Is Turkey a Western country ? OFFTOPIC about Iberians

[Cambrius (The Red)]

As I have already told you, González-Pérez et al. (2010) is irrelevant because none of the samples were taken in Portugal.

Check Beleza et al. and others. read about autosomal DNA. You are out of your league. Stop ignoring what is inconvenient

Which university shall we start with?... Come on, I'm waiting.

[Woden]

My man, you know nothing at all about genetics.

We always knew long before genetics that the Portuguese are hybrid Afro-Iberians. It is plain history.



This is from the entry on Portugal in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:

... After 1450 yet another ethnical element was introduced into the nation, through the importation of African slaves in vast numbers. Negroid types are common throughout central and southern Portugal. No European race confronted with the problem of an immense coloured population has solved it more successfully than the Portuguese and their kinsmen in Brazil; in both countries intermarriage was freely resorted to, and the offspring of these mixed unions are superior in character and intelligence to most half-breeds. . .

The normal type evolved from this fusion of many races is dark-haired, sallow-skinned, browneyed and of low stature.

. . . in 1434 the first consignment of slaves was brought to Lisbon; and slave trading soon became one of the most profitable branches of Portuguese commerce.

In order to understand the apparently sudden collapse of Portuguese power in 1578—1580 it is necessary to examine certain facts and tendencies which from the first rendered a catastrophe inevitable. Chief among these were the extent of the empire and its organization, the financial and commercial policy of its rulers, the hostility, often wantonly provoked, of the chief Oriental states, the depopulation of Portugal and the slave trade, the expulsion of the Jews, the growth of ecclesiastical influence in secular affairs, and the decadence of the monarchy.

While the country was being drained of its best citizens, hordes of slaves were imported to fill the vacancies, especially into the southern provinces. Manual labour was Trade, thus discredited; the peasants sold their farms and emigrated or flocked to the towns; and small holdings were merged into vast estates, unscientifically cultivated by slaves and comparable with the latifundia which caused so many agrarian evils during the last two centuries of the Roman republic. The decadence of agriculture partly explains the prevalence of famine at a time when Portuguese maritime commerce was most prosperous. The Portuguese intermarried freely with their slaves, and this infusion of alien blood profoundly modified the character and physique of the nation. It may be said without exaggeration that the Portuguese of the “age of discoveries “ and the Portuguese of the 17th and later centuries were two different races.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The guy keeps referring to obsolete, methodologically suspect material. And, his historical sources are laughable. What a glutton for punishment...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

We always knew long before genetics that the Portuguese are hybrid Afro-Iberians. It is plain history.



This is from the entry on Portugal in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:

... After 1450 yet another ethnical element was introduced into the nation, through the importation of African slaves in vast numbers. Negroid types are common throughout central and southern Portugal. No European race confronted with the problem of an immense coloured population has solved it more successfully than the Portuguese and their kinsmen in Brazil; in both countries intermarriage was freely resorted to, and the offspring of these mixed unions are superior in character and intelligence to most half-breeds. . .

The normal type evolved from this fusion of many races is dark-haired, sallow-skinned, browneyed and of low stature.

. . . in 1434 the first consignment of slaves was brought to Lisbon; and slave trading soon became one of the most profitable branches of Portuguese commerce.

In order to understand the apparently sudden collapse of Portuguese power in 1578—1580 it is necessary to examine certain facts and tendencies which from the first rendered a catastrophe inevitable. Chief among these were the extent of the empire and its organization, the financial and commercial policy of its rulers, the hostility, often wantonly provoked, of the chief Oriental states, the depopulation of Portugal and the slave trade, the expulsion of the Jews, the growth of ecclesiastical influence in secular affairs, and the decadence of the monarchy.

While the country was being drained of its best citizens, hordes of slaves were imported to fill the vacancies, especially into the southern provinces. Manual labour was Trade, thus discredited; the peasants sold their farms and emigrated or flocked to the towns; and small holdings were merged into vast estates, unscientifically cultivated by slaves and comparable with the latifundia which caused so many agrarian evils during the last two centuries of the Roman republic. The decadence of agriculture partly explains the prevalence of famine at a time when Portuguese maritime commerce was most prosperous. The Portuguese intermarried freely with their slaves, and this infusion of alien blood profoundly modified the character and physique of the nation. It may be said without exaggeration that the Portuguese of the “age of discoveries “ and the Portuguese of the 17th and later centuries were two different races.

Repeating total rubbish from the 19th century... pathetic. Your done, toast. You have no intellectual credibility. Do you understand that, or are just too mentally ill to comprehend things?

[Woden]

The mtDNA or Y-DNA has nothing to do with admixture. The mtDNA or Y-DNA only tells you about one unbroken line not your whole ancestry like Autosomal does (600,000 SNP's).

We are not talking about 0.1% Afro mtdna in Portugal, we are talking about a massive 12% sub-Saharan mtdna in Portugal.

The idea that the genes of 12% of the population just vanished is a joke.

It is perfectly well known that Portugal imported masses of African slaves into its own country starting from the 15th century.

Their genes did not all just vanish like you wish. It produced the mulatto Afro-Iberian population of today.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

We are not talking about 0.1% Afro mtdna in Portugal, we are talking about a massive 12% sub-Saharan mtdna in Portugal.

The idea that the genes of 12% of the population just vanished is a joke.

It is perfectly well known that Portugal imported masses of African slaves into its own country starting from the 15th century.

Their genes did not all just vanish like you wish. It produced the mulatto Afro-Iberian population of today.

You are fabricating figures. True mt-DNA in Portugal averages out to about 4% and much of it is very old. Now you have resorted to manipulating facts and cheery picking information left and right. Give it up, already. You are an obsessed lunatic! What crazy thing are you trying to achieve? You are pathetic...

[Wilhelm]

We are not talking about 0.1% Afro mtdna in Portugal, we are talking about a massive 12% sub-Saharan mtdna in Portugal.
The idea that the genes of 12% of the population just vanished is a joke.
It is perfectly well known that Portugal imported masses of African slaves into its own country starting from the 15th century.
Their genes did not all just vanish like you wish. It produced the mulatto Afro-Iberian population of today.

12% of mtDNA does not mean 12% of admixture.. Come on, we know your IQ is not very high, but after so many times you still don't get it ?? This is like the 100th time we are telling you this.. .Plus this 12% figure is way over exaggerated
Portugal has the same African admixture as other european countries, read :

Auton et al. 2009 :
A similar study by Auton et al. 2009, which also contains an admixture analysis chart but no cluster membership coefficients, shows little to no sub-Saharan African influence in a wide array of European samples, i.e. Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Finns, Frenchmen, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Kosovars, Latvians, Macedonians, Netherlanders, Norwegians, Poles, Portuguese, Romanians, Russians, Scots, Serbians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes, Swiss (German, French and Italian), Ukrainians, United Kingdom and Yugoslavians.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

We are not talking about 0.1% Afro mtdna in Portugal, we are talking about a massive 12% sub-Saharan mtdna in Portugal.

The idea that the genes of 12% of the population just vanished is a joke.

It is perfectly well known that Portugal imported masses of African slaves into its own country starting from the 15th century.

Their genes did not all just vanish like you wish. It produced the mulatto Afro-Iberian population of today.

You believe the codswallop on Wikipedia that has been manipulated left and right by brain-damaged people like yourself? What a complete idiot you are.

Your done, turkey... Which university shall we start with? Should I have someone call or e-mail you from Columbia or Yale? Stop the crap already...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

12% of mtDNA does not mean 12% of admixture.. Come on, we know your IQ is not very high, but after so many times you still don't get it ?? This is like the 100th time we are telling you this.. .Plus this 12% figure is way over exaggerated
Portugal has the same African admixture as other european countries, read :

Auton et al. 2009 :
A similar study by Auton et al. 2009, which also contains an admixture analysis chart but no cluster membership coefficients, shows little to no sub-Saharan African influence in a wide array of European samples, i.e. Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Finns, Frenchmen, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Kosovars, Latvians, Macedonians, Netherlanders, Norwegians, Poles, Portuguese, Romanians, Russians, Scots, Serbians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes, Swiss (German, French and Italian), Ukrainians, United Kingdom and Yugoslavians.

LOL. 12%. I wonder what kind of calculator he is using?

The highest Portuguese SS mt-DNA frequencies - they are suspect because some samplings were not representative (ever hear of Alcacer do Sal?) - in mainland Portugal were recorded in Southern Portugal (Alentejo and Algarve), which comprises only about 9% of the total population. The frequency was around 11%. What is interesting is that, with each advancement in genetic science, the total SS mt-DNA total keeps going down. Hmmmm.

[Woden]

12% of mtDNA does not mean 12% of admixture..

In reality the levels of sub-Saharan autosomal DNA in Spain closely matches the levels of sub-Saharan mtdna.

The same is likely true in Portugal giving 12% sub-Saharan admixture in the south of Portugal.

Note: this is autosomal...

Characterizing the history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into southern Europe.

P. Moorjani1, N. Patterson2, J. Hirschhorn1,3, D. Reich1,2 1) Department of Genetics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA; 2) Broad Institute, Cambridge, MA; 3) Divisions of Endocrinology and Genetics and Program in Genomics, Children's Hospital, Boston, MA.

Recent analyses of whole-genome SNP data sets have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African ancestral contribution into southern Europe but not in northern Europe, consistent with previous analyses based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA.

However, there has been no characterization of the proportion of African admixture in southern Europe, or of its date. Here we analyze data from ~450,000 autosomal SNPs in the Population Reference Sample, ~650,000 SNPs from the Human Genome Diversity Panel, and ~1.5 million SNPs from the HapMap Phase 3 Project, and studied patterns of correlation in allele frequencies across populations to confirm the evidence of African ancestry in many southern European populations but not in northern Europeans.

Using methods that can infer admixture proportions in the absence of accurate ancestral populations, we estimated that the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Spain is 2.4 +/- 0.3%, in Tuscany 1.5 +/- 0.3%, and in Greece 1.9 +/- 0.7% (1 standard error). We also studied the decay of admixture linkage disequilibrium with genetic distance, which provided a preliminary estimate of the date of African gene flow into Spain of roughly 60 generations ago, or about 1,700 years ago assuming 28 years per generation. This date is consistent with the historically known movement of individuals of North African ancestry into Spain, although it is possible that this estimate also reflects a wider range of mixture times.

[Wilhelm]

Oh..Wikpedia , all the nordicist/afrocentrist jerks manipulate the genetics articles, and if you try to edit them, they will block your IP...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

In reality the levels of sub-Saharan autosomal DNA in Spain closely matches the levels of sub-Saharan mtdna. The same is likely true in Portugal.
Note: this is autosomal...
Characterizing the history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into southern Europe.
P. Moorjani1, N. Patterson2, J. Hirschhorn1,3, D. Reich1,2 1) Department of Genetics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA; 2) Broad Institute, Cambridge, MA; 3) Divisions of Endocrinology and Genetics and Program in Genomics, Children's Hospital, Boston, MA.
Recent analyses of whole-genome SNP data sets have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African ancestral contribution into southern Europe but not in northern Europe, consistent with previous analyses based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA.
However, there has been no characterization of the proportion of African admixture in southern Europe, or of its date. Here we analyze data from ~450,000 autosomal SNPs in the Population Reference Sample, ~650,000 SNPs from the Human Genome Diversity Panel, and ~1.5 million SNPs from the HapMap Phase 3 Project, and studied patterns of correlation in allele frequencies across populations to confirm the evidence of African ancestry in many southern European populations but not in northern Europeans.
Using methods that can infer admixture proportions in the absence of accurate ancestral populations, we estimated that the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Spain is 2.4 +/- 0.3%, in Tuscany 1.5 +/- 0.3%, and in Greece 1.9 +/- 0.7% (1 standard error). We also studied the decay of admixture linkage disequilibrium with genetic distance, which provided a preliminary estimate of the date of African gene flow into Spain of roughly 60 generations ago, or about 1,700 years ago assuming 28 years per generation. This date is consistent with the historically known movement of individuals of North African ancestry into Spain, although it is possible that this estimate also reflects a wider range of mixture times.

More manipulated nonsense from Wikipedia. Unbelievable...

[Wilhelm]

confirm the evidence of African ancestry in many southern European populations but not in northern Europeans. .

Wrong.

Rosenberg et al. 2002 and Wilson et al. 2001 found 1% of autosomal in Norwegians.

Another study that shows Spain has less than Germany african admixture :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/




More studies :

Two studies by Rosenberg et al. 2002 and Wilson et al. 2001 failed to detect any sub-Saharan admixture in Scots (from Orkney), Russians, Basques, Frenchmen or Italians (from Lombardy, Tuscany and Sardinia), while 1% was observed in Norwegians. More recently, Bauchet et al. 2007 tested several European groups for black admixture, and while cluster membership coefficients are not provided, the chart of Bayesian cluster results shows admixture levels to be equally low in Greeks, Spaniards (from Valencia), Basques, Frenchmen, Southern Italians, East English, West Irish, Poles, Germans (from Hanover) and Finns.

A similar study by Auton et al. 2009, which also contains an admixture analysis chart but no cluster membership coefficients, shows little to no sub-Saharan African influence in a wide array of European samples, i.e. Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Finns, Frenchmen, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Kosovars, Latvians, Macedonians, Netherlanders, Norwegians, Poles, Portuguese, Romanians, Russians, Scots, Serbians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes, Swiss (German, French and Italian), Ukrainians, United Kingdom and Yugoslavians.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Wrong.

Rosenberg et al. 2002 and Wilson et al. 2001 found 1% of autosomal in Norwegians.

Another study that shows Spain has less than Germany african admixture :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/




More studies :

Two studies by Rosenberg et al. 2002 and Wilson et al. 2001 failed to detect any sub-Saharan admixture in Scots (from Orkney), Russians, Basques, Frenchmen or Italians (from Lombardy, Tuscany and Sardinia), while 1% was observed in Norwegians. More recently, Bauchet et al. 2007 tested several European groups for black admixture, and while cluster membership coefficients are not provided, the chart of Bayesian cluster results shows admixture levels to be equally low in Greeks, Spaniards (from Valencia), Basques, Frenchmen, Southern Italians, East English, West Irish, Poles, Germans (from Hanover) and Finns.

A similar study by Auton et al. 2009, which also contains an admixture analysis chart but no cluster membership coefficients, shows little to no sub-Saharan African influence in a wide array of European samples, i.e. Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Finns, Frenchmen, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Kosovars, Latvians, Macedonians, Netherlanders, Norwegians, Poles, Portuguese, Romanians, Russians, Scots, Serbians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes, Swiss (German, French and Italian), Ukrainians, United Kingdom and Yugoslavians.

This pretty much sums it up. The 2009 study tells the real story. As I have said before, as genetic science becomes more refined, a good deal of the older research will be proven inaccurate. Case closed.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

CASE CLOSED!

Beleza et al. 2005

Auton et al. 2009

[Woden]

My man, you know nothing at all about genetics. You can think whatever crazy rubbish you want but it is exceedingly clear that you have no intellectual standing whatsoever...

Which university do we start with, genius?...

The Portuguese ebonics showing through there.

Whats that showing from beneath the white table cloth in this fifteenth century Portuguese painting? Your own ancestors left you a message.

[Wilhelm]

You don't have much time here left..Bye bye Woden, now take your medication...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The Portuguese ebonics showing through there.
Whats that showing from beneath the white table cloth in this fifteenth century Portuguese painting? Your own ancestors left you a message.

Beleza et al. 2005

Auton et al. 2009

CASE CLOSED!

Now, which research university shall we contact first?

[Cambrius (The Red)]

CASE CLOSED!

Find another pastime Woden.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

CASE CLOSED!

Which research university shall we contact first?...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

CASE CLOSED!

Which university genetics department gets contacted first?

[LeBrok]

We always knew long before genetics that the Portuguese are hybrid Afro-Iberians. It is plain history.



This is from the entry on Portugal in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:

... After 1450 yet another ethnical element was introduced into the nation, through the importation of African slaves in vast numbers. Negroid types are common throughout central and southern Portugal. No European race confronted with the problem of an immense coloured population has solved it more successfully than the Portuguese and their kinsmen in Brazil; in both countries intermarriage was freely resorted to, and the offspring of these mixed unions are superior in character and intelligence to most half-breeds. . .

The normal type evolved from this fusion of many races is dark-haired, sallow-skinned, browneyed and of low stature.

. . . in 1434 the first consignment of slaves was brought to Lisbon; and slave trading soon became one of the most profitable branches of Portuguese commerce.

In order to understand the apparently sudden collapse of Portuguese power in 1578—1580 it is necessary to examine certain facts and tendencies which from the first rendered a catastrophe inevitable. Chief among these were the extent of the empire and its organization, the financial and commercial policy of its rulers, the hostility, often wantonly provoked, of the chief Oriental states, the depopulation of Portugal and the slave trade, the expulsion of the Jews, the growth of ecclesiastical influence in secular affairs, and the decadence of the monarchy.

While the country was being drained of its best citizens, hordes of slaves were imported to fill the vacancies, especially into the southern provinces. Manual labour was Trade, thus discredited; the peasants sold their farms and emigrated or flocked to the towns; and small holdings were merged into vast estates, unscientifically cultivated by slaves and comparable with the latifundia which caused so many agrarian evils during the last two centuries of the Roman republic. The decadence of agriculture partly explains the prevalence of famine at a time when Portuguese maritime commerce was most prosperous. The Portuguese intermarried freely with their slaves, and this infusion of alien blood profoundly modified the character and physique of the nation. It may be said without exaggeration that the Portuguese of the “age of discoveries “ and the Portuguese of the 17th and later centuries were two different races.

Could same thing brought down Roman Empire?

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Could same thing brought down Roman Empire?

LeBrock, why would you feed in to such nonsense? Don't try to be a comedian...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

CASE CLOSED!

The research universities are waiting...

[Gwyllgi]

Since we share so much of our DNA with chimps (and a good percentage with daffodils) isn’t arguing about who had it off with whom in the past a bit like arguing about the number of angels that can fit on the point of a needle?

In reality it’s as arcane (and probably of less use) than the sort of stuff to be found typically at

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1052.htm

Does it really matter a hot damm where our genes were forged? Surely the thing that is important is what we are like today.

Anyway, I LIKE Portugal.

And the Portuguese.

OK they’re a bit ready to splash olive oil onto anything they intend to eat, or otherwise use in some biological process and they, like many other Mediterranean folk, tend to sling anything they’ve caught in a fishing net into a cauldron, add tomatoes, garlic, onions and loads of yet more olive oil, and serve it up at any time of day or night, but so what?

It’s not so much where you’ve come from. It’s useful and even interesting to know, but what really matters is what you’re like, and where you’re going.

And that takes us back to the thread title, it also provides an answer to the question the thread raises, and that answer is a resounding NO.