New data from Montenegro and Serbia

Finally, study from Serbia and Montenegro.
It shows expected percents for Serbia, but I must admit that I am quite surprised for the results from Montenegro and high percent of E1b. On the other side it is understandable, because of Montenegro bordering with E1b peak regions: Kosovo and northern Albania.
So, according to this study, difference between Serbia and Montenegro is ratio I2a:E1b.
In Serbia 2:1
In Montenegro 1:1.
Also interesting question would be, who are I1 people in Serbia and Montenegro.
There is, for example 7,82% of I1 , and only 4,5% of R1b in Serbia, making the I1 on the fourth place haplogroup in Serbia after I2a,E1b,R1a.
 
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Also interesting question would be, who are I1 people in Serbia and Montenegro.

Germanic tribes which invaded Italy conquered Dalmatia also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_kingdom

The other reason for I1 frequency might be movements of Goths in earlier centuries. They were close or passing by Western Ukraine inhabited by I2a2 Din. So they could have mixed there already, and later came to Balkans together.

PS: When calculating percentages pay attention to first column. It shows number of the same haplotypes, so I1 frequency found by this study in Serbia is actually 7,82%.
 
Yes, I've noticed later first column.
And for I1 and Goths, that was also may idea.
But,the other solution could be Normans from south Italy.
Or the Saxon miners in medievial times.
 
Finally,I2a hawe higher percents for Serbia!
 
Germanic tribes which invaded Italy conquered Dalmatia also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_kingdom

The other reason for I1 frequency might be movements of Goths in earlier centuries. They were close or passing by Western Ukraine inhabited by I2a2 Din. So they could have mixed there already, and later came to Balkans together.

PS: When calculating percentages pay attention to first column. It shows number of the same haplotypes, so I1 frequency found by this study in Serbia is actually 7,82%.

Good, cogent point about the Goths and I1. I tend to agree with you here, and can't really think of a better source for the haplogroup in this region.
 
I see the test sized used was finally a bit bigger, however its unfortunate that they want you to purchase the article. Also if you have any other links to Balkan y-haplogroups research please post the links here. I've read the one by Pericic, but that was more focused on Croatia
 
Interesting, I was expecting a higher percentage of I2a in Montenegro; also its unfortunate that it doesn't say from what parts of Serbia were the participants. I would like to see the difference between various parts of Serbia, for example between western and eastern Serbia. Here are a couple of other studies I've come across, if anyone knows about any other studies related to the region please post them.
Bosnia
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/pdf
Balkans
mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html
Croatia
cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf
nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/pdf/5200992a.pdf
 
I took out the http and www because it wouldn't allow me to post urls yet, but I'm sure you can figure it out
 
That is very strange about montenegro considering that I2a is the hg of the slavs who live in the dinaric alps liek for example its at 60% or so in herzegovina and southern croatia... and montenegro lays along that same chain of mountains...

But anyway i cant see this article as it looks like you ahve to buy it which im not sure where you can do that either but would anyone mind posting the exact numbers for all the other haplogroups found here??
 
That is very strange about montenegro considering that I2a is the hg of the slavs who live in the dinaric alps liek for example its at 60% or so in herzegovina and southern croatia... and montenegro lays along that same chain of mountains...

But anyway i cant see this article as it looks like you ahve to buy it which im not sure where you can do that either but would anyone mind posting the exact numbers for all the other haplogroups found here??
It is not strange for Montenegro, especially its eastern part bordering with Albania to have lower percent of I2a. It is well known fact that I2a haplogroup fall dramaticaly in Kosovo Albanians and Northern Albania too. I believe that E1b1 dominating in area of Zeta-Sandzak dialect. There are already some Vasojević clan members which tested as E1b1. On the other side, part of Montenegro known as Old Herzegovina is predominantly I2a. It is obvious on following maps:
Old_Herzegovina.png

Shtokavian_subdialects1988.png
 
Ethnic ALBANIANS have high E values, ethnic montengrins are not ethnic albanians. On those mentioned parts the south close to albania are predimontaely albanian areas eg ulcinj. where these ethnic montenegrins from these areas tested or just people who live there albos included??
 
Ethnic ALBANIANS have high E values, ethnic montengrins are not ethnic albanians. On those mentioned parts the south close to albania are predimontaely albanian areas eg ulcinj. where these ethnic montenegrins from these areas tested or just people who live there albos included??
Ethnic Montenegrins is very discutable term. Just few years ago they were practicaly Serbs. On the either side some parts of Montenegrin society show great resemblance with Albanians. Some of the Montenegrin clans have legends about common ancestors with some Albanian clans. Vasojevic clan I already mentioned.
The study above has been done probably in one city, Podgorica I suppose. Authors states they selected samples considering their regional origins for at least two generations. Honestly I doubt that high percent of E1b1 haplogroup in Montenegro sample is result of tested Albanians in Montenegro.
 
Many Montenegrin tribes were linked with Albanian (line south-west, north-west) and the real situation is that in today's Montenegro I2a2 and E1b1 are in the proportion 1:1.

But one should not interfere a nation that is a political entity with origin.

Some Russian sources call E1b1 this haplogroup: Иллирийцы, хамитский род (Illyrians, Hamitic race).

Although the Romanians, Serbs and Bosnians are mostly I haplogroup, some of them have haplogroup E1b1 and this only showing the connection of the old Balkan population.


For example in Slovenia and Croatia, this haplogroup is a little represented.
 
@Montenegrin is not a disputable term its just that some Montenegrins identify as Montenegrins while others as Serbs. Members of the same family can have different identifcations two brothers even. No ETHNIC Montenegrin identifies as an albanian. To explain Montenegrins are Serbs but we are not exactly the same... there are some i guess you could call cultural differences and the such. But mixing with albanians neevr occured ona large scale they are probably the biggest enemies up until 1913 or so we had been in on and off periods of warfare with them for over half a millenia... same as with the turks. The only semblence with albanian society is what they copied from montenegro notably the clan system. Prior to the turks arriving albos were like nomads they had nothing as far as infrastructure goes. This can also be seen by their last names. Last names in albania range from arabic/turk, to slavic. Whereas almost all serbian and montenegrin and any of the other south slavs last names are south slavic and ending in ic.

@ Garrick
I doubt that haplogroup e is little represented in croatia or slovenia its more than likely they twisted that. In those countries it should be between 10-15% as looking at that area in europe e is at that % for example austrians, slovaks, hungarians, non north germans, north italians etc... are all at around 10% for hg E. doesnt make sense that croats and slovenes lack it that much as all of their neighbors have it. But yes they have it less than serbs or montenegrins do although i do think in the latter it is overly excessive
 
@Montenegrin is not a disputable term its just that some Montenegrins identify as Montenegrins while others as Serbs. Members of the same family can have different identifcations two brothers even. No ETHNIC Montenegrin identifies as an albanian. To explain Montenegrins are Serbs but we are not exactly the same... there are some i guess you could call cultural differences and the such. But mixing with albanians neevr occured ona large scale they are probably the biggest enemies up until 1913 or so we had been in on and off periods of warfare with them for over half a millenia... same as with the turks. The only semblence with albanian society is what they copied from montenegro notably the clan system. Prior to the turks arriving albos were like nomads they had nothing as far as infrastructure goes. This can also be seen by their last names. Last names in albania range from arabic/turk, to slavic. Whereas almost all serbian and montenegrin and any of the other south slavs last names are south slavic and ending in ic.

@ Garrick
I doubt that haplogroup e is little represented in croatia or slovenia its more than likely they twisted that. In those countries it should be between 10-15% as looking at that area in europe e is at that % for example austrians, slovaks, hungarians, non north germans, north italians etc... are all at around 10% for hg E. doesnt make sense that croats and slovenes lack it that much as all of their neighbors have it. But yes they have it less than serbs or montenegrins do although i do think in the latter it is overly excessive

I think you are mixing up modern ethnic groups with very old y-haplogroups, which is never a good idea. In the study about 27% of Montenegrins belong to the E haplogroup, the same haplogroup which reaches its peak in Europe in Kosovar Albanians. This doesn't mean the two mixed in the last 100 years or even last few hundred years. What it does mean is that when the two different haplogroups did first meet there was mixing and assimilation mostly of the E haplogroup in Serbia and even more so in Montenegro. This doesn't make anyone who belongs to the E haplogroup any less of a Serb or Montenegrin.
 
I think you are mixing up modern ethnic groups with very old y-haplogroups, which is never a good idea. In the study about 27% of Montenegrins belong to the E haplogroup, the same haplogroup which reaches its peak in Europe in Kosovar Albanians. This doesn't mean the two mixed in the last 100 years or even last few hundred years. What it does mean is that when the two different haplogroups did first meet there was mixing and assimilation mostly of the E haplogroup in Serbia and even more so in Montenegro. This doesn't make anyone who belongs to the E haplogroup any less of a Serb or Montenegrin.

exactly, belonging to nation is about cultural identity...
Serbs of today have significant E-V13 component, however proto-Serbs who arrived to balkans were likely I2a2+ R1a

in any case, Y DNA haplogroups are about only very small part of our genes, about part that is passed from father to son, from him to his son and so on... so a person who had single ancestor who was E-V13 1000 years ago, might have had in mean time zillion other male ancestors (e.g. his grandfather on mother's side, father of his grandfather on mother's side... father of his grandmother on father's side...) who were I2a2... he inherits genes from all of them equally as from his E-V13 ancestor, but in this classification into haplogroups their contribution is not visible......

point is that haplogroups tell you almost nothing about genetic makeup of an individual, but they make some sense as an indicator of historical movements of tribes...
 
how yes and no

Although there are sources that I2a2 and R1a are treated separately, we must respect the people who watch them together as Slavic.

On the DNA forum Heindale gives very strong arguments for I2a2 Dinaric Clade as Slavic and one can hard to argue differently.

However, one can build theories which can fuse different things, including that belonging to haplogroups I2a2 was originally distinguished from R1a.
 
how yes and no

Although there are sources that I2a2 and R1a are treated separately, we must respect the people who watch them together as Slavic.

On the DNA forum Heindale gives very strong arguments for I2a2 Dinaric Clade as Slavic and one can hard to argue differently.

However, one can build theories which can fuse different things, including that belonging to haplogroups I2a2 was originally distinguished from R1a.

good point, the joint or separate arrival of R1a and I2a2 is still not clear....
what sources do you talk about? I know that some archeologist in Serbia did make map with separate archeological finds of Serbs, of Croats, and of Slavs...but I do not know how reliable data of that guy is...
 
I also think I2a2 has to be a 'Slavic' marker which came to the Balkans around the 7th century. How else can you explain Croat-Herzegovinians having up to 70% I2a2 and speaking Croatian, a slavic language. There is no way such a large majority would accept the language of an oncoming minority of R1a which is only around 12-15% in that region. Especially in a region with a topography such a Herzegovina, a very karst and mountainous area. The spread and acceptance of a new language would almost be impossible, or if did happen some traces of an ancient Illyrian language would have stayed at least in the most isolated villages. Also I2a2 falls very well in the region of old Serbian and Croatian Kingdoms. Its concentration is almost exactly in the location of medieval Principalities of: Travunia, Zachlumia, Pagania, Dalmatia, Raska, Bosnia, and Doclea. Making the Illyrian origin on the marker unlikely.
 

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