origin of Celtic and Germanic tribes

1) Haplogroup I :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Haplogroup_IJ_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

Time of origin25,000-30,000 years BP
Place of origin Europe or Asia Minor
AncestorIJDescendantsI1, I2
Defining mutationsM170, M258, P19, P38, P212, U179Highest frequenciesCroats 45% (North)- 74% (South)[1], Bosniaks 48%[1], Norwegians 40%[2][3], Sardinians 37%[4]-42%[2], Swedes 26% (North)[2]-50% (Gotland & Värmland)[5], Danes 39%[2][6], Germans 37.5%[7], Serbs 36% (Serbia[8], Bosnia[1]), Icelanders 33%, Finns 20% (Eastern)[9]-41% (Western)[9], Hungarians 11%[7]-28%[10], Macedonia 20%[7]-25%, Netherlands 25%, England +20%, Romanians/Moldovans 22%[2]-48% (Buhuşi & Piatra Neamţ)[11], Bulgaria +20%

2) Haplogroup R1a :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA).jpg

Time of originprobably more recent than 18,500 years BP [1]
Place of originAsia, probably South Asia. Other possibilities include Central Asia, Middle East, and Eastern Europe.
AncestorR1 (R-M173)DescendantsR1a1a1 to R1a1a8. R-M458 being the most significant (R1a1a7 in Underhill et al. (2009)).
Defining mutations1. M420 now defines R1a in the broadest sense.[2]
2. Within R1a, SRY1532.2 also known as SRY10831.2, now defines R1a1, previously R1a.
3. M17 and M198 (equivalent to one another) now define R1a1a, previously R1a1, and often referred to as if equal to R1a.Highest frequenciesParts of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Central Asia, Siberia and South Asia. (See List of R1a frequency by population)


http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/uyger2.jpg

M9 lineage = K, L (M20), M (P256), NO (M214) (N and O), P (M45) (Q and R), S (M230) and T (M70)
M130 = C1, C2, C3, C4, C5
YAP = all E, D
M89 = G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), K
M45 = P
M173 = R1
M17 = R1a
 
Many thanks for your information. It is for me clearer.
But I do not understand: does the R1a of the Scandinavians and
the inhabitants of the British Island originate in the Balkan or Russia?
According to newest discoveries in the Balkan.

And the haplogroup I: is there a prove that it has his origin
in southwest France? What has happened with Cro-Magons
and Aurignacs?
 
About I , well ... I think they are gone firstly in Europe may be also scandinavia but during the ice age they went in the southern europe (the Balkan) anyway the first place origin was Asia minor.
The highest frequency of the I Haplogroup can be found in Scandinavian and Croatian populations. This lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum. The hypothesis states that after the LGM there was a migration from the north east by the people whose offspring today form a significant portion of the Scandinavian populations. These groups seem to be the ancestors of about 38% of modern day Croats (75% of Bosnian Croats). There are also indications that this haplogroup is tied to the Celtic culture. The spread of the I group in western Europe could be consistent with the Celtic expansion that occurred in the mid-first millennium BC. We have no prove about I in southwest of France About Cro Magnon he seems to be the ancestor of the europeans as haplo I
that I and J are especially connected and are considered to have had a common origin. "The mutation of IJ corresponds to a second Out of Africa wave some 45 kya that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon)." and about Aurignac I don't know ?
 
Many thanks for answering my questions. But when the bearers of R1a came
from Siberia to the Balkan, did the bearers of haplogroup R1a (the
ancestors of the Scandinavians and British) go direct to the northwest?
I used to think that the bearers of Scandinavian and British R1a originated
in the Ukraine. So the Germanics had an origin in the Balkan Peninsula.

Erik
 
Yes I think also that Ukraine is the good place for R1a germanic - Scandianvian - origin

Nico
 
But see the message on the website genealogy from yesterday:
it seems that the haplogroup R1 a for the Scandinavians and British
originated in Balkan! I used to think: Ukraine.

Erik
 
Here is a guy who has balls ! too Manichean man and still observed in all human cultures
Indo European is a family of langages not a "cowboys Indians" game


Right I agree for some subclades with "emerged" not "arrived " you got it ? I have serious doubts about your sense of nuance .




"what great forgetting !!" Yeah a great bullshit hun ! you are too funny you should give lessons to Balaresque send her an email Patricia will appreciate your help
Once more, Willy, you have no argument...
 
I ) I would like to tell you that David Anthony (professor of anthropology) disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea long before the Kurgan.

2) Andrew Fleming, in "The Myth of the Mother Goddess" disagreed also with Gimbutas' s idea that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses .

3) Gimbutas theory involves a physical homogeneous steppe "kurgan" people dispersion at the same time (or during some different times) to Western or central Europe and also to Iran and North India so we should find the same markers and haplogroups on Western Europe and on North India so that's true about a very few Western Europeans who share a common genetic with some Indian of Hinduism upper castes as haplogroups R1a and J2 but this is not the case about the atlantic modal R1b1b2 ht15 .

4) Young subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 appear and not arrive in Europe during the diffusion of the bronze so their ancestors were neolithic farmers according Sir Colin Renfrew . Gimbutas explains that the Indo European elites has been formed to rule the conquered people (I do not share this point of view) but according her and by definition a elite concerns few people so this is not the case in Europe with the majority of this too common R1b1b2 ht15 haplogroup .

5) The origin of the Indo European languages is older than claims Gimbutas .

Open your eyes man ! You can not logically match R1b1b2 ht15 to the Indo European Gimbutas 's theory
 
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I ) I would like to tell you that David Anthony (professor of anthropology) disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea long before the Kurgan.

2) Andrew Fleming, in "The Myth of the Mother Goddess" disagreed also with Gimbutas' s idea that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses .

3) Gimbutas theory involves a physical homogeneous steppe "kurgan" people dispersion at the same time (or during some different times) to Western or central Europe and also to Iran and North India so we should find the same markers and haplogroups on Western Europe and on North India so that's true about a very few Western Europeans who share a common genetic with some Indian of Hinduism upper castes as haplogroups R1a and J2 but this is not the case about the atlantic modal R1b1b2 ht15 .

4) Young subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 appear and not arrive in Europe during the diffusion of the bronze so their ancestors were neolithic farmers . Gimbutas explains that the Indo European elites has been formed on the conquered people (I do not share this point of view) but according her and by definition a elite concerns few people so this is not the case in Europe with the majority of this too common R1b1b2 ht15 haplogroup .

5) The origin of the Indo European languages is older than claims Gimbutas .

Open your eyes man ! You can not logically match R1b1b2 ht15 to the Indo European Gimbutas 's theory
Once more Willy is the king of google and "drag and drop". The problem, Willy is that you don't understand what you "drag and drop".
In your quotes, there is no argument that IE is not from Pontic Steppes.
You quote David Anthony, but I am agree with Anthony. In his book "The horse, the wheel and the language", Anthony gives the proof that proto IE lived in Pontic Steppes.

I quote Anthony from his book page 458:
The Indo-European problem can be solved today because archaeological discoveries and advances in linguistics have eaten away at problems that remained insoluble as recently as fifteen years ago... Linguistic and archaeological discoveries now converge on the probability that Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the Pontic-Caspian steppes between 4500 and 2500 BCE, and alternative possibilities are increasingly difficult to square with new evidence.
Once more Willy, you have no argument...
 
Once more Willy is the king of google and "drag and drop". The problem, Willy is that you don't understand what you "drag and drop".
In your quotes, there is no argument that IE is not from Pontic Steppes.
You quote David Anthony, but I am agree with Anthony. In his book "The horse, the wheel and the language", Anthony gives the proove that proto IE lived in Pontic Steppes.

I quote Anthony from his book:


Once more Willy, you have no argument...

You are agree with David Anthony when he disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe ? So for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea on Europe long time before the Kurgan ! This is just your last argument man ! I doubt that you read correctly David Anthony .

Remember your last post : " .... It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others." You are in complete contradiction with yourself guy :sad-2:

" Linguistic and archaeological discoveries now converge on the probability that Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the Pontic-Caspian steppes between 4500 and 2500 BCE, and alternative possibilities are increasingly difficult to square with new evidence "

Amen

Your problem is that you have no other readings to exercise your critical thinking
 
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You are agree with David Anthony when he disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe ? So for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea on Europe long time before the Kurgan ! This is just your last argument man ! I doubt that you read correctly David Anthony .

So funny man : remember your last post : " .... It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others." You are in complete contradiction with yourself guy :sad-2:
I am agree with David Anthony because he tells also in his book that patriarcal society is born in herders society in the Pontic Steppes.

pages 328 and 364:
The speakers of late Proto-Indo-European expressed thanks for sons, fat cattle, and swift horses to Sky Father, *dyew pater, a male god whose prominence probably reflected the importance of fathers and brothers in the herding units that composed the core of earthly social organization...The institution of the Miinnerbiinde or Korios, the warrior brotherhood of young men bound by oath to one another and to their ancestors during a ritually mandated raid, has been reconstructed as a central part of ProtoIndo-European initiation rituals.
Read book Willy! Take your source from the author and not from google!
 
I am agree with David Anthony because he tells also in his book that patriarcal society is born in herders society in the Pontic Steppes.
Read book Willy! Take your source from the author and not from google!

Does Anthony talking about R1b1b2 ht15 in his books ?
 
:LOL: Once more Willy you have no argument!
Nobody said that Anthony talk about genetic in his book :LOL:



Ok I knew this reply so NO surprise now what scientific studies suggests R1b1b2 ht15 and the relationship to these Anthony 's Pontic steppe tribes ? I mean besides the crap you can read on Eupedia and what you bring everywhere .
 
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I am not sure that Maciamo will appreciate ... mostly when you tell that on Eupedia's forum...


Ok so what ? then I see ... you're not used to free expression :wary2: . Eupedia give some good infos and bad infos so we are not in a soviet power .
 
But did you read the Secher Bernard 's message from yesterday? See
the link with website "Genealogy". According to this message the
bearers of haplogroup R1a (Scandinavia and UK) originated from the
Balkan and not from the Ukraine.

Erik
 
Ok so what ? then I see ... you're not used to free expression :wary2: . Eupedia give some good infos and bad infos so we are not in a soviet power .
Insults are the speech of those who have no argument.
You can tell that Maciamo is wrong when he speak about R1b here : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origines_haplogroupes_europe.shtml#R1b but you must give arguments for that.
The fact that you choose insults rather than arguments is not a surprise for me. Freedom has nothing to do with this.
 
But please who can give me answer? I read testerday a website in which
it has been written that the Slavic R1a came from Russia and the R1a
(UK, Ireland and Scandinavia) originated in the Balkan. See the messages
of yesterday with website.
 
Insults are the speech of those who have no argument.
You can tell that Maciamo is wrong when he speak about R1b here : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origines_haplogroupes_europe.shtml#R1b but you must give arguments for that.
The fact that you choose insults rather than arguments is not a surprise for me. Freedom has nothing to do with this.

While R1b1b2 is most common in western Europe, some other lineages thought to have been brought into Europe by Neolithic farmers tend to be most frequent in the Near East, where the farmers started their journey. Their frequency in populations drops as one moves from the south-east to the north-west of the continent, the route taken by the agriculturalists.

http://www.sanger.ac.uk/about/press/2010/100126.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119133508.htm

http://www.physorg.com/news183129440.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8467623.stm
 
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