R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[American Idiot]

If i had to theorize on the subject, id associate rl21 with the atlantic regions of bell beaker culture, i thought early iberian bell-beaker was r1b p312 star.

I agree with you that R1b-L21 is associated with the Bell Beaker culture. But Bell Beaker culture was spread all over the Atlantic part of Europe and even in Germany. To me, that explains the early presence of R1b-L21 and it's wide spread over much of western Europe. But it flourished in frequency in the British Isles and diminished in frequency on the continent for reasons I already stated. I cant PROVE invasions and assimilation are the exact reasons why R1b-L21 is found at lower frequency on the continent, but that is what makes the most sense to me. Its just my opinion.

 

[adamo]

The 2 most likely candidates for bell-beaker culture are r-l21 and rp312, ive always thought early bell beaker of iberia to have spread via p312 but only l21 can explain bell beaker presnceon the british isles . I suspect early bell-beaker to have been p312 with later l21 expansions to the british isles etc.

 

[American Idiot]

The 2 most likely candidates for bell-beaker culture are r-l21 and rp312, ive always thought early bell beaker of iberia to have spread via p312 but only l21 can explain bell beaker presnceon the british isles . I suspect early bell-beaker to have been p312 with later l21 expansions to the british isles etc.

I agree with that.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

The distribution of R1a and R1b doesn't make sense if they both came *together* from the east. If they'd come *together* the proportions would be similar across Europe

I've been imagining all sorts of odd routes R1b could have come that could explain the distribution but the simplest explanation I hadn't thought of was simply they didn't come *together*. Either R1b expanded first followed later by R1a or R1a *pushed* R1b westwards.

This scenario would fit an initally I Europe with G farmers coming through the middle swamping the I in the center and separating the remaining I into refuges north and south followed by R1b first and then later R1a also coming through the middle and swamping G.

#

"here is no actual proof R1b-L21 originated in England either or that R1b of ANY kind had anything to do with the Franco-Catabrian refuge in the LGM, for that matter"

Except if some clades of R1b were spread by a metalsmith/trader caste then they might follow the same trade network created by the megalithic culture and if they entered a region with very low population density like Ireland they might have a dramatic founder effect.

 

[Sile]

The distribution of R1a and R1b doesn't make sense if they both came *together* from the east. If they'd come *together* the proportions would be similar across Europe

I've been imagining all sorts of odd routes R1b could have come that could explain the distribution but the simplest explanation I hadn't thought of was simply they didn't come *together*. Either R1b expanded first followed later by R1a or R1a *pushed* R1b westwards.

This scenario would fit an initally I Europe with G farmers coming through the middle swamping the I in the center and separating the remaining I into refuges north and south followed by R1b first and then later R1a also coming through the middle and swamping G.

#

"here is no actual proof R1b-L21 originated in England either or that R1b of ANY kind had anything to do with the Franco-Catabrian refuge in the LGM, for that matter"

Except if some clades of R1b were spread by a metalsmith/trader caste then they might follow the same trade network created by the megalithic culture and if they entered a region with very low population density like Ireland they might have a dramatic founder effect.

with this paper below clearly indicating that R parent P formed in south-east Asia

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/refined-structure-in-haplogroup-k-m526.html

then the clearest 2 options are
1- R also formed in SE-Asia
2- P back tracked to the north-india area and R formed , it then went in 2 directions ....north to form R1a and south to form R1b

Clearly you need to deal with the linked paper first to then move forward to see where R originated from.

 

[Tomenable]

Let's remember that ca. 6000 years ago (4000 BC) those people were few in numbers. Rb-M269 and R1a-M198 formed respectively ca. 13600 and 14300 years ago, but for more than half of their history they remained very few in numbers, most likely undergoing many demographic bottlenecks during that time. Only later, in period ca. 6000 - 4000 years ago (4000-2000 BC), they - apparently together (at least at the beginning) - underwent a huge a demographic expansion, greatly propagating both in numbers (begetting dozens of new very successful lineages) and in geographic extent (spreading over most of Eurasia, as we know from aDNA and modern distribution).

Probable TMRCA shows when a given male lineage started to expand in numbers after the last severe bottleneck:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

R-M269 formed 13600 ybp, TMRCA 7000 ybp
================================
R-L23 formed 7000 ybp, TMRCA 6300 ybp
R-Z2103 formed 6300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
R-L51 formed 6300 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
R-L151 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5100 ybp
R-U106 formed 5100 ybp, TMRCA 5100 ybp
R-P312 formed 5100 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp
R-DF27 formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp
R-L21 formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp
R-U152 formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/

M-198 formed 14300 ybp, TMRCA 8400 ybp
================================
R-M417 formed 8400 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp
R-Z645 formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp
R-Z282 formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp
R-Z280 formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
R-Z93 formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
R-Z94 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
R-Z2124 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
R-M458 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
R-Z284 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp

Between ca. 6000-5500 ybp (4000-3500 BC) and ca. 4500-4000 ybp (2500-2000 BC) things get rapid.

In that period a lot of new successful descendant lineages "pop up" in a short timespan.

But expansions of those male lineages were not necessarily massive migrations of numerically large populations. Those could be patriarchal clans ruled by powerful chieftains, migratng and propagating their offspring after having settled/conquered.

 

[Twilight]

Do you guyS know how far North and West in England the Italic people(R1b-U152 Z56 and Z192) penetrated.

Despite R1b-U152 being of partial Italic origin, they don't seem to form a triangle geographically speaking like Haplogroup E-M123 for example;also a Roman Haplogroup.

 

[Angela]

Do you guyS know how far North and West in England the Italic people(R1b-U152 Z56 and Z192) penetrated.

Despite R1b-U152 being of partial Italic origin, they don't seem to form a triangle geographically speaking like Haplogroup E-M123 for example;also a Roman Haplogroup.

I have no idea what that means...

There are numerous maps of U-152 in Europe, including Britain.

This is Eupedia's:

I believe I saw the following map on Anthrogenica:

Which group(s) brought it to Britain is an open question.

See the following for Maciamo's position:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

 

[Twilight]

I have no idea what that means...

There are numerous maps of U-152 in Europe, including Britain.

This is Eupedia's:

I believe I saw the following map on Anthrogenica:

Which group(s) brought it to Britain is an open question.

See the following for Maciamo's position:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

True, but there is no map for R1b-z56, R1b-z192, R1B-L2 and R1b-z36 (All haplotypes are daughter clades of R1b-U152

It would be interesting to see how the Gauls and Belgae faired in populated Britania vs the direct descendants of Italic tribes living in England.

For example, can Ydna prove that the R1B-U152 Romanizd Gauls/Belgae trbes made it to Lancashire or even scotlad, if so what percentage of people from Lancashire have the R1b-z56 or R1b-z192 subclades that went with the Gauls?

My sources:
I'm getting my info from the end of the 2nd paragraph: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#romans
Here is the polygenetic tree of R1b-U152: https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...rees-of-R1b-L21-R1b-DF27-and-R1b-U152;780;426

 

[brianco]

Latest maps for U152 subclades including Z36, Z56 etc

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=ymap

True, but there is no map for R1b-z56, R1b-z192, R1B-L2 and R1b-z36 (All haplotypes are daughter clades of R1b-U152

 

[Potentia]

Question.

Right. Well. I have a question. My have U152 as my haplogroup, and my last name originates in the region of Galicia. How did U152 manage to get there?

 

[Tomenable]

Which Galicia ???

Iberian Galicia, or what used to be one of Austrian Habsburg crownlands - the Kingdom of Galicia-Lodomeria?:

Habsburg Galicia encompassed 2 historical regions - Lesser Poland (West Galicia) and Halychyna (East Galicia).

According to Supplementary Table S4 from Myres 2010, frequency of R1b-U152 is:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html

In Poland 3,47% (n=202), in Czech Rep. 3,4% (n=87), in Slovakia 2,5% (n=276), in West Ukraine 1,92% (n=156).

 

[Potentia]

Which Galicia ???

Iberian Galicia, or what used to be one of Austrian Habsburg crownlands - the Kingdom of Galicia-Lodomeria?:

Habsburg Galicia encompassed 2 historical regions - Lesser Poland (West Galicia) and Halychyna (East Galicia).

According to Supplementary Table S4 from Myres 2010, frequency of R1b-U152 is:


In Poland 3,47% (n=202), in Czech Rep. 3,4% (n=87), in Slovakia 2,5% (n=276), in West Ukraine 1,92% (n=156).

Iberian Galicia. U152 seems to fairly rare there.

 

[RobertColumbia]

Iberian Galicia. U152 seems to fairly rare there.

I would guess that a Roman connection is likely. Your ancestor may have been a Roman soldier from Italy who was assigned to Galicia and decided to settle down there.

 

[Potentia]

I would guess that a Roman connection is likely. Your ancestor may have been a Roman soldier from Italy who was assigned to Galicia and decided to settle down there.

Right. I've been thinking that is one possible explanation. However, since U152 has a fair presence in Great Britain, I was thinking that it may come from some Romano-Britons who escaped Britain when the Anglo-Saxons invaded. Going off of this map, is it a possibility that one of those people that escaped carried U152?

 

[MOESAN]

subclades could tell us; U152 were carried by more than a population; in Britain I suppose the late Gauls and Belgae send some, after them some Saxons could have send some. and Romans too. I think too the ancient Ligurians could have had high enough proportions....

 

[Potentia]

subclades could tell us; U152 were carried by more than a population; in Britain I suppose the late Gauls and Belgae send some, after them some Saxons could have send some. and Romans too. I think too the ancient Ligurians could have had high enough proportions....

Right. Subclade. Based on my research. I think my subclade may be U152 L20. L20 is a subclade of L2, which, according to this site, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln had. So, is it possible it came with the Briton migration to Galicia?

 

[brianco]

My 'new' SNPs May prove useful eventually


PF6658, Z193 found in quite a few European samples. Unfortunately this SNP is unreliable in testing and is only found by SNPs downstream of it (I think)!


S20550 found in the Netherlands and UK.


FGC30121, Y6354 and Z10676 all UK.


The sample RISE563 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+ all SNPs were negative or no-calls. It was found in a Bell Beaker grave from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_Migrant_Local_Compare.png

 

[mr_y82]

When I was young...

A very interesting read!

American Idiot and adamo, I enjoyed the banter even though it was a little hostile! I know it´s been a while, but after reading all 8 pages I felt entitled to respond! haha. I tend to think the evidence agrees with the Idiot (the American one, since they were both called that at at least one point!), lol... The high concentration of L21 in the British Isles can, I think, be explained as American Idiot did (and Maciamo), but I am new to this and just trying to learn and understand it! I also agree that the smaller L21 legacy on continental Europe does indicate its likely origin there, possibly closer to the area of higher concentration today, and then it diffused in both directions, but favored the West and also got diluted as per American Idiot´s description? That is a question, not a statement of fact.... I am not qualified to make a statement of fact... :grin:

In recent times my ancestors came from Germany; my subclade is R1b1b2a1a2d* (23&me, I think its nomenclature is outdated) seems to represent, in my case, Swiss Anabaptist ancestry (surname Yutzy... interestingly, my direct line was with an Anabaptist group that migrated into Poland and later my direct line migrated back to Central Germany... maybe they left a little R1b in Poland too?

I used to think I knew what words like ¨Celtic,¨¨German,¨ and¨Roman¨ meant, and now I am starting to realize how much more complex it is! The wealth of knowledge that people here, of very different persuasions, seem to have impresses me. I appreciate the conversation and just wanted to say thanks to all that contributed.

Being U152, I thought I post up what my 23&me test revealed (this is on the ¨speculative¨ setting):
-only a very small fraction (.2%) of Italian DNA (one reason I personally favor ¨Gaulish¨ origin)
-a slightly larger fraction of Iberian and Scandinavian (~2% each)
-mostly German/French, (it does not differentiate)
-the genetic legacy (~15%) of a few Scots/Scotch Irish ancestors...
-a smidgen (.2%) of North African... Moorish invasion?)...

So, I am inclined to lean towards a Celtic/Gaulish origin for U152, in or around Switzerland/Austria... but I am new to this and have very little clue what I am talking about! I suppose it could have moved up into the Alps from northern Italy instead? I´m relying on you guys to find that out for me, haha.

There are virutally no Native AMericans left in the part of the U.S. I live in although at one time it was overrun with them.

This cracked me up... I think your general logic elsewhere makes a great deal of sense, and I am inclined to agree with your many posts, but the above statement made me laugh! It´s almost as if it implies that the Americas were an overpopulated cesspool of indigenous peoples! lol... I know you didn´t mean it like that... I live in NC near the Cherokee reservation... The fate of the Natives is far from a laughing matter, but your statement was humorous! Speaking of which... According to family folkore, I should be 1/64th Cherokee, but my genetic test could not confirm this... As I am sure you are aware, it was common for Southerners to use that as a cover story for Sub-Saharan African genetic influence, which was common in the South (about 2/3rd carry the legacy of the Slave Trade), but not commonly accepted! Not sure how many Cherokee were available in Pennsylvania, but that´s the supposed family history, lol... I am first generation North Carolinian, and accordingly don´t seem to have that Sub-Saharan influence (my wife does, her family has much deeper roots here).

The R-S28 DESCENDED from south-central Germany and the Marne region of France (la tene core areas) TOWARDS Switzerland and eventually north italy. The Italians DID NOT during romanization bring the R-S28 to France. Nor any other haplogroups for that matter; maybe around less than 5%; same for England.

I think most agree on the direction, and even time period of spread, but I guess the ancient origin won´t be know until more data is available... I have no clue as to these specifics, and even being able to converse about it makes you way more qualified than me to have an opinion! Seems to be a lot of smart people here with a wealth of knowledge and differing opinions that leave me feeling mildly confused!

 

[Pax Augusta]

I have no idea what that means...

There are numerous maps of U-152 in Europe, including Britain.

This is Eupedia's:

I believe I saw the following map on Anthrogenica:

Which group(s) brought it to Britain is an open question.

See the following for Maciamo's position:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

True, but there is no map for R1b-z56, R1b-z192, R1B-L2 and R1b-z36 (All haplotypes are daughter clades of R1b-U152

It would be interesting to see how the Gauls and Belgae faired in populated Britania vs the direct descendants of Italic tribes living in England.

These maps were made by Anthrogenica's user Passa.

R1b-U152 and its subclades Z56, Z36, L2. Unfortunately, no map of Z192.

Z56 is considered Italic, Z36 Gaulish and L2 more continental Celtic or Italo-Celtic.

Given the R1-U152 subclades distribution in Passa's maps, it seems reasonable to suppose:

Z56 is likely a proto-Villanovan/Italic subclade, as its higher distribution in Central-Southern Lombardy, Emilia, Tuscany, Umbria and Northern Lazio shows.

Z36 is likely a Gaulish subclade, the last wave of Gaul-Celtic people who settled Northern Italy, and to some extent Central Italy (modern-day Northern Marche)?

L2 is likely the oldest Celtic or Italo-Celtic subclade in Italy. In Northwestern Tuscany, Southeastern Liguria and Southwestern Emilia L2 is clearly a Celto-Ligurian subclade. Also very high its distribution in Northwestern Piedmont, and Northeastern Italy (Trentino-Alto Adige, Veneto, Northern Friuli).

Maciamo's phylogenetic tree of R1b-U152.