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Thread: The Normans

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    The Normans



    Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?

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    From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

    But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

    Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.
    Thanks again, Maciamo. Would I be taking it a step too far to extrapolate U106 to include L48+ amongst the Normans?

    Cheers, Chris

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    Here is the Normandy Y-DNA Project:

    http://tinyurl.com/26ahmsl

    It's a relatively small project, in part because one must be able to reasonably demonstrate actual Norman ancestry and not simply have a claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). . .
    By the way, there is as much or more P312 (as a whole) in Scandinavia as there is U106 (as a whole).

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    A bit off Y DNA script, but for those in reach of UK TV, there is a three-part programme The Normans, BBC 2/HD; Wed 4 Aug at 9:00.

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    Anybody know a way to spoof a UK IP address? I get the message, "Not available in your area."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

    But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

    Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.

    I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.

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    Are you S29+?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.
    I believe that is based on Oppenheimer's 6-marker "Frisian Modal Haplotype", which is too short to be worth much of anything. I match it, too.

    There are many men of different subclades who match that "bikini haplotype", so it isn't much good for classifying them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.
    Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.

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    Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elly View Post
    Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?
    R1b-L2 (branch of U152) ? In Britain this could either be La Tène Celtic (perhaps of the Belgic branch, as some of them settled around York) or Roman. It's definitely not Germanic.

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    I was thinking Belgae, as, my closest, continental match is a Van Bunschoten from Utrecht, Netherlands, at a 66/15 match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.
    Coutts is L21+, Maciamo. There is plenty of L21 in Scandinavia, but this "R1b-8 Frisian Modal" thing isn't much good. It casts too broad a net and catches men of different R1b1b2 subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.
    I wouldn't say that it is entirely useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples in relation to I1 at least. Arguably, it is more likely that an I1 signal with 22 at 390 and 12 at 462 represents the default, most common type of I1, found in greatest numbers in the Germanic lowland countries and Britain [Nordtvedt; Barac; Tambets]. Conversely, the more Scandinavian-leaning I1 signatures are usually 23 at 390 and 13 at 462. This is not a universal rule but again, the most likely scenario.

    Regarding attempts to distinguish 'Germanic' from 'Celtic' R1b, as far as I am concerned, the most likely candidates for the Germanic label are S21 [U106], the rarer S29 [U198] and the 'Norse' cluster of R1b recently marketed by Ethnoancestry [discovered by Ken Nordtvedt] for testing via SNP S182. Frankly, in my view, all other strains of R1b I see as more likely to be Celtic. For example, I regard S28 as La Tene Celtic, given its age and distribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.
    David,
    As I once said before [on another forum], this 'Frisian' R1b of Oppenheimer's is meant to be ancient and not related to any Frisian component of the Anglo-Saxon invasions. It is meant to represent a much earlier intrusion.

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    Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?

    Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?

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    Next year is the 1100th anniversary of Rollo's conquest of what would become Normandy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?

    G2a3b1 but was before a Turkish guest workers in Germany more a kind of Roman recruitment who is the same idea the descendants of these soldiers where assimilated to the Germans and were specialized in the warrior class because the Roman recruitment was not a bad recruitment to survey and control the Empire border on Europe you need valuable men cavalry archery etc ... now you have some English men G2a2b2 named for instance Montjoi who is typically Normand how a "Germanic" G2a3b1 came to England ? the Saxons who adopted a Normand last name ? no a Normand who came to England with William this "Norman" was a descendant of one of these a "turkish guest workers in Germany " but after few generations Germans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hus View Post
    Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?

    Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?
    Whether or not Baldwin of Flanders was 'neutral', there was certainly [as is relatively well-known] a Flemish contingent in 'the Great Bastard's' army. Why refer to it as Breton-Norman? There was certainly a large Breton contingent, but equally given the size of the Frankish contribution, one could refer to a Frankish-Norman army. Gascony, Picardy too were represented.

    That the mainstay of Rollo's original band was Danish, including Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw is well documented by several historians such as Gwyn Jones, Michael Wood, and Johannes Brondstedt. However, there was a smaller, Norwegian contingent which apparently settled the Cotentin peninsular quite heavily. Lastly, Rollo's band also included a Norse-Gael element; Norwegians who had been in Ireland for some time.

    By the time of the 1066 conquest, the 'Normans' were surely not Scandinavian on every line, as intermarriage with Frankish women etc was the norm. Many so-called 'Norman' surnames which allegedly 'came over with the Conqueror' have non-Scandinavian origins. For example...

    Bellamy is Frankish
    Joyce, Harvey are Breton
    Roche is Flemish
    Gascoigne is obviously from Gascony

    The predominant element in the 'mixed bag' that was the Normans is probably Germanic. However, we should not underestimate the Celtic Breton element. I personally think that Breton settlement, particularly in north Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and East Anglia [Suffolk was at one time a 'Breton soke'] has been underestimated.

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    Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.
    'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.

    Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.

    Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans.
    Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign.

    The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign.

    The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.
    Yes, the so-called 'Dark Ages' are dark indeed when it comes to tribal ultra-violence. The 'Harrying of the North' seems to have been on a bigger scale than anything attributable to earlier Norwegian and Danish Viking incursions or anything the Anglo-Saxons did against the Brythons, or indeed anything the Brythons did against the pre-Celtic populations. As far as we know..

    You are quite right to be cynical. Judging any of these earlier peoples/cultures through the left/liberal lens of 21st century social science/historical study clearly shows that none of them were remotely 'cuddly'. You are correct regarding the battles between the various Anglo-Saxon divisions of Mercia, Wessex etc. Ultra-violence was a way of life.

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