R1* in North America, South-East Asia and Australia

I totally agree Sparkey. I better place to look at R1 would be the Algonquian tribes... that area is already a hotspot of debate because of X2. Early R1 in modern day New York state would give even further credence to Atlantic routes.
 
Old thread and quite exciting. I was just wondering why, if the arrows are used as potential proof of contact between European technology and native american, couldn´t this exchange have happened in Siberia? For example if there are two accepted migrations into America with two groups of basically similar tribes, was that just chance or couldn´t they have just stayed in contact with the Siberians updating the Americans on technology? What is the arrow technique was developed in the Americas and went through Siberia into Europe.

Isn´t it possible that the second wave of immigration into America was simply invited in and guided? Perhaps hard to prove, but why would the Bering straits have to be a one way street. I think it is funny that people get precious over this subject, the world after all is a globe. An Irish Monk got near to Cananda in a canoe, it can´t have been that hard or completely unknown of. I can understand those who did know about a way didn´t spread it about, maps have always been preciously guarded, but to think the Americas couldn´t have been discovered multiple times by different people is more ridiculous in my opinion. When I grew I thought it was likely that someone else had found America before Columbus, but it was impossible to say it. Now we are told an Icelandic European "discovered" it first. It seems the further forward in time we go the further back we see.

Of course, we shouldn´t forget multiple people invent things (or re-discover them) at the same time all the time. The TV, the telephone, the radio, oddly there is usually a few people who come up with similar ideas in different locations somewhat independently. Probably because the same issues are arising in their lives. That there is technology regression also shouldn´t be surprising, most Cro Magnons could probably navigate by the stars, I doubt many Europeans could do this on a dark night. The Chinese regressed in technology quite markedly after their massive boon where it is even suspected a Chinese admiral "discovered" America.
 
EAB said:
Old thread and quite exciting. I was just wondering why, if the arrows are used as potential proof of contact between European technology and native american, couldn´t this exchange have happened in Siberia? For example if there are two accepted migrations into America with two groups of basically similar tribes, was that just chance or couldn´t they have just stayed in contact with the Siberians updating the Americans on technology? What is the arrow technique was developed in the Americas and went through Siberia into Europe.

Isn´t it possible that the second wave of immigration into America was simply invited in and guided? Perhaps hard to prove, but why would the Bering straits have to be a one way street. I think it is funny that people get precious over this subject, the world after all is a globe. An Irish Monk got near to Cananda in a canoe, it can´t have been that hard or completely unknown of. I can understand those who did know about a way didn´t spread it about, maps have always been preciously guarded, but to think the Americas couldn´t have been discovered multiple times by different people is more ridiculous in my opinion. When I grew I thought it was likely that someone else had found America before Columbus, but it was impossible to say it. Now we are told an Icelandic European "discovered" it first. It seems the further forward in time we go the further back we see.

Of course, we shouldn´t forget multiple people invent things (or re-discover them) at the same time all the time. The TV, the telephone, the radio, oddly there is usually a few people who come up with similar ideas in different locations somewhat independently. Probably because the same issues are arising in their lives. That there is technology regression also shouldn´t be surprising, most Cro Magnons could probably navigate by the stars, I doubt many Europeans could do this on a dark night. The Chinese regressed in technology quite markedly after their massive boon where it is even suspected a Chinese admiral "discovered" America.
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All valid points EAB. We discussed the first paragraph in Suletrean hypothesis thread. There could have been 2 way movement of people through Bering Strait. It is more likely however that new arrow tip was invented in Siberia and went with people both ways to America and to Europe by means of R1 folks. In this case we don't need to worry about 2 way movement through the Bering Strait, or technology making it all the way from America to Europe or vice versa, or being reinvented.
 
EAB said:
Old thread and quite exciting. I was just wondering why, if the arrows are used as potential proof of contact between European technology and native american, couldn´t this exchange have happened in Siberia? For example if there are two accepted migrations into America with two groups of basically similar tribes, was that just chance or couldn´t they have just stayed in contact with the Siberians updating the Americans on technology? What is the arrow technique was developed in the Americas and went through Siberia into Europe.

Isn´t it possible that the second wave of immigration into America was simply invited in and guided? Perhaps hard to prove, but why would the Bering straits have to be a one way street. I think it is funny that people get precious over this subject, the world after all is a globe. An Irish Monk got near to Cananda in a canoe, it can´t have been that hard or completely unknown of. I can understand those who did know about a way didn´t spread it about, maps have always been preciously guarded, but to think the Americas couldn´t have been discovered multiple times by different people is more ridiculous in my opinion. When I grew I thought it was likely that someone else had found America before Columbus, but it was impossible to say it. Now we are told an Icelandic European "discovered" it first. It seems the further forward in time we go the further back we see.

Of course, we shouldn´t forget multiple people invent things (or re-discover them) at the same time all the time. The TV, the telephone, the radio, oddly there is usually a few people who come up with similar ideas in different locations somewhat independently. Probably because the same issues are arising in their lives. That there is technology regression also shouldn´t be surprising, most Cro Magnons could probably navigate by the stars, I doubt many Europeans could do this on a dark night. The Chinese regressed in technology quite markedly after their massive boon where it is even suspected a Chinese admiral "discovered" America.
Click to expand...

Great points.

Exchange of technology, artifacts, and even haplogroups can happen in multiple directions, and can also happen repeatedly. For example, there are many Scandinavian-linked I1, Q1a, and R1a y-haplotypes in England today. Can we, today, determine which of those are remnants of Viking settlement and which derive from 16th century Danish merchants? Perhaps there are a few cases where we can, but otherwise the time period is stretching the capabilities of genealogy to its limit.

A similar thing is happening with my own y-haplotype of R1b-M222. Since the documentary evidence points to the presence of my paternal ancestors in the USA from at least 1820, it makes it unlikely that my particular copy came to the USA via potato famine migrants. That fact in no way allows one to conclude that it must, therefore, not be from Ireland. The reality is that there were two separate, major Celtic migrations to the USA, one in the 1700's and one in the 1800's.

One of the more recent examples of a major discovery that was made twice by two separate people at about the same time was Calculus - developed by Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz.
 
Colombus wasn't the first to find America, but his discovery of America lead to the modern Americas. Icelanders found America and nothing came of it. They weren't as sophisticated navigators, map makers, traders, etc. as the empires several hundred years after them.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Colombus wasn't the first to find America, but his discovery of America lead to the modern Americas. Icelanders found America and nothing came of it. They weren't as sophisticated navigators, map makers, traders, etc. as the empires several hundred years after them.
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That's a good point. The ancient Greeks invented the steam engine, but then did nothing with it (slave labor was cheap, who needs this weird gizmo?).
 
What is interesting historically is that the first response of people upon finding new land wasn't to tell the world "Hey, we've got a load of other humans here. Shall we make friends?" The Dutch, Portugese and Chinese kept their discoveries well hidden. The Chinese on the extreme purged many of their discoveries from the common mans' knowledge, much in the way of the Catholic church had depositories of banned science, to keep the status quo. In fact in China the regression in technology led people to become physically smaller because the feudal system meant agriculture suffered and people had to eat less. If someone found America and found a way to keep it secret because they had a trade advantage anytime in the last 12,000 years, they would have and did. There are other reasons for this apart from trade too, such as just not being believed. There is a story about a inuit who was ridiculed after telling his tribe what he had seen in Copenhagen. When the next person from the tribe went to Copenhagen, he told them "there was lots of fish there and the penguins were plentiful".

With the Catholic Church, the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the Chinese purging their own knowledge, I wonder what has been lost.
 
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