R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

Haplogroups don't equate ethnolinguistic genesis. R1b is not necessary IE or others (basque-iberian....), it's only mutations in the Y-chromosome. People interbreed and we don't know which was the ethnolinguistic adscription of its first carrier when the mutation took place. Let's say the same haplogroup can correspond to diverse linguistic strata from the "very first" (some generations of men moving from here to there, mixing with other human populations, converging and diverging lanuages....)
 
Thanks Wilhelm.

I did say south (all south) and south-east but was referring to phenotypes.
Well, we're still in disagreement.

Greetings.
 
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Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?
 
Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?

The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.
 
The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.
Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.
 
Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.

Yes, Bell Beaker first appeared in southern Portugal.
 
Thanks Cambria.

Lorrio and Zapatero about the Celts in Iberia :

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.pdf

Thanks. The University of Wisconsin has published several excellent Iberian Celtic studies.

Cunliffe and Koch's ongoing U. Wales project may radically transform notions of Celticity, shifting origins and expansion to the Atlantic Facade. It is becoming increasingly clear that Celticity originated from Bell Beaker culture in SW Iberia.

Genetically, it seems that P312 is the "mother" Celtic subclade, found predominantly in the Atlantic Facade, Germany and some Alpine regions. The latest research on P312 should reveal new alleles, shedding additional light on Celtic circulation patterns between the Atlantic, Gaul and central European areas.
 
Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand
that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more
information about the so-called Northwest Block?

The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne. Maybe the
Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe. But where did the real
Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?

It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the
east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine? Tacitus wrote
that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?

I am very interested to know much more about the arrival of the
Germanic tribes in the Netherlands. Was there also a kind of relation
with the Swedish and Norwegian tribes? When did the Germanic speaking
tribes arrive in Scandinavia? Before them did there Sami tribes live?
 
The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I've never read of traces of any Celtic language having ever been found in Southern German, Austria or Switzerland.

I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about 500 BC.
A theory is that the Celts might have expand from the Iberian Peninsula. The expansion of the Celts from La Tene is an idea proposed in the nineteenth century, with little evidence, but which it has been assumed as right until recently, for the lack of other proposals.

Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.
"blond" is a trait that has highest frequencies among the Finns, a largely Uralic people.

It depends on how far you are willing to stretch the idea of European, to consider the Uralics as such. Different peoples view things differently.

Blondness is a generally misunderstood concept when reading ancient sources. Then, like now, among populations with high frequencies of dark brown and black hair, lighter tones of brown would be seen as "blond".

Besides, it is not true that the populations of those countries traditionally said to be Celtic have any majority of blond haired people. See Wales, Cornwall or Brittany. And in England it can be argued that most blondness came with the Saxon invasions.

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British, Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.
Define "related".

I don't think that the frequencies of R1b in Netherlands or in Denmark are that high for using them to decide what accounts as R1b.
 
Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more information about the so-called Northwest Block?
I've heard something, but not much. It's only a proposal for a group of western people north of the Celtic peoples, but still unrelated to the Germanic peoples.
East of the Rhine there were Germanic peoples at the time of the Classic Age.

The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne.
At which time? In early times they lived west of the Rhine.

Maybe the Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe.
I think that all that can be said is that the Belgae were a western people. Definitely not German.

But where did the real Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?
If looking at the archetypical Germanic, there are traits that resemble much the archetypical Slavic.

It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine?
There is no "north" of the Rhine. It is east of the Rhine that sometimes is said north of it.

Tacitus wrote that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?
The Germanics were already pushing towards the west at the time when the Romans arrived there. So the Romans would have found some Germanic tribesmen already settled west of the Rhine.
 
Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.

Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.
 
Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.
Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.

Herodotus wrote no such thing! Where are you getting your information from? What are you actually trying to say? Please, be clear on your facts.

Horodotus was very confused about geography - not unlike many other scholars in his day - and he believed the source of the River Danube was in the Pyrenees where possibly some of the Keltoi (Celts) tribes dwelled. But he saw the core Celtic land further west.

Here is exactly what he wrote about the Celts and Celtic lands:

Segment 2.34

I am willing to believe that [the Nile] rises at the same distance from its mouth as the [Danube], which has its source amongst the Keltoi at Pyrene and flows right through the middle of Europe, to reach the Black Sea at Mileto's colony of Istri. The Keltoi live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [the Straights of Gibraltar], near the Kunesioi who are the most westerly people of Europe

Segment 4.48

...the [Danube], that mighty stream which, rising amongst the Keltoi the most westerly, after the Kunetes, of all the European nations, traverses the whole length of the continent before it enters Scythia.

[adapted from translations of de Selincourt]

Herodotus was obviously referring to the Keltoi (Celts) as occupying what is today far southern Portugal and southwest Spain.

The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.

And why do you keep insisting that Celts were predominantly fair haired people? There is no real evidence buttressing that mode of thinking. The Celts were quite likely mainly brown haired and, on average, similar to the large majority of the Atlantic Facade types found today.
 
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Imagino que Herodoto se refería a los que de toda la vida se les ha llamado los célticos.
 

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