Race and IQ

Is there a difference of IQ between the larger race groups?

  • Yes, I think so.

    Votes: 64 58.7%
  • No, I don't think so.

    Votes: 31 28.4%
  • Not sure.

    Votes: 14 12.8%

  • Total voters
    109
Bodin, keep in mind that fertile crescent was most fertile between 5000 to 1000 BC. Then the climate shifted and crescent became dryer than before producing fewer crops. The crescent become less agricultural with times. It was reversed in Europe where last 3000 years are most agricultural ever. Europe became extremely intense agriculturally in last 3000 years, and crescent become less. Basically it is the point in time when "glory" and history of Europe starts, and Babylon, Assyria, Egypt fade away.
If you can, find some statistics of agricultural production of Europe and Fertile Crescent, even from 100 or 200 years ago and you'll see what is intense agriculturalisem in Europe compared to crescent. Probably the population count will do the trick. There were always as many people in countries as they could feed. So you can compare number of cities or big cities in both areas.
Europe is roughly 10 times bigger than fertile crescent, therefore even in big disasters or wars, there are more pockets for farmers to survive and rebuild. There was no one ruler or army that conquered whole Europe ever, unlike Crescent which was under one ruler many times.
Europe is in very blessed position for agriculture. You can plan your crops year after year and expect similar weather conditions, and same results. There are rarely big droughts or locust killing your crops. Climate stability is the trick.
Now look at Africa. The only part of Africa with fairly stable climate is Zimbabwe, the former food basket of this continent. The rest can experience weather extremes that can last for decades, like droughts. Even in good years your good crops can be eaten away by locust or 10 000 strong flock of antelopes. You have desert in 1/3 of Africa, 1/3 a jungle and 1/3 not bad for crops, but everything alive wants to eat it too. That's why agriculture was always very sparse and in between in Africa. It is there but it is a far cry from intense European agriculture. There is a reason why Europe and East Asia are the most populated places on Earth. It is a food production. If not anti-conception, and population control, there would be twice as many, or more, Europeans and East Asians now.
There are always few phenomenons in the world, but this shows a general trend.
Greeks invented theater and actors, but who makes more money on it now? Who feeds millions from this invention at the moment? California. Can you say "intensity"?



Agriculturalisem gives people who embraced it a huge advantage in survival. There is no way people will missed or avoid this opportunity. If there are no agriculturalists in some regions of this planet, is just because the conditions are not suitable to lead this lifestyle. It is simple like this. If Japanese do agriculturalisem then it means that it works there, period. If Eskimos don't do it, we know they are not able. Heck, the Vikings tried it on Greenland, and we know the results. This is not a matter of free choice, this is a matter of surviving and natural selection, surviving of most adopted to the environment.



I wasn't arguing about how useful the knowledge was in communist schools. Even the pure memorization of useless material trains the brain and improves memory. It makes easier to memorize useful material in future when time comes. Same as training your muscles.
Also IQ tests don't test real world knowledge or skills. Mainly IQ tests logic with numbers, words and associations. In this regard socialistic schools were pretty good preparing pupils for IQ test.
What I tried to say is that Fertile Crescent peoples eat cerials allready over 10.000 years and most of Europeans not more than 4000 years (IE) .Still today Asians use more cerials in diet then Europeans
Egypt faded away because he have never left Stone Age . And Assyria and Babylon were conquered by newcoming IE nations-Medes and Persians.
What about India which is equaly fertile like Europe and had smaller IQ, Japanes eat less cerials then both Europeans and Indians and they have higher IQ, they diet is mostly sea food , why Scandianavians and Irish had such big IQ when there was never high scale agriculture , up to XX century there was comon hungers.
No you cant train your brain especialy by memorizing that concept is left by Pedagogy and Sociology in XIX century
Thanks for answering
 
Of course you can " train " your brain, why do you think you get better at typing at a computer by doing it often?

Also, you will get quicker at arithmetic if you do it often, It's adaption. It's the end result of millions of years of evolution.

Saying that the brain wont adapt to challenge and is set from birth is ridiculous.
 
If you label people with words with socio-emotional context you will fail to understand how world really works. Word "Lazy" have a bad connotation, but it shouldn't. In nature there is no bad things or good things. They are just are different things. All things can be beneficial under right circumstances. For example "lazy", or rather energy conserving trait, can be a beneficial for individual or a group of people in certain environments. If you in Africa and work like workaholic in a middle of the day in +40C it can be fatal. Your workaholic genes are finished and not carried over to next generation.
Same thing in times of food scarcity. Running around like crazy looking for food that is not there will exhaust you and kill, together with your kids. Sitting around, conserving energy, often is more beneficial and lets you survive till next rain, or till next successful hunting. This is typical for Prairie Indians or Australia Aboriginies. Pure hunter-gatherers.
Most of Europeans will label them lazy, as per their mind set of Western hard working/production oriented philosophy of life.
Yes, it's true they are not adopted to western way of life. They are excellently adopted to their hunter-gatherer ways, and survived in local environments for tens of thousands of years. Now this their big success.

Now, before you start comparing others to western, as you put "developed" (most likely meaning "superior") ways of life, keep in mind that we are only "developed" for last couple of hundreds of years. It is a damn short time to decide if the new ways (superior ways) are good, meaning beneficial for our groups. If we survive ten of thousands of years, preferably a million, in this developed stage, then you can claim that.
Unfortunately, we got so developed that population of western countries are falling down in numbers. Japan from 120 million people in 80s, is down to 110 or 105 now. Europe is following this trend too. With this speed our developed civilization will vanish in couple of hundred of years.
Now tell me, is being developed a good thing or a bad one for our species?

As hunter-gatherers we existed for millions of years, as agriculturalists for 10 thousand, as technological society for couple of hundreds (and maybe near the end?). How do we measure success and superiority?
Keep in mind that life on earth is always about next generation. It's not about your happiness, or your culture, or language. It's about your genes, and your genes being carried over to next generation. If this principle is not fulfilled, your line is dead. If group fails, then your species can be wiped out too from this planet.
Life on earth is about next generation. Judging by this definition of life on earth and history of humans, we can conclude that so far we were the most successful when we were hunter-gatherers. We had more generations than agriculturalists and "developed" westerners combined.
No we are not , Europe in age of hunter-gatherers had about million inhabitants , only after industrial revolution population boom has hapened.TThere is also many of nonreproductive population -over 50 in Europe , Australia and North America than in rest of the world- result of inproved medicine . Aldo I agreed with you European countries need to give more attention to renewing generations ( taxes for mans and womans who do not have childs after 23 , and using that money for helping parents ; forbiding of abortions unless it is for helt , and forming state institutions that would take care of such childrens - simillar to lebensborn in Nazi Germany ; Also there is another god idea from Nazi Germany and Faschist Italy - medals for mothers that born 3 or more childs and what is more important state penzions with medals (they can work receiving these pensions) ; ...)
Zlatni krst majki.jpg
Cross of Mothers
 
IQ is not static but changes all the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

We can't measure an average IQ of a population and expect the same result like 50 years later or earlier. Even within just four years you can measure differences (according to the results of Richard Lynn). It is all about nutrition an environmental input.
 
Sorry I expresed myself badly , yes you can train your brain , but in sence of knowledge and skils not in sence of smarts , otherwise mental deficiency would be curable.And memorising -repeating of dry facts wont develope any skill or knowledge unless it is conected with practical use.
Someone mention something about bacterias not changing , bacterias changing every day , thats the reason are medicaments dont work so good anymore , bacterias geting imune on them.
Thanks for answering
 
There are statistics that say Negroid races do not attain quite the same scores as Caucasians.
This is statistics and statistics are open to manipulation and mistakes. I can assure you that
there are blacks in Mensa and they are intellectually the same as white Ms. One of them
has been editor of the Southeast Michigan Mensa group newsletter for many years. We just
see her as one of us. I wonder why it needs to be discussed?
 
If you label people with words with socio-emotional context you will fail to understand how world really works. Word "Lazy" have a bad connotation, but it shouldn't. In nature there is no bad things or good things. They are just are different things. All things can be beneficial under right circumstances. For example "lazy", or rather energy conserving trait, can be a beneficial for individual or a group of people in certain environments. If you in Africa and work like workaholic in a middle of the day in +40C it can be fatal. Your workaholic genes are finished and not carried over to next generation.
Same thing in times of food scarcity. Running around like crazy looking for food that is not there will exhaust you and kill, together with your kids. Sitting around, conserving energy, often is more beneficial and lets you survive till next rain, or till next successful hunting. This is typical for Prairie Indians or Australia Aboriginies. Pure hunter-gatherers.
Most of Europeans will label them lazy, as per their mind set of Western hard working/production oriented philosophy of life.
Yes, it's true they are not adopted to western way of life. They are excellently adopted to their hunter-gatherer ways, and survived in local environments for tens of thousands of years. Now this their big success.

Now, before you start comparing others to western, as you put "developed" (most likely meaning "superior") ways of life, keep in mind that we are only "developed" for last couple of hundreds of years. It is a damn short time to decide if the new ways (superior ways) are good, meaning beneficial for our groups. If we survive ten of thousands of years, preferably a million, in this developed stage, then you can claim that.
Unfortunately, we got so developed that population of western countries are falling down in numbers. Japan from 120 million people in 80s, is down to 110 or 105 now. Europe is following this trend too. With this speed our developed civilization will vanish in couple of hundred of years.
Now tell me, is being developed a good thing or a bad one for our species?

As hunter-gatherers we existed for millions of years, as agriculturalists for 10 thousand, as technological society for couple of hundreds (and maybe near the end?). How do we measure success and superiority?
Keep in mind that life on earth is always about next generation. It's not about your happiness, or your culture, or language. It's about your genes, and your genes being carried over to next generation. If this principle is not fulfilled, your line is dead. If group fails, then your species can be wiped out too from this planet.
Life on earth is about next generation. Judging by this definition of life on earth and history of humans, we can conclude that so far we were the most successful when we were hunter-gatherers. We had more generations than agriculturalists and "developed" westerners combined.

As one who believes in "conserving" energy as often as possible, it is good to know how much I am doing for the future of man-kind!
On a more serious note however, I do worry where our "development" as humans is taking us .
Whilst the advances made in medicine, technology and science are indeed wonderful, I worry that we are maybe overstepping ourselves, becoming detached from consequences of such "development" We have polluted the sea and air (not to mention the space junk now floating around) We are depleting earths resources at a shocking rate and planting some trees or using energy saving devices may not be enough to balance this now.
No, I would not wish us back to the dark ages and yes, I have benefited from technological and scientific progress but I wonder if our development is not leading to our downfall as a species.
 
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Yes, of course there is. It's been well documented numerous amounts of times as well. The pecking order for intelligence in relation to brain size have Asians on top by a bit, Caucasoids, and then Negroes coming in last. It's not racist, it's just fact.
 
Yes, of course there is. It's been well documented numerous amounts of times as well. The pecking order for intelligence in relation to brain size have Asians on top by a bit, Caucasoids, and then Negroes coming in last. It's not racist, it's just fact.
:D

Now seriosly, ¿what else is required to ban this guy? There are no facts concerning people's intelligence, since IQ tests are made by Westerners most times and, hence, they'll favor White Americans, Europeans, etc. Asimov was so critic with this kind of tests, even when he got very high scores in all of them. No, it's not fact, just a point of view.
 
Yes, of course there is. It's been well documented numerous amounts of times as well. The pecking order for intelligence in relation to brain size have Asians on top by a bit, Caucasoids, and then Negroes coming in last. It's not racist, it's just fact.

Show us the proof, then. Where's the study that demonstrates this "pecking order," which eliminates all other possible variables?

To be clear, I don't doubt that intelligence is largely genetic, in the same way that, say, strength is... it can be conditioned, but there must be a predisposition based on genes. The trouble is, it's extremely difficult to eliminate environmental variables in studies. Even in those that have taken children of different races raised by the same parents, you're not eliminating how children of different races will be treated differently by the same parents, or at school.
 
"...there was never an African as smart as Einstein..."

Albert Einstein is Hg E1b1b1 so he is of African descent as well Napolean Bonaparte, Wright Brothers, Adolf Hitler and former President Lyndon Baines Johnson.
 
"...there was never an African as smart as Einstein..."

Albert Einstein is Hg E1b1b1 so he is of African descent as well Napolean Bonaparte, Wright Brothers, Adolf Hitler and former President Lyndon Baines Johnson.

1- the poeple you refer to was not "african" and lesser "negroid" - stop all that nonsense : if intelligence is under genetic hereditage control for a part, it depends surely on a lot of interactions between autosomals and not only on a Y-DNA unique influence
2- I think intelligence is for a part depending on genetic heritage, for an other part on environment, cultural and everyday life background, climate and so on... all that modifying slowly genetic heritage in ancient times
3- "intelligence" is multiform and very uneasy to determine, the most of previous criteria for IQ was cultural biased even if they can reveal some skills on some directions
4- yes, COON was right when he said cold climate SELECTED people are as a whole more active than warm people SELECTED people; more intelligent? maybe, but it is still to be proved...
5- is hyper-industrial-activity a proof of intelligence? I'm not sure at all...
6- the improvment in human society seams to me linked better to moderate climates than to true cold (harsh) climates: it is evident enough - but when we compare civilisations births and places of birth, let's not forget that climate changed more than a time in regions of our earth! I think some problems send ameliorations by reaction, too much problems don't: it is like sport and too hard competition...
to conclude because I find this thread very sliding: I personally prefer honest sincere "middle" intelligent people to materialist egoistic ice-heartened genial people (a lot of adjectives: my curious english!)

good appetite
 
E* is west eursian. Modern West Africans rich in E* are half way between West Eurasians and Pigmy rich in A* and B*. East Africans are intermediate between West Africans and West Eurasians. Arabs and North Africans are intermediate between Europeans and East Africans. Also some East Eurasians have some West Eurasian ancestry because of ANE and R-Q-O haplotypes.

dGuHIrX.png
 
For IQ and race to be proven to be correlated, you'd have to hold every other variable constant, in a controlled study. Unless this has happened, I am skeptical of the idea that there is any direct correlation.
 
For IQ and race to be proven to be correlated, you'd have to hold every other variable constant, in a controlled study. Unless this has happened, I am skeptical of the idea that there is any direct correlation.
I know you indulge in phenotypical differences among people. You should agree with me that these differences are caused by genetic inheritance from parents, races, different populations, ethnicities, etc. In this case, if you believe that genes are behind phenotypical differences of races in colours, shapes of head, nose, hair, etc, why would you think that all races have exactly same brains? If anything genetics tells us otherwise, and it would be quite big coincidence if all races had similar IQ to couple of points. I'm hoping for this coincidence, but so far many things point that my hopes are misplaced.
 
I am not a cultural relativist but I have to say that since the IQ test is a western construct, it seems unlikely that you could administer it to people from places where the styles of learning have always been very different (often oral rather than written) and expect them to do well.
 
I know you indulge in phenotypical differences among people. You should agree with me that these differences are caused by genetic inheritance from parents, races, different populations, ethnicities, etc. In this case, if you believe that genes are behind phenotypical differences of races in colours, shapes of head, nose, hair, etc, why would you think that all races have exactly same brains?
This is the main point. There are differences. It is perfectly logical. Even if IQ tests suck to find that out or variables cant be controlled for.

However we don't go any further because whilst it would work statistically it would discriminate individually. Because inter race variance might be much higher than one between the races.
 
However we don't go any further because whilst it would work statistically it would discriminate individually. Because inter race variance might be much higher than one between the races.

Most definitely. IQ tests are easier for people who have been educated in a certain fashion, consistent with high-quality Western education. The issue is, since those in the US with higher access to education tend to be whites, particularly those whose families have more money, this might skew group statistics.
 
IQ is the measure of ability to do IQ tests. E.G.Boring
The Flynn Effect (where IQ is seen to rise with each successive generation) implies that whatever IQ tests actually measure is a cultural artifact and can be learned. Clearly, environmental factors influence the variety of differing "intelligences" observed across the world.
 
The lowest achieving group in British schools is white working class. The highest achieving group in the Catholic girls' school, at which my wife teaches, is Nigerian and the lowest, the traveller community.
 

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