of Isles branches...)

    Btw. Maciamo's map of I2a2 shows strange hole of I2a2 in area of east Serbia, while according to data I have seen, only real hole of I2a2 in Balkans seems to be among Albanian population of Kosovo... so I am curious why in Maciamo's map is there no hole in spread of I2a2 in Kosovo, and why is there one in east Serbia....

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.
    Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.

    As yet, there is no SNP which defines 'Disles' but it is slightly closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than to the L161 positive, I2a2b-Isles.

    I agree with you regarding a Danube Basin origin for the common ancestor of I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles. The 'Isles' mutation L161 probably occurred in northern Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...

    I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...

    e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
    (e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
    25 according to classification above is value that only appears in 2 of Isles branches...)

    Btw. Maciamo's map of I2a2 shows strange hole of I2a2 in area of east Serbia, while according to data I have seen, only real hole of I2a2 in Balkans seems to be among Albanian population of Kosovo... so I am curious why in Maciamo's map is there no hole in spread of I2a2 in Kosovo, and why is there one in east Serbia....
    I believe that Nordtvedt has examined eastern European sources, and the findings are that I2a2b-Isles is effectively absent in eastern Europe. It is relatively easy to sort 'Dinaric' varieties from 'Isles' varieties by STR markers, and the type found in the Balkans is definately not the 'Isles' variety. The scientific papers are out of date regarding I2a2. For example, Rootsi et al [2004] did not even examine Britain. The FTDNA I2a Project has tested plenty of the Balkans variety of I2a2 for SNP L161- it always comes out negative. I2a2b-Isles is definately a distinct, north-western European variant of I2a2.

    I agree with you that the scientific papers don't, as yet, make these distinctions. However, there is recognition of sorts. Bryan Sykes sees most I2a2 in Britain as Anglo Saxon in origin and not 'Balkan', whilst Jim Wilson [Ethnoancestry] acknowledges this 'Isles' variant of I2a2.

    There are a handful of Polish I2a2b-Isles members but more than one has the German surname, 'Krause' and they occur in formerly German areas of Poland.

    Look closely, 6 out of 8 Isles subgroups can carry 24 at 390. 24 is not just 'Dinaric' but also the value at dys 390 for most 'Isles'. Besides, we need to look at other markers aside from just 390. The 23s and 25s at 390 might not be significant- mutations happen.

    The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
    14, 15 at dys 385a,b
    12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d

    I agree re the hole in the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.
    It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.

    If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.

    If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir
    As far as we know I2a2a-Disles does not seem to appear in eastern Europe but that is not to rule it out.

    Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?

    You mention Mesolithic culture. Ken Nordtvedt's dating places the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles [B1, B2] squarely in the Neolithic. However, Tim Owen and Ian Adamson, in their blog 'Genes of the Cruthin', conjecture that the oldest I2a2b may in fact date to the late Mesolithic, with a possible connection to the Narrowblade culture which replaced the Broadblade culture in prehistoric Britain.

    I think the Danube Basin is a highly probable place of origin for the joint ancestor of I2a2b and I2a2a, and note your Lepenski Ver reference. Who knows at this point? You might be correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
    14, 15 at dys 385a,b
    12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d.
    In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro

    385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
    13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

    DIsles have 15/15
    but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..


    464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro

    385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
    13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

    DIsles have 15/15
    but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..


    464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...
    Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?
    I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.
    I'm in regular touch with Ken Nordtvedt as a fellow I haplogroup enthusiast, and as yet he is unsure of what to make of the Albanian haplotypes.

    So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.
    very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.
    Yes, I 've heard for that. Main specific- low value for DYS 19=14. I have been watching right now all haplotypes listed in last study in Serbia and Montenegro ( about 166 I2a haplotypes overall) and only 4 haplotypes of 166 have DYS=14.
    Well I don't know could we call it specifically Croatian characteristic, because in I2a Ftdna Project there is also only four persons with DYS 19=14 among members of both Dinaric south and north. Two of them are Croats, there is a one Slovenian, one Bosnian and one Bulgarian. And there is also plenty of Croats there which have no DYS 19=14.
    I think that Nordtvedt write also about some specific Russian I2a2 Dinaric.
    However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.
    I agree with the most of your thoughts.
    I'll just mention one more possibilty regarding history of I2a2. First of all, my definitive opinion is that I2a2 Dinaric originated in Polesia. And if we take that into consideration we may get to the following conclusion - that 2000 years ago all I2a2 subclades were absent from basins made by Alps and Carpathians (Pannonia, Lombardia) including Balkans. I think that this mountain range made of Alps and Carpathians represented borderline for many clades of different haplogroups, and I beleive this is especially the case with I2a2.

    So my opinion is that when looking for the place of origin for I2a2 we should look North or East of these mountain ranges.

    Speculating about that early history causes very unreliable conclusions in general, but if I would have to say was the place of origin in Northwest Europe, Northern or Eastern Europe, I would bet on Eastern Europe.

    I think it might be that earlier European history belonged to G2a3 (Western Europe) and E-V13 (Central Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve
    Fair enough, 'very different' is too vague. Despite the branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric separating around 13,000 years ago all carriers of I2a2 are genetic cousins. That is how I regard posters such as Shetop, Iapodos and others with I2a2 genes like mine.

    What I mean by 'very different' is in relation to tribal/social histories and in terms of culture [values and norms]. I2a2b-Isles is associated with the north-west, with Britain, Ireland and the north European plain and hence with pre-Celtic settlers, Celts, Anglo-Saxons etc. I2a2a-Dinaric represents eastern European populations such as the various Balkan peoples. Sociologically, of course, there are commonalities between these cultures, but there are distinct, easily-identifiable differences between English and Serbian cultures, to give a friendly and respectful example.

    The thing to remember though [in my view] is that we are not the sum of our Ydna haplogroup. It is only a small part of our genetic make-up. For example, my Maternal Grandfather's Ydna was I1-Norse, which leans towards Scandinavia. Then there is Mtdna, autosomal etc.

    I take your point though. The I2a2 populations are close re Ydna, and I certainly feel an affinity with all fellow I2a2s, be they English, Irish, German, Serbian, Croatian etc.

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