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Thread: L21 on the Iberian Peninsula

  1. #101
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    Good job Taranis, you single-handedly shut up the Iberian ministry of propaganda, lol. Their obvious agenda is gashing from every post, but they often end them with statement: "All we care is the truth".
    Because it's so obvious for all, even them, and they spend all day long posting here, all year round, and probably on ever site touching Iberian or "Celticity" issues, I always picture them sitting inside a historic building of Ministry of Propaganda typing hard to make their living, lol. Actually it's the same building that hosted the office of Spanish Inquisition some time ago, after all, all they wanted was the Truth too.
    I feel sorry for them now, because after this whooping they might get fired. And you know how hard is for a job in their corner of the world.

    PS. I'm afraid they don't have other option now, but to send for the Lynx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Good job Taranis, you single-handedly shut up the Iberian ministry of propaganda, lol. Their obvious agenda is gashing from every post, but they often end them with statement: "All we care is the truth".
    Because it's so obvious for all, even them, and they spend all day long posting here, all year round, and probably on ever site touching Iberian or "Celticity" issues, I always picture them sitting inside a historic building of Ministry of Propaganda typing hard to make their living, lol. Actually it's the same building that hosted the office of Spanish Inquisition some time ago, after all, all they wanted was the Truth too.
    I feel sorry for them now, because after this whooping they might get fired. And you know how hard is for a job in their corner of the world.
    PS. I'm afraid they don't have other option now, but to send for the Lynx.
    Who asked you for you two cents? You don't have to feel sorry for any of us, child. And, no one has shut anyone up, OK. As I have said repeatedly, the jury is still out and much more research needs to be done. Also, Tartessian being or not being a Celtic language does not change who Iberians are.

    All you ever contribute here is pure codswallop. You are out of your league and out of order. Get a life and grow the h**l up! One really has to wonder if you are not suffering from some serious mental disorder.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. You have one fixed view on the whole issue, which you are not going to change, anyways. I only hope that other people are more open to valid criticism than you are. I'm actually waiting now for a paper to be released which is going to tear apart Koch's 2009 paper for it's sloppy methodology (especially lack of sound correspondences)... (*hint* *hint*)
    I hardly have a fixed view. However, I find there are many gaps in the notion that Celtic culture / languages originated ONLY in Central Europe.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Who asked you for you two cents? You don't have to feel sorry for any of us, child. And, no one has shut anyone up, OK. As I have said repeatedly, the jury is still out and much more research needs to be done. Also, Tartessian being or not being a Celtic language does not change who Iberians are.

    All you ever contribute here is pure codswallop. You are out of your league and out of order. Get a life and grow the h**l up! One really has to wonder if you are not suffering from some serious mental disorder.
    I've never heard foul language like this from you Cambria! Lynx got fired? He was the one calling people names, sort of from good cop bad cop routine, you had going here. Did Ministry axe him? Man, your were the good cop, are you trying to confuse me?
    Am I the one to get a life, or a mental case? Dude, it was 4 am in Portugal when you wrote your message! Your first message was at 3pm, was this after work or ...breakfast?
    Just put me on ignore list before getting a heart attack at 4 am dude, at 4 am!

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've never heard foul language like this from you Cambria! Lynx got fired? He was the one calling people names, sort of from good cop bad cop routine, you had going here. Did Ministry axe him? Man, your were the good cop, are you trying to confuse me?
    Am I the one to get a life, or a mental case? Dude, it was 4 am in Portugal when you wrote your message! Your first message was at 3pm, was this after work or ...breakfast?
    Just put me on ignore list before getting a heart attack at 4 am dude, at 4 am!
    What foul language? Don't like hearing the TRUTH about yourself?

    I'm in Cambridge MA until the fall, for your information. Last I checked MA is five hours behind Portugal. You assume much too much. But, then again, you always do. Get yourself some help.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 11-08-10 at 15:52.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Good job Taranis, you single-handedly shut up the Iberian ministry of propaganda, lol. Their obvious agenda is gashing from every post, but they often end them with statement: "All we care is the truth".
    Because it's so obvious for all, even them, and they spend all day long posting here, all year round, and probably on ever site touching Iberian or "Celticity" issues, I always picture them sitting inside a historic building of Ministry of Propaganda typing hard to make their living, lol. Actually it's the same building that hosted the office of Spanish Inquisition some time ago, after all, all they wanted was the Truth too.
    I feel sorry for them now, because after this whooping they might get fired. And you know how hard is for a job in their corner of the world.

    PS. I'm afraid they don't have other option now, but to send for the Lynx.
    hmmm..Calm down please, actually I believe in the Central European theory for the Celtic origin. Don't worry, don't overreact like that. But we were discussing about the Kochs's theory which is only a hypothesis. Again, stick to the subject please. If there is something about spaniards that bugs you we can discuss it in another thread. Thanks

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    Well, I started this thread, which is really intended to be about L21 on the Iberian Peninsula. I'm not sure what I believe about Celtic origins, but what I think Koch's work does is show that Celtic was in Iberia very early indeed and was therefore not derived from either Hallstatt or La Tene. Celtic could have still come from Central Europe to Iberia by way of France, but it came earlier than some think.

    Personally, I think the earliest Celtic speakers may have been the Beaker Folk, and the current thinking is that they originated in Iberia. However, the thinking on the origin of the Beaker Folk shifts every decade or so, it seems, so Iberia may not be the last word on that subject.

    So, can we move on from second-hand amateur linguistics back to the actual topic of this thread?

    I hope so. Personally, I find Koch's work and reputation pretty compelling, but let's get back to the topic.

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    Thumbs up

    I'm not sure how well I have kept up with updating this thread, but, anyway, a day or so ago yet another Spaniard got an L21+ result: Mariño.

    He can't get his paper trail out of Colombia, but he is a 33/37 haplotype neighbor to an L21+ Portuguese Madeiran, Dos Reis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, I started this thread, which is really intended to be about L21 on the Iberian Peninsula. I'm not sure what I believe about Celtic origins, but what I think Koch's work does is show that Celtic was in Iberia very early indeed and was therefore not derived from either Hallstatt or La Tene. Celtic could have still come from Central Europe to Iberia by way of France, but it came earlier than some think.

    Personally, I think the earliest Celtic speakers may have been the Beaker Folk, and the current thinking is that they originated in Iberia. However, the thinking on the origin of the Beaker Folk shifts every decade or so, it seems, so Iberia may not be the last word on that subject.

    So, can we move on from second-hand amateur linguistics back to the actual topic of this thread?

    I hope so. Personally, I find Koch's work and reputation pretty compelling, but let's get back to the topic.
    Good post... Back to topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, I started this thread, which is really intended to be about L21 on the Iberian Peninsula. I'm not sure what I believe about Celtic origins, but what I think Koch's work does is show that Celtic was in Iberia very early indeed and was therefore not derived from either Hallstatt or La Tene. Celtic could have still come from Central Europe to Iberia by way of France, but it came earlier than some think.

    Personally, I think the earliest Celtic speakers may have been the Beaker Folk, and the current thinking is that they originated in Iberia. However, the thinking on the origin of the Beaker Folk shifts every decade or so, it seems, so Iberia may not be the last word on that subject.

    So, can we move on from second-hand amateur linguistics back to the actual topic of this thread?

    I hope so. Personally, I find Koch's work and reputation pretty compelling, but let's get back to the topic.
    No offense, but my mentor is not an amateur linguist, and that his criticism regarding the Koch paper stands valid, no matter what. I agree though that this went a bit heavily offtopic, and that it's currently impossible to reach consensus here, for now. I will take the liberty of posting links to future papers criticizing Koch's, however.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    No offense, but my mentor is not an amateur linguist, and that his criticism regarding the Koch paper stands valid, no matter what. I agree though that this went a bit heavily offtopic, and that it's currently impossible to reach consensus here, for now. I will take the liberty of posting links to future papers criticizing Koch's, however.
    Well, we don't know who your "mentor" is, but we do know who Koch is. I wouldn't say his criticism of Koch is "valid, no matter what". I think there are some holes in it, but, like you, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the arguments of your friend (if he is not an amateur) or Koch.

    So, please don't take this thread off topic to post such anonymous, second-hand stuff anymore.

    Save us the links, too, please. Start a new thread for that, if you feel you must.

    Regardless of your friend's criticism, it's pretty apparent Tartessian was an early Celtic language.

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    I'm quite interested to read the papers in "Celtic from the West", due out by the end of the month. It is not only that Tartessian appears to be Celtic, there is also a significant corpus of archaeological and genetic evidence in need of serious consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, we don't know who your "mentor" is, but we do know who Koch is. I wouldn't say his criticism of Koch is "valid, no matter what". I think there are some holes in it, but, like you, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the arguments of your friend (if he is not an amateur) or Koch.

    So, please don't take this thread off topic to post such anonymous, second-hand stuff anymore.

    Save us the links, too, please. Start a new thread for that, if you feel you must.
    There is no reason to be rude. But, I shall take your request to my heart, and I shall post future news on the issue in a different thread in the linguistics section, and leave this thread hence forth for genetics-only issues regarding R1b-L21, ok? Happy now?

    Regardless of your friend's criticism, it's pretty apparent Tartessian was an early Celtic language.
    Frankly, trust me on this one, if you see further future evidence, it will no longer be so "pretty apparent" anymore. But, more of this at a different time in a different thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There is no reason to be rude. But, I shall take your request to my heart, and I shall post future news on the issue in a different thread in the linguistics section, and leave this thread hence forth for genetics-only issues regarding R1b-L21, ok? Happy now?



    Frankly, trust me on this one, if you see further future evidence, it will no longer be so "pretty apparent" anymore. But, more of this at a different time in a different thread.
    Obviously, much more research has to be completed on Tartessian. However, even with the present gaps in the analytical process, enough evidence has been presented suggesting that Tartessian is perhaps the earliest Celtic language. One just needs to wait and see what proofs are produced in the coming years.

    Now, back to topic...
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 24-08-10 at 21:40.

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    Thumbs up

    A few days ago another Portuguese, Ventura, got his L21+ result. He hasn't told me yet where exactly in Portugal his y-dna ancestor came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Good job Taranis, you single-handedly shut up the Iberian ministry of propaganda, lol. Their obvious agenda is gashing from every post, but they often end them with statement: "All we care is the truth".
    Because it's so obvious for all, even them, and they spend all day long posting here, all year round, and probably on ever site touching Iberian or "Celticity" issues, I always picture them sitting inside a historic building of Ministry of Propaganda typing hard to make their living, lol. Actually it's the same building that hosted the office of Spanish Inquisition some time ago, after all, all they wanted was the Truth too.
    I feel sorry for them now, because after this whooping they might get fired. And you know how hard is for a job in their corner of the world.

    PS. I'm afraid they don't have other option now, but to send for the Lynx.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've never heard foul language like this from you Cambria! Lynx got fired? He was the one calling people names, sort of from good cop bad cop routine, you had going here. Did Ministry axe him? Man, your were the good cop, are you trying to confuse me?
    Am I the one to get a life, or a mental case? Dude, it was 4 am in Portugal when you wrote your message! Your first message was at 3pm, was this after work or ...breakfast?
    Just put me on ignore list before getting a heart attack at 4 am dude, at 4 am!

    Wow, you're surely a douchebag.

    I've been on vacation but it's not your business anyways.

    Why are you so obsessed with me again?? I've returned from my vacations and i find the forum full of garbage about me posted by you.

    Darling what's your problem?? Do you have any mental illness???

    I haven't said a single word in this thread until you came here and wrote my nick (twice), btw. And this is not the first time that it happens. I don't understand why you had to bring me into this discussion. What's wrong with you??

    PS: Your obsession towards everything related with Spain showed in this forum is suspiciously remembering me to those of the resentful third-worlders from Latin America. And we know how used are in that corner of the world to migrate to Northern America and to hide their true identity in Internet.

    Greetings.
    Last edited by ^ lynx ^; 04-09-10 at 02:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Good job Taranis, you single-handedly shut up the Iberian ministry of propaganda, lol. Their obvious agenda is gashing from every post, but they often end them with statement: "All we care is the truth".
    Because it's so obvious for all, even them, and they spend all day long posting here, all year round, and probably on ever site touching Iberian or "Celticity" issues, I always picture them sitting inside a historic building of Ministry of Propaganda typing hard to make their living, lol. Actually it's the same building that hosted the office of Spanish Inquisition some time ago, after all, all they wanted was the Truth too.
    I feel sorry for them now, because after this whooping they might get fired. And you know how hard is for a job in their corner of the world.

    PS. I'm afraid they don't have other option now, but to send for the Lynx.
    Stop with your racism against spaniards, if you can't accept the Celtic roots of Iberia that's your own problem seek for professional help

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Stop with your racism against spaniards, if you can't accept the Celtic roots of Iberia that's your own problem seek for professional help
    Frankly, the problem isn't with the Celtic roots of modern Iberians, it's with the Iberian roots of the Celts...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R-L21 reaches 20% in parts of northern Spain, as seen in the recent study of Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012, you have here the regions pertaining to Spain, and the percentage of R-L21 :

    Southwestern Gipuzkoa, n = 13/57 = 22.81%
    Roncal Valley, Navarra: n = 11/53 = 20.8 %
    Alaba, n = 11/51 = 21.57%
    Guipuzkoa, n = 9/47 = 19.15%
    Central/Western Navarra, n = 9/60 = 15.0%
    Bizkaia, Basque Country, n = 7/57 = 12.28%
    La Rioja, n = 6/54 = 11.11 %
    Western Bizkaia , n = 3/19 = 10.53%
    Northwestern Navarra, n = 5/51 = 9.80%
    Northern Aragón : n = 1/27 = 3.7%

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NxERymyEwD...oup_basque.jpg

    Total : n = 75/476 = 15.76%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    R-L21 reaches 20% in parts of northern Spain, as seen in the recent study of Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012, which focuses on Basques and surrounding regions, you have here the regions pertaining to Spain :

    Southwestern Gipuzkoa, n = 13/57 = 22.81%
    Roncal Valley, Navarra: n = 11/53 = 20.8 %
    Alaba, n = 11/51 = 21.57%
    Guipuzkoa, n = 9/47 = 19.15%
    Central/Western Navarra, n = 9/60 = 15.0%
    Bizkaia, Basque Country, n = 7/57 = 12.28%
    La Rioja, n = 6/54 = 11.11 %
    Western Bizkaia , n = 3/19 = 10.53%Northwestern Navarra, n = 5/51 = 9.80%
    Northern Aragón : n = 1/27 = 3.7%


    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NxERymyEwD...oup_basque.jpg
    This is truly a great find, Wilhelm, but I'd be somewhat cautious with the representativity in terms of percentages. If you take a look at the individual sample sizes per specific region, some are as low as 18, which is not exactly representative. On the flip side, those with the greater sample size (50-60) show the same general trend everywhere (ie, 15-20%), so I suggest that this data is more representative (at least in most regions) than the sample size initially suggests.

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    Dienekes' blogged about this too, but not focussing in R-L21: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03...cture-has.html

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: Ireland



    it will be interesting to see what "sub-clades" of L21 show up in Spain. I know for example that Z253 was found in two Latin American samples from 1000genome project (1 from Colombia, other Mexican-American). Given that Z253 has been found over a very widespread (it's above L226, "Irish Type IV" carry it etc) with results from from Ireland, Britain and France.

    The original finding of it in the 1k samples led to people thinking it might have been a specific Iberian L21 "clade", of course when it was found to be upstream of L226 (Irish Type III) this blew that out of the water.

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