In Italy, north–south differences in IQ predict differences in income,

We learned from the Ancient Egypt paper that the closest population to Ancient Egyptians are Bedouins

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Bedouins had since ancient times, a tradition to oppose any form of craft or skill other than pastoralism and plunder, they don't marry from any "artisan" families http://www.alsharq.net.sa/2013/02/07/710570

They are the antithesis of whatever constitutes civilization, and yet from the same racial stock were the Ancient Egyptians, I'm sure there was a difference in Intelligence.

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Bedouins had since ancient times, a tradition to oppose any form of craft or skill other than pastoralism and plunder, they don't marry from any "artisan" families http://www.alsharq.net.sa/2013/02/07/710570

They are the antithesis of whatever constitutes civilization, and yet from the same racial stock were the Ancient Egyptians, I'm sure there was a difference in Intelligence.

We also learned Sicilians are similar to the Ancient Greeks. On the first page of this thread Maciamo said genetics is only a part of IQ, and nutrition plays a role.

EDIT:

I wonder if there is some correlation with smoking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7548002/Smokers-have-lower-IQs.html
Smokers have lower IQs than those who abstain, with intelligence decreasing the more one smokes, researchers have found.

A study of 18 to 21-year-old men revealed that the IQs of smokers averaged 94 – seven points lower than non-smokers on 101.

IQ scores in a healthy population of young men fall between 84 and 116, but those who smoked more than a pack of cigarettes a day averaged just 90 between them.

Researchers in Israel took data from more than 20,000 healthy men before, during and after they spent time in the Israeli military.

About 28 per cent of their sample smoked one or more cigarettes a day, three per cent considered themselves ex-smokers, and 68 per cent said they never smoked.

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Source

I wonder if the Japanese IQ would be even higher, if they didn't smoke so much.

IQ is not purely genetic. It depends on many other things such as :

- the mother's health and diet during pregnancy (obviously a mother who abuse of alcohol or do drugs or eat food with a high level of toxicity like tuna will damage the foetus' brain and lead to lower IQ)

- nutrition at least until reaching physical and mental maturity (the brain consumes a lot of energy and a good nutrition rich in omega-3, vitamins, minerals, etc. will improve neural development)

- the quality of education t least until 5 years old (intellectual stimulation from an early age is vital to the proper development of brain functions)


Statistically, poorer and less educated people have worse nutrition, are more prone to unhealthy habits and live in a less intellectually stimulating environment, which may be why IQ tends to correlate with the parents' social class and revenues, which in turn is reflected on the education, job opportunities, wealth and social class of their children.

Also, I think the clannish attitude of Southern Italians is a positive attribute when they are in places like the USA. It fits in much better with the mentality.
 
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I believe that the communication through the translator of google is producing certain interpretations not correct that also do not correspond with what I mean, until I do not perfect my English I think I will not participate more in these forums.

Not need for that. It can happen to anybody been misinterpreted by a Translator. :)
 
http://www.epicentro.iss.it/passi/rapporto2012/FumoPassivo.asp

The above link is in italian, so it will require translation. But it talks about regional differences with smoking, and smoking ban policies.

Veneto has the best enforcement of the smoking ban. No surprise they have a very high IQ.

I don't think smoking is the only issue. For other populations in Europe, it could also be linked to the rate of alcohol consumption, and other substance abuse issues. As well as pollution, and illegal waste dumping, contaminating food.
 
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http://www.epicentro.iss.it/passi/rapporto2012/FumoPassivo.asp

The above link is in italian, so it will require translation. But it talks about regional differences with smoking, and smoking ban policies.

Veneto has the best enforcement of the smoking ban. No surprise they have a very high IQ.

I don't think smoking is the only issue. For other populations in Europe, it could also be linked to the rate alcohol consumption, and other substance abuse issues. As well as pollution, and illegal waste dumping, contaminating food.

Einstein smoked the pipe.
Exception to the Rules.
 
What do you think is?

Edit:

A) Do you disagree with Richard Lynn's assessment of Albanian IQ being 90 on average?

B) Do you disagree with my posts about the non-genetic factors for lower IQs in Europe (i.e. smoking, pollution, alcohol, nutrition, etc.)?

*FYI I agree that there are difference in IQ. But like Maciamo stated, there are other reasons besides genetic.
 
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to North and South IQ differences being genetic etc. I think it is mostly environmental.
 
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to North and South IQ differences being genetic etc. I think it is mostly environmental.

I agree with you. I believe it would most likely be attributed to environmental factors. As well as the other problems I noted. I believe if these issues were corrected, overtime, it would increase the IQ of the regions affected by these plights.
 
I think the issue is multifactorial as well the human inteligence is multidimensional,- in many ways and in wide perspective-, which subject -subdue-, with all the additional deformations as any natural phaenomena "humanly" percieved.


In short terms, but in wide and general meanings I would said that is that the issue is about
i) Good genes
ii) Good place
iii) Good time
iv) Good luck !!!
Well the discussion about what is "luck", is far an other issue pretty complexed as well with many variations and levels from human perceptive ignorance as simple and natural conjuctural coincidences...


I consider also that a good economy gives that "free time" to train and educate ourselves, but in a second realise that some of our greatest challenges in human history as many cultures as well are "childrens" of a certain crisis issue which urgently needs to solve. For example what intrigued the Hunters to became cultivators? or what kind of pressures motivate a "sheppard" to became a seafarer of prehistory?
Yes, maybe it is about economy and high -measurable- inteligence, but at the end of the day winner is the man that survives at any cost for some and at best price offers for others, The "story" of our timeline usually make its own decissisions -at the end-, to who not only is the smartest but also who is the happiest.
 
I think the issue is multifactorial as well the human inteligence is multidimensional,- in many ways and in wide perspective-, which subject -subdue-, with all the additional deformations as any natural phaenomena "humanly" percieved.


In short terms, but in wide and general meanings I would said that is that the issue is about
i) Good genes
ii) Good place
iii) Good time
iv) Good luck !!!
Well the discussion about what is "luck", is far an other issue pretty complexed as well with many variations and levels from human perceptive ignorance as simple and natural conjuctural coincidences...


I consider also that a good economy gives that "free time" to train and educate ourselves, but in a second realise that some of our greatest challenges in human history as many cultures as well are "childrens" of a certain crisis issue which urgently needs to solve. For example what intrigued the Hunters to became cultivators? or what kind of pressures motivate a "sheppard" to became a seafarer of prehistory?
Yes, maybe it is about economy and high -measurable- inteligence, but at the end of the day winner is the man that survives at any cost for some and at best price offers for others, The "story" of our timeline usually make its own decissisions -at the end-, to who not only is the smartest but also who is the happiest.

Eloquently put!
 
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IQ is not purely genetic. It depends on many other things such as :

- the mother's health and diet during pregnancy (obviously a mother who abuse of alcohol or do drugs or eat food with a high level of toxicity like tuna will damage the foetus' brain and lead to lower IQ)

- nutrition at least until reaching physical and mental maturity (the brain consumes a lot of energy and a good nutrition rich in omega-3, vitamins, minerals, etc. will improve neural development)

- the quality of education t least until 5 years old (intellectual stimulation from an early age is vital to the proper development of brain functions)


Statistically, poorer and less educated people have worse nutrition, are more prone to unhealthy habits and live in a less intellectually stimulating environment, which may be why IQ tends to correlate with the parents' social class and revenues, which in turn is reflected on the education, job opportunities, wealth and social class of their children.

Seems like a Vicious cycle....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_United_States_government_and_Italian_Mafia

The Mafia’s influence in Sicily grew until the 1920s, when Prime Minister Benito Mussolini came to power and launched a brutal crackdown on mobsters, who he viewed as a threat to his Fascist regime. However, in the 1950s, the Mafia rose again when mob-backed construction companies dominated the post-World War II building boom in Sicily. Over the next few decades, the Sicilian Mafia flourished, expanding its criminal empire and becoming, by the 1970s, a major player in international narcotics trafficking.

http://www.history.com/topics/origins-of-the-mafia

Post-Fascist revivalIn 1943, nearly half a million Allied troops invaded Sicily. Crime soared in the upheaval and chaos. Many inmates escaped from their prisons, banditry returned and the black market thrived. During the first six months of Allied occupation, party politics in Sicily were banned.[22] Most institutions, with the exception of the police and carabinieri were destroyed, and the American occupiers had to build a new order from scratch.[23]
By the beginning of the Second World War, the Mafia was restricted to a few isolated and scattered groups and could have been completely wiped out if the social problems of the island had been dealt with ... the Allied occupation and the subsequent slow restoration of democracy reinstated the Mafia with its full powers, put it once more on the way to becoming a political force, and returned to the "Onorata Societa" the weapons which Fascism had snatched from it.Michele Pantaleone[24]

As Fascist mayors were deposed, the Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories (AMGOT) simply appointed replacements. Many turned out to be former Mafia members, such as Calogero Vizzini and Giuseppe Genco Russo.[25][26]They easily presented themselves as fascist dissidents[27] and their anti-communist positions strengthened their bids for political offices. Mafia bosses reformed their clans, absorbing some of the marauding bandits into their ranks.[28]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_mafia_during_the_Mussolini_regime#cite_note-servadio91-25

This is the problem with the Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ancer-and-death-rates-in-naples-a6794236.html

An Italian parliament-mandated health survey has confirmed higher-than-normal incidents of death and cancer among residents in and around Naples, thanks to decades of toxic waste dumping by the local Camorra mob.

The report by the National Institute of Health said it was "critical" to address the rates of babies in the provinces of Naples and Caserta who are being hospitalized in the first year of life for "excessive" instances of tumors, especially brain tumors.
 
Even segments of the USA suffer from similar plights that have detrimental effects on IQ.

The people of Flint, Michigan.

http://time.com/4441471/flint-water-lead-poisoning-costs/

Peter Muennig, a professor of public health at Columbia University, calculates that the elevated blood lead levels found in more than 8,000 Flint children since 2014 will lead to $395 million in social costs based on the likelihood of lower IQ levels for those exposed, leading to lost economic productivity, reliance on welfare and costs to the criminal justice system. Muennig estimates those losses will amount to 18,000 fewer healthy years for those exposed.


“It’s a huge cost even if it’s spread over a large group of people,” Muennig says.



Poor people in NYC

https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/pu...ion-air-pollution-and-poverty-lowers-child-iq

Children born to mothers experiencing economic hardship, who were also exposed during pregnancy to high levels of PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons), scored significantly lower on IQ tests at age 7 compared with children born to mothers with greater economic security and less exposure to the pollutants. The findings by researchers at the Columbia Center for Children’s Environmental Health (CCCEH) at the Mailman School of Public Health appear in the journal Neurotoxicology and Teratology.
PAH are ubiquitous in the environment from emissions from motor vehicles, oil, and coal-burning for home heating and power generation, tobacco smoke, and other combustion sources. (More on PAH and ways to limit exposure can be found on the CCCEH website.)
The researchers followed 276 mother-child pairs, a subset of CCCEH’s ongoing urban birth cohort study in New York City, from pregnancy through early childhood. Mothers self-reported maternal material hardship during pregnancy and at multiple time points through early childhood. Material hardship is a measure used to assess an individual’s unmet basic needs with regard to food, clothing, and housing. The Columbia researchers, led by Frederica Perera, PhD, DrPH, director of CCCEH, previously reported that prenatal exposure to airborne PAH during gestation was associated with developmental delay at age 3, reduced verbal and full scale IQ at age 5, and symptoms of anxiety and depression at age 7.
At age 7 years, researchers used the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children to assess IQ. PAH-DNA adducts in cord blood provided an individual measure of prenatal exposure to the pollutants. The researchers observed that, among children whose mothers reported greater material hardship, the group with high levels of PAH-DNA cord adducts significantly scored lower on tests of full scale IQ, perceptual reasoning, and working memory compared to those children with lower levels of adducts. Statistically significant interactions were observed between both prenatal and recurrent material hardship and high levels of cord adducts on children’s working memory scores. The same significant relationships between adducts and IQ were not observed in the low material hardship group.
The findings add to other evidence that socioeconomic disadvantage can increase the adverse effects of toxic physical “stressors” like air pollutants. The present results suggest the need for a multifaceted approach to reduce PAH exposure and alleviate material hardship in order to protect the developing fetus and young child.
“The findings support policy interventions to reduce air pollution exposure in urban areas as well as programs to screen women early in pregnancy to identify those in need of psychological or material support,” says Dr. Perera, lead author of the paper.
 
Gentlemen, imo the problem is that you are assuming that data produced by Richard Lynn is reliable. It's not, as has been pointed out over and over again. I don't have the time to do the search, but the studies done of his abysmal methodology are easily accessed. In my opinion, to really analyze IQ correctly you would need a battery of one on one tests lasting hours which rely as little as possible on learned information, focusing on things like digit recall, manipulation of shapes etc. Obviously, that is impractical, but you still have to make sure that the paper and pen or computer tests are the same exact tests administered in the same way.

Even then, researchers have to go in agenda free and applying at least a modicum of common sense. To give you an example of what I mean: one of the pieces of data which Lynn used is the supposed average IQ results from schoolchildren in the Milan public schools, which came out as around 103 or 104 (which would, btw, be at the very top of the European numbers. What he either didn't know or chose to ignore is that half of the schoolchildren in Milano are of southern Italian/Sicilian extraction. To carry out his scheme, what IQ would northern Italians have to have?

More generally, I do believe that it's impossible to get a real fix on "aptitude" using these kinds of tests. Too much of what is tested is still down to "learned" skills, so bad schools are going to affect the scores.

Nutrition is a separate and more involved issue in terms of Italy, so I'll address it in the next post.
 
Cont'd. As I said, generally nutrition is very important in terms of IQ, not only the nutrition of the infant but the nutrition of the mother during the entire period of gestation. Modern Southern Italy and Sicily cannot be used for this kind of analysis. The condition of southern Italian and Sicilian farmers and laborers for hundreds of years, really from the 1200-1300s perhaps, can best be compared to modern day areas of Africa or perhaps India. It was none too good even into the post war period, and was abysmal during the war. None of the bounty that was produced was for them to consume. It was co-opted by confiscatory practices imposed by their overlords, many of whom were indeed of foreign extraction.

This was true to some extent in northern Italy as well, in the areas where large landholding estates were the norm, such as in the Po Valley, where malnutrition reigned, resulting in extraordinary levels of pellagra and tuberculosis. However, this was balanced by the numbers of people in other areas who either had their own small landholdings, or had decent tenant/farmer contracts with the landowners, or were already part of the artisan and middle classes. The appalling conditions paved the way for the strong agrarian reform movements and the later growth of the socialist and communist parties.

I agree with Sile as to the source of the problem. We're talking here about the systematic plunder of the land and the people of the south over hundreds and hundreds of years by foreign overlords and what can only be called collaborators. Everything of any value whatsoever was confiscated, and absolutely nothing was put back into the land or to introduce more crafts or, God forbid, industry. Every effort was made to keep the people illiterate so that "foreign" ideas would not "infect" them.

Whoever recently amended the article on Southern Italy for WIKI knows his stuff. I couldn't summarize it any better.

"Denis Mack Smith, British historian, describes the radical difference between the Northern and the newly annexed Southern Italy in 1860, for these two halves were on quite different levels of civilization, pointing out that the Bourbon in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies were staunch supporters of a feudal system and that they had feared the traffic of ideas and had tried to keep their subjects insulated from the agricultural and industrial revolutions of northern Europe.[21]The above-mentioned study by Denis Mack Smith is confirmed by the Italian historian and left wing politician Antonio Gramsci in his book "The Southern Question", by which the author emphasizes the "absolutely antithetical conditions" of Northern and Southern Italy at the time of the Italian Unification in 1861, when South and North united themselves again after more than one thousand years.
Gramsci remarks that, in the North of Italy, the historical period of the Communes had given special boost to history and in Northern Italy existed an economic organization similar to that of the other states of Europe, propitious to further development of capitalism and industry, whereas in Southern Italy history had been different and the fatherly Bourbon administrations produced nothing of value; the bourgeois class did not exist, agriculture was primitive and insufficient to satisfy the local market, there were no roads, no ports, the few waters that the region had were not exploited, due to its special geographical feature.[22]

"
Life conditions of the people of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies are illustrated also by Raffaele De Cesare,[23] who reports the lack of interest from the king of Naples Ferdinand II to do useful works to change the neglected conditions of public hygiene, particularly in the provinces where scarsity of sewer systems and often water shortage were known issues. [24]



"The problem of Brigandage is explained in the book "Heroes and Brigands" by the southern Italian historian and politician Francesco Saverio Nitti outlining that Brigandage was endemic in Southern Italy, where for centuries monarchy based itself on Brigandage, that had become like a historical agent.[25] Unlike Southern Italy, Brigandage was generally little in the other annexed states of northern and central Italy like: Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, Duchy of Parma, Duchy of Modena, Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Papal States, because the situation of Southern Italy was very different, owing to the previous centuries of history.


According to the southern Italian historian Giustino Fortunato,[26] and Italian institutional sources [27] the problems of Southern Italy existed before the Italian Unification, in this regard Giustino Fortunato underlines that the Bourbon were not the only ones responsible for southern problems, that had ancient and deep origins also in previous centuries of poverty and isolation, caused by foreign dominations and governments."


In literature the period of 1860 is described by the Sicilian writer Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa in his famous novel The Leopard (Il Gattopardo) set in Sicily during the years of the Italian unification, in a famous final scene prince Salina, when invited to join the senate of unified Italy, answers to an important Piedmontese officer " … the Sicilian will never want to change, because the Sicilian feels perfect …", by which and by other words the author underlines the problem for the Sicilians to change their old life style while remaining in their island. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Italy#Early_modern_history


I'm not saying that any of this would necessarily affect children born in the last 20 or 30 years in terms of nutrition, but it does explain the past, and cultural attitudes toward education, for example.

As far as I'm concerned the last rulers of Sicily, for example, to actually be good stewards of the land were the Moors, with the possible exception of the Normans and Frederick II. Certainly, once the Spanish Bourbons took control it was all over, which is why the fact that so many southern Italians are nostalgic for them boggles my mind.
 
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Some choice quotes from the OP:

"A possible explanation for the northern regions having had higher IQs than the southern regions at least from 1880 and possibly from 1400 to 1600 is that the populations of the north and south are genetically different and these genetic differences are related to differences in intelligence. “

- I was genuinely surprised to hear that they were doing IQ tests back in 1400AD.

“They note also that the Sardinians are genetically more closely related to the Greeks, Lebanese and North African Berbers than to central and northern Europeans (Cavalli-Sforza et al., 1994, pp. 78, 274). “

- This doesn't sound right about the Sardinians. Perhaps the DNA tests were a bit lacking back in 1994??
 
"- I was genuinely surprised to hear that they were doing IQ tests back in 1400AD."
I know, common sense, right?
And I think Sardinians would be closer to Greeks (but not close in general and North Africans and Lebanese are mostly levant Neolithic? If that's close to EEF then maybe they'd be closer to them as well I guess) than north and central euros due to them being almost completely European farmer and more "southern." I don't think any group is more EEF than they are.
 

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