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Thread: How did Y-DNA haplogroup Q enter Scandinavia?

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    How did Y-DNA haplogroup Q enter Scandinavia?



    From wikipedia:
    The frequency of haplogroup Q in Norway is about 4%
    It's absent in the Finnish and Sámi populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    From wikipedia:
    It's absent in the Finnish and Sámi populations.
    Is it? According to Eupedia's table on Y-Haplogroup frequencies, it is pesent in Finland st 0.5%.

    Either way, it's hard to say. The Huns and the Mongols obviously never were in Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Is it? According to Eupedia's table on Y-Haplogroup frequencies, it is pesent in Finland st 0.5%.
    Either way, it's hard to say. The Huns and the Mongols obviously never were in Scandinavia.
    In Eupedia's table Norway is also 0.5%, but other sources say it's 4-5% ?

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    But I do not believe that the haplogroup Q is present in Denmark, Germany
    or the Netherlands. How does haplogroup Q arrive in Norway?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Interesting I never realized that Native American Y DNA was so deeply infused with a single Y DNA Haplogroup. Honestly I had never looked at it in any detail. However it is pretty interesting to see how the two daughter (or should I say son groups) of P, R and Q spread out to cover a fairly large portion of the world.
    I guess I need to spend more time looking a Maciamo's graphics and write ups on the different Y DNA groups.

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    I should like know more why the haplogroup Q entered Norway.
    And when. But is the haplogroup Q presented in Russia?
    Russia, Finnland and Hungary are remarkable countries in which
    there is a lot mongolish mixture.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    The question is, what subclade of Haplogroup Q is prevalent in Norway? What I mean is, that might help narrow it down where Norwegian Q came from.

    For example, it's doubtful that it would be Q1a3a, because that's the subclade of Q which is associated with the Native Americans.

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    The question is: are Q haplogroup in Norway is from indigenious siberian populations or from some middle Asia horde like Magyars or similar. As far I know there is also some percent of Q in Hungary and it is usually cited to show original Magyar component in modern Hungarians. I doubt that Norwegian Q has anything in common with european continental Q. So I believe that it could be explained with some Siberion northern migration, maybe together with N people.

    Anyway, if Q subclade shows american variant, then it is possible western migration from America. If Vikings could reach America, why shouldn´t some Indian wasn´t able to reach Europe. Maybe together with Vikings on their way home.

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    This site have some theories:
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_q.htm
    Haplogroup Q may have entered Scandinavian populations through prehistoric mixing. Or it may have entered in historic

    times during the centuries that the Vikings explored the White Sea area north of Finnmark. Viking adventures in Bjarmaland

    - modern day Permia, which is adjacent to Western Siberia - have been recorded not only in the Icelandic sagas, but also in

    factual accounts. King Ottar, a Norwegian who visited King Alfred's court, regaled the Anglo-Saxon monarch with his tales

    of whale-hunting and exploration in the far north.
    I think he means north-east of Finnmark.


    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    So I believe that it could be explained with some Siberion northern migration, maybe together with N people..
    Q is absent in Sami who have the highest frequency of N in Norway.

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    Hell, that's an interesting map! I don't think the Eskimos from Greenland could cross the rough Atlantic north in their kayaks. It's easier to come to Norway from Russian Tundra, but there is a huge gap, that would mean that Sami killed all of them. That's pretty much unlikely, though an option.
    What does it leave us with? An east migration with Viking? I don't know, Q is so wide spread in Norway. And it would mean that Vikings mingled with Eskimos a big time, but if they did they most likely would have survived the little ice age in Greenland. But they didn't.

    Did Native Americans discovered Europe millenias before Europe discovered America?
    Were Sami a vicious warriors that killed Q and made a huge gap in Q in Finland and Russia?

    One is sure, the dot of Q in Hungary, are the Huns signature.
    Were Magyars a Q tribe scared from North by invading Sami?

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    davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

    The present study emerged out of a single observation. Genetic Y chromosome DNA
    testing revealed that the author’s uncleWilliamson (and thus his maternal grandfather),
    whose roots in themale line lie in the Shetland Islands, had an unusual pattern of matches
    to the 12 “scores” (markers). The largest number of close matches to this rare
    haplogroup R1a1 (more on this genetic grouping later) Norse signature from Shetland
    were not seen in large and diverse European samples in which R1a1 predominates (e.g.,
    Poland), but among the tribal SiberianAltai of Central Asia (33 closematches out of the
    sample of 46 who had a Haplogroup R1a1 DNA signature). While this could simply be
    an anomaly, the data emerging out of the Shetland Islands Y-DNA Surname Project
    began to paint a picture of an Asian
    presence within the Norse population. All other R1a1 participants with aboriginal
    surnames (e.g., Robertson, Mathewson) also had the same match profile as the above
    Williamson. Over time, and as the sample size increased, other rare haplogroups, seen
    but rarely anywhere in Europe emerged. These included Q (seen almost exclusively in
    Asia and North America), and K (found in Asia and the Middle East) came to light.
    These three particular DNA signature patterns were also seen in recently published
    samples of Norway, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands (the latter two being founded, as was
    Shetland, as Norse colonies).

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    Apart of Norway and Hungary where in Europe can you find the haplo-
    group Q? I suppose there exist a lot of Q in Russia, Poland and in Finnland.

    I also read that in Germany there exist a very little of haplogroup Q.
    But who know where in Germany and how did it arrive there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Apart of Norway and Hungary where in Europe can you find the haplo-
    group Q? I suppose there exist a lot of Q in Russia, Poland and in Finnland.

    I also read that in Germany there exist a very little of haplogroup Q.
    But who know where in Germany and how did it arrive there?
    German Haplogroup Q has most likely Hunnic origin. After all, the Huns were in Germany, and one Germanic tribe, the Thuringii, are credited with enslaving remnants of the Hunnic empire. I do not know how serious that one is, how much evidence there is for that, or if there's any variability in the distribution of Haplogroup Q in Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Apart of Norway and Hungary where in Europe can you find the haplo-
    group Q? I suppose there exist a lot of Q in Russia, Poland and in Finnland.

    I also read that in Germany there exist a very little of haplogroup Q.
    But who know where in Germany and how did it arrive there?

    Y-DNA haplogroup Q is almost non existend in Finland, it has not been detected among the Sámi people either.

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    Q in England

    I am hap Q1a3*, which is not American Indian. Me and lots of my American Vick cousins are descended from a 1670s immigrant to Virginia. We strongly suspect he was from southwest England because almost all immigrants to Virginia at that time were from England and because the name Vick is most common in Great Britain in the southwest. The closest European relative we have found is Norwegian. We have found no British hap Q relatives.

    We have speculated that we had a Viking ancestor hence our surname Vick.

    Familytreedna dot com has a YDNA Q project some of you might find interesting. Our Vick results are under Q-M346 Group 2.

    I understant that Faux and others have reseached European Q but these results are not in the public domain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lrayvick View Post
    I am hap Q1a3*, which is not American Indian. Me and lots of my American Vick cousins are descended from a 1670s immigrant to Virginia. We strongly suspect he was from southwest England because almost all immigrants to Virginia at that time were from England and because the name Vick is most common in Great Britain in the southwest. The closest European relative we have found is Norwegian. We have found no British hap Q relatives.

    We have speculated that we had a Viking ancestor hence our surname Vick.

    Familytreedna dot com has a YDNA Q project some of you might find interesting. Our Vick results are under Q-M346 Group 2.

    I understant that Faux and others have reseached European Q but these results are not in the public domain.
    I saw that project on FTDNA. It is actually Jewish Q Project, but they welcome everybody with Q haplogroup and European ancestry.
    They offer an explanation for quite high (5%) presence of Q among Askhenasic Jews: Khazars, turkish tribe which adopted Judaism, and later enter in Europe and brought haplogroup Q not only to Jews but to other European nations, Hungarians for example . One of Hunagarian tribes Kabars were of Khazaric origin. It could explain high percent (for Europe statistics) of Q among Hungarians. And there is also today tribe in Afghanistan with the name Hazara where Q haplogroup is also found.

    This could explain presence of Q among many European nationalities and solve dilemma we had about Norway Q. So Q could enter Norway from the south, maybe with group of Jewish mercants, and maybe with slaves from Khazaric Empire in south Russia where Vikings(Varjags) operated for a very long period.

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    I would say this further supports Eskimo theory - DNA analysis of a man who lived on Greenland 4000 years ago:

    In addition, our analysis of more than two hundred Y chromosome SNPs allowed us to assign the Saqqaq individual to Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture08835.html

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    The mystery is how the Eskimos crossed the rough Atlantic? They had only kayaks.
    Physically you can cross it on kayak if lucky, but there is not much room to bring food on little kayak, and they would need to do it in a group, at least male and female.
    Most likely scenario would be: one Eskimo gets lost on kayak and survives a week or two (guessing) trip to Scandinavia. Survives there for a month to recuperate. Then goes back to his village (try doing it without navigation tools) inform others of land of plenty (whatever exited him in there) and all group gets so excited that they risk their lives to kayak a week ocean trip to Scandinavia.
    Scenario two: In global warming time 5 thousands years ago, Greenland gets overpopulated, and some village lost the ground, and is forced to kayak away from bad guys. They survived two week kayaking to Scandinavia. Scandinavia is empty land, or friendly people occupy it, so they multiplied.
    On bright site the Gulfstream helps the trip from Greenland to Scandinavia.

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    I really don't think it's the Eskimos. It's far easier to come from Siberia to Scandinavia than from Greenland. Then even if a few Eskimos had managed the improbable feat of crossing a glacial sea in kayak, they wouldn't have been enough to procreate in large numbers enough to influence Y-DNA statistics.

    The Vikings did reach Greenland and Canada with much more advanced ships (the Drakars) in the Middle Ages, but their settlements there were quickly abandoned and they didn't leave any descendants behind (Greenland was re-colonised by the Danes in the 18th century, which is why there are now people of Scandinavian descent there).

    The two most liekely possibilities in my view are :

    1) Q came to Scandinavia from Siberia during the late Paleolithic, towards the end of the Ice Age.

    2) Q came from Siberia/Central Asia as part of the Hunnic confederation around the 4th-5th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The mystery is how the Eskimos crossed the rough Atlantic? They had only kayaks.
    Physically you can cross it on kayak if lucky, but there is not much room to bring food on little kayak, and they would need to do it in a group, at least male and female.
    They had umiaks also:

    A large umiak can hold more than 20 people in its 6 metres (20 ft) to 10 m (33 ft) frame; and about seven skins are needed for the cover on a boat of 30 ft (9.1 m). It has traditionally been used in summer to move people and possessions to seasonal hunting grounds and for hunting whales and walrus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umiak

    I'm not a sailor but reaching Norway from Greenland looks easier then reaching Hawaii from Polynesia:

    The early settlement history of Hawaiʻi is still not completely resolved. Some believe that the first Polynesians arrived in Hawaiʻi in the 3rd century from the Marquesas and were followed by Tahitian settlers in AD 1300 who conquered the original inhabitants. Others believe that there was only a single, extended period of settlement.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...waiian_islands

    Then we should not forget that Gulf Stream makes climate on the route from Greenland to Scandinavia much milder then in North Canada for example.

    There is also a study from Helgason in 2000 which finds 7% of Q haplogroup in Iceland which could mean that Iceland was used as a temporary settlement for this people, but direct arrival to Scandinavia is also possible.

    When discussing possibility of their arrival from opposite direction during migration period, as much as I know predominate Q1 subclade in Hungary (territory where Huns and Avars established their rule) is Q1a2, and in Scandinavia it is Q1a3. Also history did not record any such movement.

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    It's news to me. I didn't know they had big boats like umiak. It makes it more realistic now that they could have swam to Scandinavia, island jumping in the process.
    Thanks

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    Umiaks are just big kayaks. They are not designed to cross oceans. Even if Polynesians could hop from island to island with such boats, it is far more perilous to cross the cold and windy Norwegian Sea. What's more, if they had travelled from Greenland to Norway in large numbers, why wouldn't they have settled in Iceland, the Faroes or the Shetlands in between, as the Vikings did ? These islands were all uninhabited when the Vikings discovered them. If Eskimos were equipped to survive in Greenland there is no way these islands were too inhospitable for them.

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    I agree with you; it is million times easier and logical that Q had came from Central Asia. It is almost absurd to think eskimos settled in Norway coming by boat from Greenland. Moreover, lets note that their boats never would support this kind of travel by the North Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I really don't think it's the Eskimos. It's far easier to come from Siberia to Scandinavia than from Greenland. Then even if a few Eskimos had managed the improbable feat of crossing a glacial sea in kayak, they wouldn't have been enough to procreate in large numbers enough to influence Y-DNA statistics.

    The Vikings did reach Greenland and Canada with much more advanced ships (the Drakars) in the Middle Ages, but their settlements there were quickly abandoned and they didn't leave any descendants behind (Greenland was re-colonised by the Danes in the 18th century, which is why there are now people of Scandinavian descent there).

    The two most liekely possibilities in my view are :

    1) Q came to Scandinavia from Siberia during the late Paleolithic, towards the end of the Ice Age.

    2) Q came from Siberia/Central Asia as part of the Hunnic confederation around the 4th-5th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Umiaks are just big kayaks. They are not designed to cross oceans. Even if Polynesians could hop from island to island with such boats, it is far more perilous to cross the cold and windy Norwegian Sea. What's more, if they had travelled from Greenland to Norway in large numbers, why wouldn't they have settled in Iceland, the Faroes or the Shetlands in between, as the Vikings did ? These islands were all uninhabited when the Vikings discovered them. If Eskimos were equipped to survive in Greenland there is no way these islands were too inhospitable for them.
    I have two questions:

    - How do we know Iceland or Shetlands were uninhabited?

    - How did Inuit people get to Greenland 4500 years ago?

    My answer for this second question is - they most likely crossed 500 kilometers from Canada with their umiaks. And distance from Greenland to Iceland is very similar. If we analyse their way of life which obviously included a lot of fishing and spending a lot of time on the open sea, it would be very strange if since 2500 BC they never got to Iceland at least. The picture bellow can give us some ideas what could've been going on with Inuit people:


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