Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 41 of 41

Thread: New data from Montenegro and Serbia

  1. #26
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands





    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    I also thought so, but not anymore. I2a2 Dinaric South is definetely Serbian marker on Balkan. I believe that Croats were predominantly R1a.
    I think it is way to early to state this... there is not enough data...

    it's hard to say anything about proto-Croats before detailed sampling is done in the area that proto-Croats did originally settle and around it...area they initially settled is likely between Split and Istra... unfortunatelly, that area was not sampled so far...though, Maciamo has hotspot of haplogroup G exactly there on his image concerning G spread (so I wonder where he got data for this)... hotspot of G may indicate that proto-Croats were related to Alans ...but it can as well be due to Liburnians...

    R1a is definetly strong for Croats... even in scenario that proto-Croats were mostly I2a2, they did spend lot of time creating white Croatia which was quite big state from what I can see (just look at all counties in Czech republic, Slovakia and south Poland that have chessboard coat of arms)... during that time they are likely to have absorbed lot of R1a...

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-12-10
    Posts
    13
    Points
    1,702
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,702, Level: 11
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 148
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Serb
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    hotspot of G may indicate that proto-Croats were related to Alans
    Yes, I read somewhere that there was a some G markers in Slavonia, in particular it was in Osijek about 10-15%.
    What about the K* marker in Serbs? It comes at 7.4% in Bosnian Serbs (marjanovic), and 7.08% in Serbs from Belgrade according to Pericic.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    260
    Points
    6,758
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,758, Level: 24
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 292
    Overall activity: 80.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by StillSRB View Post
    Yes, I read somewhere that there was a some G markers in Slavonia, in particular it was in Osijek about 10-15%.
    What about the K* marker in Serbs? It comes at 7.4% in Bosnian Serbs (marjanovic), and 7.08% in Serbs from Belgrade according to Pericic.
    Probably some markers were not tested so these percentages should be K descendants. These are primarily N1* found in couple of other studies, but also T and L haplogroups.

    Some people think N1* could have Hunnic origin.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    15-12-10
    Posts
    18


    Country: USA - Kentucky



    Quote Originally Posted by StillSRB View Post
    I think you are mixing up modern ethnic groups with very old y-haplogroups, which is never a good idea. In the study about 27% of Montenegrins belong to the E haplogroup, the same haplogroup which reaches its peak in Europe in Kosovar Albanians. This doesn't mean the two mixed in the last 100 years or even last few hundred years. What it does mean is that when the two different haplogroups did first meet there was mixing and assimilation mostly of the E haplogroup in Serbia and even more so in Montenegro. This doesn't make anyone who belongs to the E haplogroup any less of a Serb or Montenegrin.
    I didnt mix anything up you can clearly read what iapodos wrote about albanian mixing. I am simply stating it never happened on a large scale.

    All I say for ev13 being unusual in montenegro is that montenegro is a continuation of the dinaric alps where I2a is at like 60%+ especially in herzegovina. Just doesnt make sense that montenegro only has 30% or roughly half of what neighbors to the north herzegovina have. Also living in mountains minimizes mixing and invaders. and there should be continuity over same geographic features and that the ev13 in montenegro is not albanian in origin rather of whoever lived in the balkans prior to the slavs

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    iapodos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-05-10
    Posts
    149
    Points
    3,857
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,857, Level: 18
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 393
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan View Post
    I didnt mix anything up you can clearly read what iapodos wrote about albanian mixing. I am simply stating it never happened on a large scale.
    All I say for ev13 being unusual in montenegro is that montenegro is a continuation of the dinaric alps where I2a is at like 60%+ especially in herzegovina. Just doesnt make sense that montenegro only has 30% or roughly half of what neighbors to the north herzegovina have. Also living in mountains minimizes mixing and invaders. and there should be continuity over same geographic features and that the ev13 in montenegro is not albanian in origin rather of whoever lived in the balkans prior to the slavs
    Few people from Montenegrin clans were tested at Ftdna and there are:
    Ozrinici, Piperi, Pivljani, Petrovic Njegosi and they are all I2a. It also appeared that Vasojevic clan is E1b because two individuals from Vasojevic clan with no common ancestor in last 300 years have almost identical E1b haplotype. So, there are Montenegrin clans with E1b. I suppose that those clans most eastward are good candidates for E1b. Kuci, for example and also the clans around Skadar Lake. Peak region of E1b in Europe is Northern Albania and Kosovo and I don't know why are you so surprised with high percent of that haplogroup among Montenegrins which is nearby nation to Albanians. It is also well known fact that some clans have its Albanian and Montenegrin part, like Kuci, not to mention legends about common forefather.
    If you are surprised about higher percent of I2a in Serbia than in Montenegro, you should have on mind that not all of I2a in Serbia is from Dinaric Alps which is clasified as Dinaric South. There is also significant amount of Dinaric North in Serbian haplotypes. So the I2a came to Serbia from two directions, from Dinaric Alps as Dinaric South and from Macedonia and northern Greece as Dinaric North. It corespond with migration routes along the river Morava from the south and from Dinaric mountains to Sumadija.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    28-02-10
    Posts
    140
    Points
    2,834
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,834, Level: 15
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 216
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    This research is bogus ,for couple of reasons.

    They kept it "closed" as national research.

    The guys who made it corrected the table on Croatian forum,after we pointed them out that sum of of all Y-dna percentages are not equal to 100%.

  7. #32
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    This research is bogus ,for couple of reasons.

    They kept it "closed" as national research.

    The guys who made it corrected the table on Croatian forum,after we pointed them out that sum of of all Y-dna percentages are not equal to 100%.
    actually, even though text is not available for free to everyone, that research led by American scientists and published in one of top magazines in area is quite open, as it published openly table with all samples, which is not the case with "research" orchestrated by Croatian scientists that e.g. forged 42% of I2a2 for Croatia by taking around half samples from 3 scarcely populated islands (Hvar, Brac and Korcula) in south Croatia (where all together like 40 thousand people live and where I2a2 is over 55%) together with half of samples from the rest of Croatia (where more than 4 milion people live)...

    comparable fraud would be e.g. to chose half samples from Sardinia and half samples from rest of Europe, and say that Europe has 25% I2a1...

    well, see for yourself:
    http://cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992a.html

    btw. all the 3 islands in south Croatia (Hvar, Korcula , Brac) with over 55% I2a2 were part of Pagania, as was the area around Neretva river in Hercegovina from where samples for Bosnian Croats mostly come from...

    those people are not native Croats, they were assimilated into Croats when they became catholics...
    only historic source that talks of their origin in fact claims that they origin from unbaptized Serbs

    Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus stresses that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized." [1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania
    http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false


    I do wonder why are Croatian nationalists so stucked to obsession with I2a2, when based on its extremely uneven spread in Croatia, it is obviously recent admixture in Croatian nation, either from previous inhabitants, or from Serbs, or from both... you know, it's not like I2a2 can make you higher worth or more Germanic (or lol Arian :) or whatever is your trip.... I2a2 is just a set of letters and digits used to name one of many equally worth branches in classification of Y-DNA data....

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    28-02-10
    Posts
    140
    Points
    2,834
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,834, Level: 15
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 216
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, even though text is not available for free to everyone, that research led by American scientists and published in one of top magazines in area is quite open, as it published openly table with all samples, which is not the case with "research" orchestrated by Croatian scientists that e.g. forged 42% of I2a2 for Croatia by taking around half samples from 3 scarcely populated islands (Hvar, Brac and Korcula) in south Croatia (where all together like 40 thousand people live and where I2a2 is over 55%) together with half of samples from the rest of Croatia (where more than 4 milion people live)...

    comparable fraud would be e.g. to chose half samples from Sardinia and half samples from rest of Europe, and say that Europe has 25% I2a1...

    well, see for yourself:
    http://cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992a.html

    btw. all the 3 islands in south Croatia (Hvar, Korcula , Brac) with over 55% I2a2 were part of Pagania, as was the area around Neretva river in Hercegovina from where samples for Bosnian Croats mostly come from...

    those people are not native Croats, they were assimilated into Croats when they became catholics...
    only historic source that talks of their origin in fact claims that they origin from unbaptized Serbs



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania
    http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false


    I do wonder why are Croatian nationalists so stucked to obsession with I2a2, when based on its extremely uneven spread in Croatia, it is obviously recent admixture in Croatian nation, either from previous inhabitants, or from Serbs, or from both... you know, it's not like I2a2 can make you higher worth or more Germanic (or lol Arian :) or whatever is your trip.... I2a2 is just a set of letters and digits used to name one of many equally worth branches in classification of Y-DNA data....


    why dont you go there and tell them that.

    ...and to all your posts,you are like stereotype of low self esteemed Great-Serb,a joke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaOdaF80xxM

    For the research i know how it was made by my personal experience with it.

  9. #34
    Marquis Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post

    why dont you go there and tell them that.
    whatever...
    I would not be surprised if Croatian research was faked in order to hide the inconvenient issue that it might be the case that significant part of Croats especially among Hercegovians and Dalmatians like you, actually origin from Serbs.

    ...and to all your posts,you are like stereotype of low self esteemed Great-Serb,a joke.
    people always see what they want or need to see... I guess you are not exception in that respect....
    nothing I can or want to do to make your viewppoints more realistic...
    that's up to you...




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaOdaF80xxM


    For the research i know how it was made by my personal experience with it.
    seems as interesting movie.... did you watch it? is it good?

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    716
    Points
    9,077
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,077, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 273
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    whatever...
    I would not be surprised if Croatian research was faked in order to hide the inconvenient issue that it might be the case that significant part of Croats especially among Hercegovians and Dalmatians like you, actually origin from Serbs.

    people always see what they want or need to see... I guess you are not exception in that respect....
    nothing I can or want to do to make your viewppoints more realistic...
    that's up to you...

    seems as interesting movie.... did you watch it? is it good?

    It's amazing:

    how some Croats want to be more I because a majority of them belong haplogroup R1a

    on the other hand, some Serbs want to be more R1a but almost 50% of Serbs belong I haplogroup and only about 14% haplogroup R1a, by Mirabal et al (2010).


    There is no reason that people like to be I if they are R1a or R1a if they are I, it's just senseless, everyone has his origin of which should not escape or to hide behind what is not.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered
    Imperium Romanorum's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-05-10
    Posts
    35

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a

    Ethnic group
    Serb
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Garrick

    We Serbs are what we are...and theth is I haplogroup..
    ..we are old europian people..
    I haplogrupe is indigenous haplogroup of Europe...

    Others can go if they are not pleased :)

    Поздрав Браћо Срби!
    Христос се роди!

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-01-11
    Posts
    6


    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Iapodos,

    Where did you get the haplogroup for those Montenegrin clans? How would you know if a last name from FTDNA database is from a specific clan, especially if the last name shows up in 15 different places and in 7 different clans?

    I would doubt that Piperi are I2a. I see them a stronger candidate for E1b1b. The same should be true for Bratonozici, Pastrovici, Mrkojevici (alongside Vasojevici and Kuci for which we already have some individual haplotypes).

    Cheers.

    Bosniaco, E1b1b1

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    100
    Points
    2,429
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,429, Level: 13
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 21
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    Maciamo has hotspot of haplogroup G exactly there on his image concerning G spread (so I wonder where he got data for this)... hotspot of G may indicate that proto-Croats were related to Alans ...but it can as well be due to Liburnians...

    I believe they were ProtoCroats and protoSerbs. Serboi and Choroatti were iranan speaking Alans. They must have been small in numbers so they lost their original language. You seem to agree that a small group could be proto-something in your case protoCroats. Since you would like to detach yourselves from Croats you do not see that percentage is the same in Serbia almost 0 or up to 2 %.Also in bosnian Serbs there are 2,7% of G, but Bosnian Croats have 0%.There is only 0,9% to 2% of G in Croatia.

    These hotspots means much more to me than you can think.

    Much of those people from Osijek are my relatives. So, as you are saying my acestors could have been residing in that area for so long, that they even forgot about it. I personaly do not know yet.
    Last edited by Ivan; 12-01-11 at 14:54.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    100
    Points
    2,429
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,429, Level: 13
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 21
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    proto Croats and proto Serbs also could have had I2a2 as to go along with G as sarmatian proto group . Numbers of I2a2 are unknown to me:
    1. they could be less then G ( if we agree with Ossetians)
    2. They could be the same numbers as G (my estimate)
    3. Or they could be even higher than G

    Even in this 3. case they wouldn`t be noticable enough since they blend so nicely with I2a2 which is, by my opinion, indigenous by far.

    So the Key for this sarmatian idea is language (iranian) and my group G (since it could be represented as a nice marker of what happened ).

    1. Similar percentages of G in Serbia and Croatia speaks for a connection. Also these people of Balkan share similar culture so it looks like G is of same stock.I believe it crosses the borders of FYROM, but doesn`t enter Greece and does not mix with Greek G which arrived 6000 years ago and maybe 2800 yers ago (if we accept idea of hittites landing and staying in Greece soil).
    2. Original language was lost since this group was very small.

    So, both proto Serbs and proto Croats were of sarmatian origin, and partly of sarmatian culture but, i believe I2a2 was mostly indigenous to Balkan. THe R1a group that arrived along with Alans could be of White Croatia and White Serbia.

    This doesnt mean Serbs and Croats are the same. It just means similar (I2a2,R1a) and with names arriving in the same time. Those G and I2a2(sarmatian) mean nothing to present day numerous groups. People of Croatia and Serbia are in fact different in aspect of Serbia having E3b and Croatia having more R1a and R1b. The whole connecting story is just a story of addoption of names and sarmatian style of fighting.

    Both group were known in Bysantine time as good fighters so they were invited to protect borders from invading tribes. Todays mix of people of Balkan is rich in history and blending of warrior cultures.
    All other aspects of this stories shoud be taken into account when talking about history of Balkan.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    15-12-10
    Posts
    18


    Country: USA - Kentucky



    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post

    why dont you go there and tell them that.

    ...and to all your posts,you are like stereotype of low self esteemed Great-Serb,a joke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaOdaF80xxM

    For the research i know how it was made by my personal experience with it.
    your expereince means squat as you croats have a way of say twisting things for example where is the magical 7% T highest frequency in europe in this study ehh???

    Also why where all studies of croats done by croats yet american study of serbs is twisted LOL

    They can think they're dogshit doesnt mean its true....

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    360
    Points
    4,921
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,921, Level: 20
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland



    Seems that Montenegro is a crossroad between Albanians and Balkan Slavs.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Sea in Montenegro (Photos)
    By julia90 in forum Eastern Europe
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-07-14, 21:08
  2. Replies: 69
    Last Post: 23-06-14, 01:20
  3. montenegro dna
    By Sile in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 18-07-13, 10:55
  4. Montenegro votes for independence from Serbia
    By Maciamo in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-05-11, 01:43
  5. New data on Slovak Y-haplogroup frequencies
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-09-09, 15:41

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •