The Normans

Chris

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England
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English
Y-DNA haplogroup
R-L48+
mtDNA haplogroup
H
Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?
 
From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.
 
From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

Thanks again, Maciamo. Would I be taking it a step too far to extrapolate U106 to include L48+ amongst the Normans?

Cheers, Chris
 
Here is the Normandy Y-DNA Project:

http://tinyurl.com/26ahmsl

It's a relatively small project, in part because one must be able to reasonably demonstrate actual Norman ancestry and not simply have a claim.
 
From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). . .

By the way, there is as much or more P312 (as a whole) in Scandinavia as there is U106 (as a whole).
 
A bit off Y DNA script, but for those in reach of UK TV, there is a three-part programme The Normans, BBC 2/HD; Wed 4 Aug at 9:00.
 
Anybody know a way to spoof a UK IP address? I get the message, "Not available in your area." :mad:
 
From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.


I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.
 
I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.

I believe that is based on Oppenheimer's 6-marker "Frisian Modal Haplotype", which is too short to be worth much of anything. I match it, too.

There are many men of different subclades who match that "bikini haplotype", so it isn't much good for classifying them.
 
I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.

Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.
 
Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?
 
Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?

R1b-L2 (branch of U152) ? In Britain this could either be La Tène Celtic (perhaps of the Belgic branch, as some of them settled around York) or Roman. It's definitely not Germanic.
 
I was thinking Belgae, as, my closest, continental match is a Van Bunschoten from Utrecht, Netherlands, at a 66/15 match.
 
Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.

Coutts is L21+, Maciamo. There is plenty of L21 in Scandinavia, but this "R1b-8 Frisian Modal" thing isn't much good. It casts too broad a net and catches men of different R1b1b2 subclades.
 
Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.

I wouldn't say that it is entirely useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples in relation to I1 at least. Arguably, it is more likely that an I1 signal with 22 at 390 and 12 at 462 represents the default, most common type of I1, found in greatest numbers in the Germanic lowland countries and Britain [Nordtvedt; Barac; Tambets]. Conversely, the more Scandinavian-leaning I1 signatures are usually 23 at 390 and 13 at 462. This is not a universal rule but again, the most likely scenario.

Regarding attempts to distinguish 'Germanic' from 'Celtic' R1b, as far as I am concerned, the most likely candidates for the Germanic label are S21 [U106], the rarer S29 [U198] and the 'Norse' cluster of R1b recently marketed by Ethnoancestry [discovered by Ken Nordtvedt] for testing via SNP S182. Frankly, in my view, all other strains of R1b I see as more likely to be Celtic. For example, I regard S28 as La Tene Celtic, given its age and distribution.
 
I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.

David,
As I once said before [on another forum], this 'Frisian' R1b of Oppenheimer's is meant to be ancient and not related to any Frisian component of the Anglo-Saxon invasions. It is meant to represent a much earlier intrusion.
 
Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?

Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?
 
Next year is the 1100th anniversary of Rollo's conquest of what would become Normandy...
 
Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?


G2a3b1 but was before a Turkish guest workers in Germany more a kind of Roman recruitment who is the same idea the descendants of these soldiers where assimilated to the Germans and were specialized in the warrior class because the Roman recruitment was not a bad recruitment to survey and control the Empire border on Europe you need valuable men cavalry archery etc ... now you have some English men G2a2b2 named for instance Montjoi who is typically Normand how a "Germanic" G2a3b1 came to England ? the Saxons who adopted a Normand last name ? no a Normand who came to England with William this "Norman" was a descendant of one of these a "turkish guest workers in Germany " but after few generations Germans
 

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