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Thread: origin of Celtic and Germanic tribes

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    origin of Celtic and Germanic tribes



    With big surprise and interests I read that according to the newest opinion
    the Celtic culture and tribes came from the Iberian Peninsula. From there
    they went to the British Island.

    As you know the R1b Celtic tribes (like other Indo-Europena tribes) arose about 3000 BC from the area north of the Caucasus. These tribes went through south Russia to Hungary and Austria. One group split in the so called Italic tribes and the other became the Celts who went to Spain. Did the Spanish Celtic tribes go to France and Switserland? It was assumend that this country, East-France and South-Germany were the areas in which the Celtic culture arose.

    If the Celtic culture arose in Iberia which tribes did live in Switserland and
    south Germany? Ancient Germanic tribes? According to the archeologists
    and pre-historians the Germanic had an origin in the Jastorf Culture and
    not in Scandinavia.

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    Irish history's answer

    A traditional Irish history called "The Book of the Taking of Ireland"
    states that the 'Gaels' came from Spain. Both DNA and linguistic evidence indicate slight relationships with the Basques.
    The origins of the Irish however are complex and the Gaels form only a part of the makeup of that people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post

    As you know the R1b Celtic tribes (like other Indo-Europena tribes) arose about 3000 BC from the area north of the Caucasus.
    This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
    Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
    and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
    Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
    and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .
    Many of the 19th century notions concerning Indo-Europeans origins have been disproved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
    Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
    and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .
    Willy you are a very comic guy!!
    I have already told you that, but you don't understand what you read, and you don't understand what you write
    Nobody says that germans or celts lived in India or Iran
    R1b1b2 ht15 live in occidental europe. They arrived here around 5.000 years ago in copper age.
    Their ancestors R1b1b2 ht35 came from west asia during Indo european migrations from pontic steppes.

    From wikipedia:
    • In the Caucasus, haplogroup R1b may be found in 43% of Ossetian males[58] and in as many as 32.4% (238/734 P-92R7(xR1a1-SRY10831b))[81] to 36% (17/47 R1-M173(xR1a1a-M17))[65] of Armenians. It also has been found with lower frequency among Georgians (6/66 = 9.1% R1b1b2-M269[82] to 9/63 = 14.3% R1-M173(xR1a1a-M17)[83]) and Balkarians (2/38 = 5.3% R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) and 3/38 = 7.9% R1b1b2-M269 for a total of 5/38 = 13.2% R1b[82]).


    Last edited by secherbernard; 10-06-10 at 10:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by secherbernard View Post
    Willy you are a very comic guy!!
    I have already told you that, but you don't understand what you read, and you don't understand what you write
    Nobody says that germans or celts lived in India or Iran
    R1b1b2 ht15 live in occidental europe. They arrived here around 5.000 years ago in copper age.
    Their ancestors R1b1b2 ht35 came from west asia during Indo european migrations from pontic steppes.

    From wikipedia:
    Just talking about R1b1b2 ht15 found on Western Europe : Celtic tribes Irish etc ... or Germanic but a little bit less on Germany it depends where you are anyway : if you can't read ht15 I can't do nothing else for you I don't talk about R1a or ht35 with your little game of ancestors we come all from Africa and I agree : this is true. Last thing : add 3000 or 4000 years to your supposed age of R1b1b2 in Europe this is not the Bronze age but the neolithic farmers .Of course some subclades of ht15 are younger than 8000 years ago but they appear in Western Europe NOT in the eastern steppes . I do not agree with the idea to give one haplogroup as you said (R1b1b2) to the Indo European first speakers : This is ridiculous . Proto-Indo-European was however an offshoot of Pre-Proto-Indo-European which was the language of the early farmers who crossed the Aegean from Anatolia to settle in Thessaly. There, and in their subsequent northern expansion was formed the Proto-Indo-European community which subsequently gave birth to all the historical Indo-European languages, while those of Anatolia (Hittite, Luwian and Palaic) are actually an off-shoot of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European group that stayed behind. You need some knowledge in your head man !
    Last edited by willy; 10-06-10 at 13:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Just talking about R1b1b2 ht15 found on Western Europe : Celtic tribes Irish etc ... or Germanic but a little bit less on Germany it depends where you are anyway : if you can't read ht15 I can't do nothing else for you I don't talk about R1a or ht35 with your little game of ancestors we come all from Africa and I agree : this is true. Last thing : add 3000 or 4000 years to your supposed age of R1b1b2 in Europe this is not the Bronze age but the neolithic farmers .Of course some subclades of ht15 are younger than 8000 years ago but they appear in Western Europe NOT in the eastern steppes .
    All the subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 (P312 and U106) in western europe emerged in copper age. There is no trace of R1b1b2 in western Europe before copper age. Before copper age, R1b1b2 was in West Asia.
    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    I do not agree with the idea to give one haplogroup as you said (R1b1b2) to the Indo European first speakers : This is ridiculous . Proto-Indo-European was however an offshoot of Pre-Proto-Indo-European which was the language of the early farmers who crossed the Aegean from Anatolia to settle in Thessaly. There, and in their subsequent northern expansion was formed the Proto-Indo-European community which subsequently gave birth to all the historical Indo-European languages, while those of Anatolia (Hittite, Luwian and Palaic) are actually an off-shoot of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European group that stayed behind.
    Hittite, Luwian and Palaic arrived in Anatolia in 3rd millenium BC. Read books Willy! (Bernard Sergent, James Mallory, David Anthony, ...). At least this: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    All the arguments linguistics, archeologics or mythologics show that proto IE came frome Pontic Steppe in copper age.
    Just a few examples among many others:
    Linguistic: roots of name copper are the same in different IE languages
    Archeologics: celtic barrows are similar to Steppe barrows from yamnaya culture
    Mythologic: The mythology of European neolithic is based on the mother goddess in a matriarcal society. the mythology of IE is based on male gods in a patriarcal society. This patriarcal society is born in a herders society, not an agricultural one.
    The only one argument of Colin Renfrew is based on migration: IE expansion is a migration, neolithization of Europe is a migration. It is a wrong argument. Neolitic migration was not the only one migration in Europe!

    These proto IE who lived in Pontic Steppes were real people. They had DNA. As all people they have many Y-DNA haplogroups. I think the main Y-DNA haplogroups of these people were R1a and R1b.
    Last edited by secherbernard; 10-06-10 at 16:13.

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    Thank you but when I go on your link I can read : "Des informations de cet article ou section devraient être mieux reliées aux sources mentionnées dans la bibliographie" Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must to know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture. Gimbutas's theory does not explain the DNA shift on people of Iran - South Asia - India and Western Europeans so as you know both of them speak Indo-European languages. In other words : If Gimbutas is right it should be the same Indo European people settlement on the East and West. Let me tell you Bernard these ht15 subclades appear in Western Europe and long time before the cooper age. R1b1b2 was NOT on West Asia . The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European history, this is just a atificial cleavage but I agree : very easy to understand, simple so just not real .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture.
    Why is that?
    I would bat it can be independent. Nomads have domesticated animals and no agriculture.
    You can have goats, cows, horses that eat grass around the house, and don't require agriculture/grains to be fed.

    I would even claim that herding came first as it is much easier to keep animal in pens (chickens) or goats in fenced area than learn how to plow fields, harvest and thrash the grain.
    Most likely it was related to the climate of the area. In dry steppe it was easier to heard animals. In India and fertile crescent was easy to grow grain.

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    People who have used the breeding have been farmers. Agriculture is first . The Indus or Harappan Civilization was based on agricultural surplus all great civilizations were around a river as Nil Indus etc .. Farmers need water not difficult to understand . Egyptians were farmers and later some of them warrios and rulers the opposition " farmers - warriors" did not make sense for a homogeneous nation . Agriculture involves the settlement and the development of animal domestication then comes the horse plow other life styles and social organizations that may separate farmers .

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    To domesticate goats, sheep or cows you need grass around your house or tent.
    Why do you need agriculture to domesticate these?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Thank you but when I go on your link I can read : "Des informations de cet article ou section devraient être mieux reliées aux sources mentionnées dans la bibliographie" Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must to know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture. Gimbutas's theory does not explain the DNA shift on people of Iran - South Asia - India and Western Europeans so as you know both of them speak Indo-European languages. In other words : If Gimbutas is right it should be the same Indo European people settlement on the East and West. Let me tell you Bernard these ht15 subclades appear in Western Europe and long time before the cooper age. R1b1b2 was NOT on West Asia . The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European history, this is just a atificial cleavage but I agree : very easy to understand, simple so just not real .
    I have already given the sources:
    Bernard Sergent: "Les Indo Europens"
    James Mallory "In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth"
    David Anthony "
    The horse, the wheel and Language"
    Your problem Willy, is that you never read books, but just read some web pages written by every body.
    And you assert always the same things without any argument.
    When you write:
    The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European history
    It is a huge mistake. That's prove you know nothing about IE. Read books Willy! and begin by Dumezil and his trifunctionnal theory.
    Last edited by secherbernard; 11-06-10 at 10:41.

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    Ok Bernard I will give you some argument later, I know Dumezil and Gimbutas 's theory
    The tri functionnal theory : priests, warriors producers (farmers) basis of the I.E ideology so the opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense for I.E . 3 functions complement each ... you must to understand it when you read something .

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    Lebrok : To domesticate animals you need to understand how plants grow. Then you can choose to become a pastor

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Ok Bernard I will give you some argument later, I know Dumezil and Gimbutas 's theory
    The tri functionnal theory : priests, warriors producers (farmers) basis of the I.E ideology so the opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense for I.E . 3 functions complement each ... you must to understand it when you read something .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Lebrok : To domesticate animals you need to understand how plants grow. Then you can choose to become a pastor
    ...

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    http://www.jstor.org/pss/27579985
    Métiers et classes fonctionnelles chez divers peuples indo-européens <LI class=author>Georges Dumézil Annales. Histoire, Sciences Sociales, 13e Année, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1958), pp. 716-724
    (article consists of 9 pages) Published by: EHESS

    About the origin of R1b1b2 ht15 you must read this :
    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000285

    "The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic" CQFD

    http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bsecher/Genetique.htm
    "L'haplogroupe R1b1b2 serait arrivé en Europe centrale il y a 4.500 ou 5.000 ans"
    you should revise your copy ...

    I wonder if you are researcher in genetics or rather a reader of popularization of science ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/27579985
    Métiers et classes fonctionnelles chez divers peuples indo-européens <LI class=author>Georges Dumézil Annales. Histoire, Sciences Sociales, 13e Année, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1958), pp. 716-724
    (article consists of 9 pages) Published by: EHESS
    Wondereful Willy, you are able to use google!! In fact I never doubted you are the king of google!

    You better read books Willy!
    And what is is written in the books ?
    It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others.

    It is not me who tell that, it is Gimbutas, Sergent, Mallory, Anthony, Lebedynsky, and so on... Read books Willy and stop google...

    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    About the origin of R1b1b2 ht15 you must read this :
    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000285

    "The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic" CQFD
    I have discussed with you many time about Balaresque paper. They are many pb in that paper.
    1) The error windows of balaresque data is so great that it is impossible to know if R1b1b2 migration arrived during copper age or neolithic time.
    2) Balaresque takes only one point in east: in Anatolia. It is difficult to know the origine of migration with only one point!!
    In fact the main interest of Balaresque paper is that it tell us that R1b1b2 is not arrived in Europe during paleolithic times. It is a great progress, because before that many scientific papers told that R1b1b2 was paleolithic in Europe.
    In fact, there are many data in FTDNA R1b projects: hundreds and hundreds of samples. Surely much more than the Balaresque data...
    You can ask to the FTDNA administrators of these groups: P312, L21, U152, U106.
    All the R1b1b2 data show that R1b1b2 emerged in Western Europe during copper age.

    I hope soon, scientific researchers will contact aministrators of FTDNA projects to use all these data. It will be a great progress. From my knowledge, there is one scientific Anatole Klyosov who worked with Richard Stevens, the FTDNA administrator of P312 and L21 projects. Klyosov results confirm that R1b1b2 arrived in western Europe during copper age. See - "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome": http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

    Balaresque doesn't speak in her paper of P312 or U106!! What great forgetting!! But we cannot forget that there were many SNP discoveries in the last years, and we must wait for several years before scientifics take account all these new discoveries...

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    Quote Originally Posted by secherbernard View Post
    You better read books Willy!
    And what is is written in the books ?
    It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others
    Here is a guy who has balls ! too Manichean man and still observed in all human cultures
    Indo European is a family of langages not a "cowboys Indians" game
    All the R1b1b2 data show that R1b1b2 emerged in Western Europe during copper age.
    Right I agree for some subclades with "emerged" not "arrived " you got it ? I have serious doubts about your sense of nuance .


    Balaresque doesn't speak in her paper of P312 or U106!! What great forgetting!! ...
    "what great forgetting !!" Yeah a great bullshit hun ! you are too funny you should give lessons to Balaresque send her an email Patricia will appreciate your help
    Last edited by willy; 12-06-10 at 01:30.

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    Just I read the article in DNA Genealogy written history.
    I understand that the haplogroup R1a arose about 20.000 years ago
    in Siberia. After it the bearers of R1a went to the Balkan. The bearers
    split in some directions: some went to Russia and others went to Middle-,
    West- and North-Europe. So the ancestors of the haplogroups R1a in
    Scandinavia, Germany and the British Islands did not come from Russia
    (as I used to read), but from the Balkan. Is this correct? So the origin of
    the Germanic languages lays not in south Russia, but in the Balkan.

    And what about the origin of the haplogroup I? Is there a relation with
    R1a?

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    1) Haplogroup I :

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28Y-DNA%29.jpg

    Time of origin25,000-30,000 years BP
    Place of origin Europe or Asia Minor
    AncestorIJDescendantsI1, I2
    Defining mutationsM170, M258, P19, P38, P212, U179Highest frequenciesCroats 45% (North)- 74% (South)[1], Bosniaks 48%[1], Norwegians 40%[2][3], Sardinians 37%[4]-42%[2], Swedes 26% (North)[2]-50% (Gotland & Värmland)[5], Danes 39%[2][6], Germans 37.5%[7], Serbs 36% (Serbia[8], Bosnia[1]), Icelanders 33%, Finns 20% (Eastern)[9]-41% (Western)[9], Hungarians 11%[7]-28%[10], Macedonia 20%[7]-25%, Netherlands 25%, England +20%, Romanians/Moldovans 22%[2]-48% (Buhuşi & Piatra Neamţ)[11], Bulgaria +20%

    2) Haplogroup R1a :

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28Y-DNA%29.jpg

    Time of originprobably more recent than 18,500 years BP [1]
    Place of originAsia, probably South Asia. Other possibilities include Central Asia, Middle East, and Eastern Europe.
    AncestorR1 (R-M173)DescendantsR1a1a1 to R1a1a8. R-M458 being the most significant (R1a1a7 in Underhill et al. (2009)).
    Defining mutations1. M420 now defines R1a in the broadest sense.[2]
    2. Within R1a, SRY1532.2 also known as SRY10831.2, now defines R1a1, previously R1a.
    3. M17 and M198 (equivalent to one another) now define R1a1a, previously R1a1, and often referred to as if equal to R1a.Highest frequenciesParts of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Central Asia, Siberia and South Asia. (See List of R1a frequency by population)


    http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/uyger2.jpg

    M9 lineage = K, L (M20), M (P256), NO (M214) (N and O), P (M45) (Q and R), S (M230) and T (M70)
    M130 = C1, C2, C3, C4, C5
    YAP = all E, D
    M89 = G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), K
    M45 = P
    M173 = R1
    M17 = R1a

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    Many thanks for your information. It is for me clearer.
    But I do not understand: does the R1a of the Scandinavians and
    the inhabitants of the British Island originate in the Balkan or Russia?
    According to newest discoveries in the Balkan.

    And the haplogroup I: is there a prove that it has his origin
    in southwest France? What has happened with Cro-Magons
    and Aurignacs?

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    About I , well ... I think they are gone firstly in Europe may be also scandinavia but during the ice age they went in the southern europe (the Balkan) anyway the first place origin was Asia minor.
    The highest frequency of the I Haplogroup can be found in Scandinavian and Croatian populations. This lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum. The hypothesis states that after the LGM there was a migration from the north east by the people whose offspring today form a significant portion of the Scandinavian populations. These groups seem to be the ancestors of about 38% of modern day Croats (75% of Bosnian Croats). There are also indications that this haplogroup is tied to the Celtic culture. The spread of the I group in western Europe could be consistent with the Celtic expansion that occurred in the mid-first millennium BC. We have no prove about I in southwest of France About Cro Magnon he seems to be the ancestor of the europeans as haplo I
    that I and J are especially connected and are considered to have had a common origin. "The mutation of IJ corresponds to a second Out of Africa wave some 45 kya that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon)." and about Aurignac I don't know ?

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    Many thanks for answering my questions. But when the bearers of R1a came
    from Siberia to the Balkan, did the bearers of haplogroup R1a (the
    ancestors of the Scandinavians and British) go direct to the northwest?
    I used to think that the bearers of Scandinavian and British R1a originated
    in the Ukraine. So the Germanics had an origin in the Balkan Peninsula.

    Erik

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    Yes I think also that Ukraine is the good place for R1a germanic - Scandianvian - origin

    Nico

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