Is Europe Superpower?

....

There is no sense to occupy Georgia because no one planned it & Georgia by itself is a encumbrance. Yes, encumbrance becasue it's poor country even by the standards of post-Soviet space. Georgia and Central Asia have always been a economic encumbrance for the Soviet Union. Georgia got the hit in the nose for her aggressive actions, nothing more.

if georgia would be just an encumbrance, then cuba also was a encumbrance for USSR. additionally, georgia is an alternative petrol and natural gas route to russia-ukraine line. azerbeijan, kazakhistan, turkmenistan are big petrol producers and they dont have sea to transport them.
 
As for EU, I think that what Europe need is mutual assistance. When Italy met the problem with influx of immigrants, no one helped.
Sorry but i don't totally agree...

France tried to help them, we don't close our frontiers and we started a discussion about Schengen agreement. Europe will change the situation...

So that is ridiculous to speak about EU as about superpower
We can't be a "Superpower" because we have differents point of view on it?

It's ridiculous to try to unify our nations?
We try to have an European army, an European economy, an European laws and social system...and that's just the beginning...
 
if georgia would be just an encumbrance, then cuba also was a encumbrance for USSR. additionally, georgia is an alternative petrol and natural gas route to russia-ukraine line. azerbeijan, kazakhistan, turkmenistan are big petrol producers and they dont have sea to transport them.

Cuba was a burden since 1962, yes. But there is a little bit other story, no one cared about Cuba until the moment when Americans placed the PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey in 1961 year. Soviets decided to answer with the same coin. The moment was very lucky & convenient. In Cuba through the revolution Fidel Castro got the power in 1959 year, he wanted to end with role of Cuba as cheap brothel for Americans and to end with the local corrupted dictator Fulgencio Batista. He made his revolution not under communist flag or something, that was pure Cuban event.

No one will attack Georgia just because exist some plans about Nabucco Pipeline to bypass Russia. If Europe is so afraid of Russia's resources then Russia will sell surplus of resources to China, China is fast growing world factory and don't feel the lack of funds. Money doesn't smell.
In addition there is a lot of peaceful methods to influence Central Asian countries.
 
Sorry but i don't totally agree...

France tried to help them, we don't close our frontiers and we started a discussion about Schengen agreement. Europe will change the situation...

We can't be a "Superpower" because we have differents point of view on it?

It's ridiculous to try to unify our nations?
We try to have an European army, an European economy, an European laws and social system...and that's just the beginning...

From Russia sequence of events looks like:
- Italy got a lot of immigrants
- Italians asked for help
- No one helped because no one really cares about problem of Italy
- Italians decided to give Schengen visas for immigrants in revenge
- France closed border with Italy (for immigrants)
- Revision of the Schengen agreements ....etc... endless shifting of responsibility, every one cares only about own "village" and common institutions of government in Brussels have no authority. Sorry but EU parliament looks like nursery school, all what parliamentarians are doing is blaming each other for the lack of democracy.

Honestly I wish all the best to europhiles and all other people who want see Europe as rich powerful united state, even if such perspective in some sense pretty risky for Russia. In XVIII century Russia rapturously supported the independence of the United States from the British Empire, bad that nobody knew what a headache it will turn.
 
In Cuba through the revolution Fidel Castro got the power in 1959 year, he wanted to end with role of Cuba as cheap brothel for Americans and to end with the local corrupted dictator Fulgencio Batista. He made his revolution not under communist flag or something, that was pure Cuban event.
Oh, you were reading soviet books again. Just knowing the fact, that soviets were the masters of propaganda, should had pointed you in the right direction.
Castro was power hungry, demagogue that told people lies to get them fighting, to got him into power. It would explain why he was a ruffles dictator for last 50 years. For 50 years Cubans lived in poverty and lack of freedoms, like slaves.
Do you really believe that Castro did all of this to his people, because he cared for them?! :petrified:


In addition there is a lot of peaceful methods to influence Central Asian countries.

I agree, but unfortunately none of these methods are known to Russia. :LOL:
 
anton why both US and Russia send their armies to georgia?

lebrok, as far as i can understand, no ex-USSR countries hate USSR. the education level is considerable high in those countries. and they could adopt to west easily after divorcing. russia seem to me fair wrt other superpowers in the history.

but, may be i am wrong.
 
Barbarian, do you actually think that Stalinist USSR were fair when they annexed Baltic states and then deported to Gulangs and killed thousands of people there? :useless:
 
lets see.

first what is power and in what fields,

1, a power must have enough Energy, and minerals to produce extra, and to be less depended,
according that USA China Russia Brazil South-Africa etc could be powers
but not that much Germany or France, But the whole EU could be.
Energy can be oil, sun power Hydro power wind etc

2, Must have enough population to defend her shelf, or to invade
By that Kuwait is rich country but can not be super power,

3, must have solve all inner problems, and the politicians must not be quided by Bankers,
Hmmmm difficult. that makes countries like India or Turkey Giants with feet made of thin glass

4 must have an economy to be less spend than others, in that North Europe is far ahead,
Scandinavia and Germany are far ahead.

5 must have secrets of production so that other countries must depend to their products, (must be have secret techology) in that england and France are quite good,
But USA CHINA RUSSIA are far ahead, (Israel is very good to that)

6, people must be well educated so in difficult cases they must know how to react,
even Hygiene rules are included, (think SIDA problem in south Africa) that makes some new powers to be still behind.

So for me USA is a super power, Russia is a super Power, China is Super power
India Brazil Japan UK France Germany Pakistan and the whole EU are still powers

Turkey South-Africa Persia(Iran) Indonesia Colombia Australia Canada Korea can be powers.

also some African countries like Zair (Kongo) Egypt Nigeria Kenya if manage to handle Sun power and inner problems they can developed enough to become powers
 
Barbarian, do you actually think that Stalinist USSR were fair when they annexed Baltic states and then deported to Gulangs and killed thousands of people there? :useless:
i dont know much about what happened in the USSR era, but, what i see after USSR collapse, lots of well educated and considerable industrialized small countries. some of them still prefers communist or socialist goverments. i believe the life would be much worse in the central asia countries now, if they were not a part of USSR.

again, may be i am wrong. i dont know much about USSR.
 
barbarian, you're missing one of most interesting and horrific periods of modern European history. Get few books dude.

I agree that some of central Asian countries wouldn't be economically and educationally better without soviets, though many of them had to die for it. On other side of the spectrum European soviet-block countries would be better off without the "red vampire".

If we are talking about Baltic states, plus Poland, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungary or Ukraine there is not much love for Russia here. We are still waiting even for apology. Anton doesn't believe that Russia did something wrong, and probably most Russians neither.
 
Do you really believe that Castro did all of this to his people, because he cared for them?! :petrified:

Castro had great successes in medicine, education and self-determination of Cuba, he was very popular among common Cubans. Yes, Cubans live very poorly today, that's result of command economy and U.S. blockade. Have no idea why they still practice command economy if even Russia refused 20 years ago. Probably for them is enough to have sandy warm beaches and fruits.

Castro is not saint, but it far not as bad as retard dictators as cannibal Jean-Bédel Bokassa or african dictator Idi Amin which had a special pool with crocodiles / aligators for those who disagreed with his policies or Saddam Hussein which had pool with sulfuric acid.

By the way, I hope you don't think that US never supported dictators?
Saddam Hussein was a big friend of America during his war with Iran, he got a lot of weapons from USA.
Or story with Mohammad Mossadeq, the first democratic president of Iran which was elected in august 1953 and overthrown with big participation of CIA and replaced by the dictator Shah Pahlavi. It was made just because Mossadeq was for nationalization of some oil enterprises. Democratically elected Salvado Allende in Chile is the same story, USA was very loyal to Augusto Pinochet because he did not want to nationalize American companies, unlike Allende. Where is democracy?
Or American ally absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia where is still repressive dictatorship and laws like death penalty for change of religion (betraying of Islam), forced amputation of hands & legs for petty offenses and other savagery.
 
Yes you right,
CIA polices and support to crazy inhuman dictators is wrong and a bad thing,

Now let me see, what was Stalin?
was he a CIA dictator? hmmm quess not,
was he elected every 4-5 years by the people? hmmm quess not,
then?
All i know is that he ordered many people to go to siberia and build cities in temperatures >-20 C
with no food and warm,
Yes he was Clever than Hitler, Hitler did not thought to put his enemies (Jews) to build cities,
he just killed them,
Stalin as smarter he let them die, by Building cities and villages in criminal conditions,
yes it is better than to send them swim in a pool full of crocodiles,

the case of Castro and Che is another story, simply he is not that mad (paraphron)
 
anton why both US and Russia send their armies to georgia?

lebrok, as far as i can understand, no ex-USSR countries hate USSR. the education level is considerable high in those countries. and they could adopt to west easily after divorcing. russia seem to me fair wrt other superpowers in the history.

but, may be i am wrong.

US send severel ships to Georgia for moral support of their puppet, the main purpose of that puppet to spread stench on the doorstep of Russia. Georgia totally depend from USA: Georgian officials receive a salary from America, not from local budget; USA supply Georgia by offensive weapons even today; gives credits; send instructors to train the Georgian army; Georgian president has American adviser which is constantly with him; during conflict Russia's soldiers killed a lot of black african mercenaries so USA helps them with manpower. There is even street of "George Bush" in Tbilisi.
But Georgia is not a democracy of something, it is disguised authoritarian country. 1st president Gamsakhurdia lost his power because of revolution, second president Shevardnadze lost power because of "revolution of rose" in 2004, Mikhail Saakashvili will end his presidency in the same way if he will not stop to press the opposition. Georgia despite of American help is very poor and have big problems with unemployment, real incomes hardly grow.

Strongly negative attitude to USSR have all 3 Baltic states because they were annexed by force, it was decision of Stalin. I would not do it of course because that have not sense to transform your country in the prison of nations, no one knows today what head of this Georgian priest thought about.
Strongly negative attitude to USSR also have East Europe, especially the Czech Republic and Poland. Czech Republic because their uprising of 1968 year was suppressed by force. I think Soviets thought this is not acceptable to let one of the countries of the Warsaw bloc to go in free-swimming at the height of the Cold War. They feared a domino effect.
Eastern Europe and others should not forget that Soviets got Eastern Europe by accident, during the war against Nazism. They had not plans to invade Europe before WWII. In some sense the Soviet domination in Eastern Europe is a payment for the second world war. Czechoslovakia did absolutely nothing to protect themselves from Hitler. This is a retribution of fate in some sense.

In Ukraine western (to west from Kiev) part have negative attitude to USSR, but their is special case. Western Ukraine always was a pain in the ass. Before XIII century these lands were Orthodox Christians, but later when common historical state of Ukraine and Russia ceased to exist (because of the Mongol invasion), western Ukraine came under the influence of Poland. This part has replaced original Orthodox religion by Catholicism and lost contact with the roots. Western Ukraine was a part of Poland from XIV to early XVIII century; was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire up to the WWI; became part of Poland again after WWI; again was annexed to Soviet Ukrainian Socialist republic after WWII; since 1991 year is a part of independent Ukraine. While Russia had absolutely other history, Russia defeated Mongols after a long period of payment of tribute and turned into a huge multi-cultural country.
Western Ukraine is a trouble because it's a center of far-right Nazi sentiments, extremely chauvinistic and aggressive, with national heroes like Stepan Bandera - mass murderer of Jews, Poles and Ukrainians. And of course they blame Russia for all their problems. Ask "Europa" user, sure she/he from that place.

Although, to name USSR as colonial power is hardly possible. Soviets helped a lot to own satellites, Ukraine during Soviet Era built aircraft carriers, merchant ships, submarines, had a lot of research institutes, powerful machinery production plants, huge amount of money, time & forces were spent on the development of Ukraine and other Soviet Republics. Ukraine before Soviet Union represented by itself a wild field overgrown with grass.
It's only in American Cold War propaganda movies Soviets always showed as maniacs with mental disorders which love to kill people for no reason, but reality is a "little bit" differ.

Belorussia, Eastern Ukraine, Central Asia have nothing against Soviet Union. Central Asia actually was saved from religious fundamentalism by Soviet atheism.
 
Yes you right,
CIA polices and support to crazy inhuman dictators is wrong and a bad thing,

Now let me see, what was Stalin?
was he a CIA dictator? hmmm quess not,
was he elected every 4-5 years by the people? hmmm quess not,
then?
All i know is that he ordered many people to go to siberia and build cities in temperatures >-20 C
with no food and warm,
Yes he was Clever than Hitler, Hitler did not thought to put his enemies (Jews) to build cities,
he just killed them,
Stalin as smarter he let them die, by Building cities and villages in criminal conditions,
yes it is better than to send them swim in a pool full of crocodiles,

the case of Castro and Che is another story, simply he is not that mad (paraphron)

Which relation have Stalin to Cuba theme? I don't understand
 
Which relation have Stalin to Cuba theme? I don't understand


simply almost none,

Stalin Belongs to the groups of Bloody Dictators, (the ones you call CIA agents)
he used to see conspiracies everywhere.
while Castro is still under discuss, on how much Bloody he is as a dictator,
(it can't be so much innocent, but surely is more innocent than some bloody presidents)
yes the case of Ossetia is in modern debates,
But personally I don't know who to support,
the case from autonomistic groups there is Huge,
from chechnia to abhajia the place is powder, a time cloak bomb.
where oil pipes pass, bombs are on the way,
look at Levant, Balkans, Georgia, Ucraine,
OIL pipes or Gas pass under land,
 
simply almost none,

Stalin Belongs to the groups of Bloody Dictators, (the ones you call CIA agents)
he used to see conspiracies everywhere.
while Castro is still under discuss, on how much Bloody he is as a dictator,
(it can't be so much innocent, but surely is more innocent than some bloody presidents)
yes the case of Ossetia is in modern debates,
But personally I don't know who to support,
the case from autonomistic groups there is Huge,
from chechnia to abhajia the place is powder, a time cloak bomb.
where oil pipes pass, bombs are on the way,
look at Levant, Balkans, Georgia, Ucraine,
OIL pipes or Gas pass under land,

Yeah, Stalin is a bad man, I don't like him.
 
US send severel ships to Georgia for moral support of their puppet, the main purpose of that puppet to spread stench on the doorstep of Russia. Georgia totally depend from USA: Georgian officials receive a salary from America, not from local budget; USA supply Georgia by offensive weapons even today; gives credits; send instructors to train the Georgian army; Georgian president has American adviser which is constantly with him; during conflict Russia's soldiers killed a lot of black african mercenaries so USA helps them with manpower. There is even street of "George Bush" in Tbilisi.

what you wrote explains, what i am trying to say. georgia is important for US. with the current situation in Iran, georgia and ukraine is very important for US and russia in terms of the transportation of the caucasian energy to europe. orange revolution was made in ukraine for this reason. georgia is very important for turkey also since there is an armenian blockage in front of azerbeijan and turkey. i believe, US will use turkey against russia in the future for this reason.

thanks for advice lebrok. i will have some books:)) i need to do it. because my daughter is half russian
 
what you wrote explains, what i am trying to say. georgia is important for US. with the current situation in Iran, georgia and ukraine is very important for US and russia in terms of the transportation of the caucasian energy to europe. orange revolution was made in ukraine for this reason.

Caucasus have no energy resources by itself, the middle Asia have. But if even someone will build a pipeline to bypass Russia then they need also a natural gas / oil for filling of pipeline. Problem for them is that Russia already outbids the lion's share of Central Asian gas (gas transportation system connected with Central Asia since Soviet Union) + China buys a lot there, there is simply not enough gas for pipeline.
And all that Nabucco project have no progress for 10 years already, it looks like half-dead. In Gorbachev style - talking talking talking... :LOL:
The same story with shale gas in Europe, bullshit & splurge :grin:

georgia is very important for turkey also since there is an armenian blockage in front of azerbeijan and turkey. i believe, US will use turkey against russia in the future for this reason.

I think US have not big influence on Turkey, Turkey looks pretty independent in foreign policy. Turkey have contacts with Iran, very skeptical about intervention in Libya, and not big lover of Israel policy. Russia & Turkey have around 50-75 billions of trade every year (and it growing), don't think that someone will sacrifice it just for the US foreign policy caprices.
In problem of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Russia just don't want that war between Armenia & Azerbaijan will begin again, this is a road to nowhere.
 
Caucasus have no energy resources by itself, the middle Asia have. But if even someone will build a pipeline to bypass Russia then they need also a natural gas / oil for filling of pipeline. Problem for them is that Russia already outbids the lion's share of Central Asian gas (gas transportation system connected with Central Asia since Soviet Union) + China buys a lot there, there is simply not enough gas for pipeline.
And all that Nabucco project have no progress for 10 years already, it looks like half-dead. In Gorbachev style - talking talking talking... :LOL:
The same story with shale gas in Europe, bullshit & splurge :grin:



I think US have not big influence on Turkey, Turkey looks pretty independent in foreign policy. Turkey have contacts with Iran, very skeptical about intervention in Libya, and not big lover of Israel policy. Russia & Turkey have around 50-75 billions of trade every year (and it growing), don't think that someone will sacrifice it just for the US foreign policy caprices.
In problem of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Russia just don't want that war between Armenia & Azerbaijan will begin again, this is a road to nowhere.

to be the energy provider of the europe gives russia gives strategical advantages. you could understand this during the ukraine (gas stealing) crisis. georgia could be nice alternative to ukraine also. russia would prefer multi-customer, instead of china.

nabucco is a european project to create an alternative route to russia-ukraine line. if it fails, it shows that they are looking for some better solutions.

although i accept the idea of importance of russia for turkey, loosing georgia means loosing the the gate of caucasia, and turkic countries for turkey.
 
well that is a part of truth.
there are 2 pipe lines
Nabuco and South Stream

1 is Russian-Bulgarian-Greek-Italian project
2 is USA-Turkey most, Greek or Bulgarian, Fyrom,Kossovo Bosnia -Croatia project

the first from Abchaz (russia) to Burgas (Bulgaria) to Hgoumenitsa(Greece) and from there to Brindezi (Italia) and in Future to Naples so can move to spain

the second from Azerbaijan through Turkey to Greece or Bulgaria, from there to Fyrom, Kossovo, Bosnia-Croatia and then to Italy north,

the first although Greece has made and ready the pipes stoped due to Bulgaria demands,
the second was a great promise from USA with large quantities, but until today not even 1/10 of the year quantity has passed.
why?
cause the tax earned by the pipes could save Greek economy,

The future is not in Caucas but in east mediterrean,
the more the oil prices raise the less expensive is the oil Turkey Greece Cyprus Israel Egypt Albania, Bulgaria

the first 'eye' of Gas and oil is among Greece Turkey and Cyprus east of Crete, west of Cyprus,
the second is Cyprus Israel Lebanon Turkey south of Adana,

the minors are Egypt Israel Cyprus
Greek Albanian of Cephallonia and Aulon (Vlore) (Its is Huge but very Deep,
it starts from south west Greece and goes up to El Basan)
Ahtopols (Bulagaria) to Semisounta (Samsus) North of Anatolian earthquake tectonical cut.

Billion of money were spend to build from Burgass to Adriatic pipe lines, and no oil and small m3 of gas passed,
why?

the case of Georgia is just an impression, or to create unstability,
Russia is using (I think Novoroshisk is the name) another exit, while Georgia is using batum and Shochum, from Ossetia no body pass, yet problem is Ossetia.

the case of Ucraine is Gas pipes, and the Taurica ports, ex-USSR fleet bases are there. so indeed is a problem,
Taurica belong to Russia before Chruchev but he gave it to Ucraine,

the case of Russia with Turkey is another issue,
Russia only needs north Ossetia just to create a secure dinstance from its pipes, and unstability to Georgia,
Georgia needs Ossetia and Abchazia to create unstabilty to Russia,
But Georgia is a christian country, so the less the cristian teritories occupies, the more becomes islamic, so the dilemma is stronger,

puppets or mercenairies are everywhere.

Georgia needs USA so not to be again USSR country and more autonomus,
Georgia needs Russia so not be islamic and a new tottaly changed country,

Turkey wants to be the merchants of oil of the areas east of Caucas to Europe,

Nabuco is project that is not finished and never will be,
Nabuco was a USA promises just to stop South Stream
USA and turkey promises 11 000 000 m3 of Azerbaizan gas and oil that will pass, but 4 000 m3 gas are given each year,

simly in future the east mediterrean gas and oil will be in debates,

Barbarian you know that,
Turkey has casus Beli with Greece, Cyprus, for the 12 miles sea zone, and is not in good with Iesrael,
 

This thread has been viewed 49057 times.

Back
Top