R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[American Idiot]

R1b P312* lineages have been in France since long before your little "romanization" same as virtually the rest of the entire French hap.

I NEVER said the Romans brought P312 into France. again thank you for misreading my post.its like the 3rd or 4th time you've done that.

I said the reason why R1b-L21 is so low in most of France today, not including Brittany, is because R1b-L21 was in France before the Romans but due to assimilation with them as well as with other Celts (R1b-S28) who were coming in from Central Europe in pre-Roman times, then R1b-L21 is found at significantly lower percent in France today than in the British Isles.

again, you still have no explanation as to how R1b-L21 supposedly originated in England and somehow ended up in other part s of western europe (besides Brittany)

you keep avoiding the main question......maybe you're getting a headache, must be hard having a theory based on complete B.S.

and you obviosuly arent even reading most of my posts and replies as you seem to be misquoting much of what I have said already.



al the name callng in the world still doesnt help you explain how R1b-L21 is found from Iberia to France to Germany if it originated in England, as you claim.

yeah, for the 50th time I know its in low frequency I am the one who said it was in low freqency if you read my posts you'd see that instead of repeating yourself 50 times in a row.
but it is found, in LOW Frequency, in Iberia, Italy, France (not just Brittany), Belgium, Germany. so if it originated in England as you say then how did it spread to all these other areas of western europe? just answer the question why dont you?

 

[adamo]

Cause maybe very little of it ever arrived in france, or spain, or germany. No. Not also due to assimilation with romans. R1b u152 may have ORIGINATED in france or nearby. I already explained to you , Romanization did not affect the genetics of france. : )

 

[American Idiot]

Note south-central Germany is a Halstatt area not la tene; la tene culture succeeded and developed out f Halstatt culture. The romanization of England and France DID NOt change these region's ancient genetic structures (although there may today be a few more E-V13 or hg T men walking around in England but trust me this genetic impact was extremely minimal).

that part of Germany was also part of the La Tene culture as well, later on. The La Tene culture was widespread and included part of Southern and Central Germany.

if you seriously think the romanization of France had no impact on the genetic make up of its inhabitants then you have never seen a modern day Frenchman and I really do feel sorry for you since you live in Italy of all places.

and I already said the romanization of Englad had no impact on it's genes. That is one reason why R1b-L21 is common in England today, again thank you for stating what I already said in a previous post.

 

[American Idiot]

I already explained to you idiot, Romanization did not affect the genetics of france. : )

how can you seriously say that?
now you are just playing dumb.....you are PLAYING dumb, right?

you seriously mean to tell me, that no significant part of the population of France shares their genes in any major way with Italians or other southern-Euros today?

ok, you are just ignorant as hell. go back to reading Bryan Sykes

what makes you think the Romanisation of Gaul had no major genetic impact on the population?

everything else says otherwise

 

[adamo]

Again with your continuation on la tene culture, stating the obvious. No. The romans did not significantly alter french genetics at all, its more like the other way around, with historically multiple gallic invasions of northern italy. Yes, thats exactly what im telling you. I didnt say north italians or italians in general are not genetically similar to french, in many ways, what i said is the Romanization of france didnt significantly alter its original genetic history .

 

[American Idiot]

Cause maybe very little of it ever arrived in france, or spain, or germany.

not a real explanation.....you are just fishing, obviously

 

[adamo]

Its as appropriate an answer as you could get, what if there never was any\much l21 in portugal, germany or central france to begin with, it IS the youngest branch of r1b p312, estimates say it originated only 3,500-2,500 years ago, i personally believe it originated near the west atlantic of course , towards england.

 

[American Idiot]

The R-S28 DESCENDED from south-central Germany and the Marne region of France (la tene core areas) TOWARDS Switzerland and eventually north italy. The Italians DID NOT during romanization bring the R-S28 to France. Nor any other haplogroups for that matter; maybe around less than 5%; same for England.

again you are stating what I said in my posts already. Thank you for copying me.

I agree with you on this. If you actual learn to READ then you would know that

 

[adamo]

U are a liar, look into every r1b thread including r-s28 an see how long ive been saying this. U are only embarassing yourself here.

 

[American Idiot]

Its as appropriate an answer as you could get, what if there never was any\much l21 in portugal, germany or central france to begin with, it IS the youngest branch of r1b p312, estimates say it originated only 3,500-2,500 years ago, i personally believe it originated near the west atlantic of course , towards england.

yeah it is the youngest, and it's found from Britain to Iberia to Germany in VARIOUS frequencies. It seems like it was once wide spread in the early Bronze age in western europe, but due to other factors such as invasions, war, assimilation etc..., it had a major decline in it's frequency on the continent. It thrived in the British Isles because they were isolated from alot of the wars and invasions going on in the rest of western europe until later. Britain being an Island and all, that makes sense.

It's the same reason, its found at highest frequency in the WEST of Britain and Scotland etc... because those areas were not impacted as much by Saxon invasions and others as the East of Britain was,. The same thing for the continent. It's higher in Britain than on the continent today (except for Brittany) because Britain was not impacted as much by the invasions and wars and stuff that took place on the continent, historically. Makes perfect sense.
That is is why its still found at lower frequency on the continent but at much higher percent in Britain, IMO

 

[American Idiot]

U are a liar, look into every r1b thread including r-s28 an see how long ive been saying this. U are only embarassing yourself here.

I never said you didnt say it. Again, thank you for misreading my post. You really seem to be making it a habit now.

 

[adamo]

Prove that they were once more widespread across western europe but then they were killed off or assimilated. To me the basal p312 seems like this atlantic coast iberian group u mention, whereas the youngest l21 always had a center of weight in the british isles.

 

[American Idiot]

Prove that they were once more widespread across western europe but then they were killed off or assimilated. To me the basal p312 seems like this atlanti coast iberian group u mention, whereas the youngest l21 always had a center of weight in the british isles.

its the widely accepted view of most experts. I take their word over yours or that idiot Bryan Sykes you seem to love so much. And they make sense.
why dont you prove it originated in England and spread out?

 

[American Idiot]

whereas the youngest l21 always had a center of weight in the british isles.

prove it. where are the sources?

 

[adamo]

Oh alright, because the experts said so. I know for a fact that m222 originated on ireland, thats one of the only places in the world with m222 and its older in ireland than in the rare english\scottish samples so it is heavily assumed by bias almost to have an irish origin and having slightly spread nearby .

 

[American Idiot]

Oh alright, because the experts said so.

well they are experts, after all
and it is the most widely held view among EXPERTS

there is no actual proof R1b-L21 originated in England either or that R1b of ANY kind had anything to do with the Franco-Catabrian refuge in the LGM, for that matter

so why are your views based on those ideas?

 

[adamo]

Who are thesde experts, which studies?

 

[American Idiot]

you first?..., you're the one claiming R1b-L21 came from England. The burden of proof falls on you. and while you're at it, prove or show the experts who still claim a LGM origin for R1b.....


I know the whole LGM theory on R1b is incorrect and widely dis-proven. and that is your basis for an Atlantic/ British Isle origin for R1b-L21

keep believing grossly outdated BS if you want....that's your problem.
and YES the Oldest clades of R1b are the East, not in Western Europe.


but you also said the Romanisation of Gaul had no major impact on the genetic make up o France today (ha)... so I dont expect a serious answer from you.

 

[adamo]

If i had to theorize on the subject, id associate rl21 with the atlantic regions of bell beaker culture, i thought early iberian bell-beaker was r1b p312 star.

 

[adamo]

Yes the oldest clades are in the east as r1b first originated in russia probably.