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Thread: Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

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    Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)



    First my thoughts and personal opinion on our genetic:

    Italy is a southern european country; therefore as one of those it belongs greatly to the mediterranean world; it's like the opposite of sweden but in the same way it's a refuge for mediterranean phenotypes, and many mediterranean types are found.

    gracile med mostly, some tall ones, and many with a south eastern vibe.

    italy is in the centre of mediterranean europe, therefore it received inputs from many part of southern europe, a great part of it belongs to the east med basin type, expecially in southern italy where in the past were greek colonies, the etruscans in tuscany that came from anatolia and arrived there from the crescent valley (tigri/eufate) i think.
    the arab influence is scarce and restricted to some place of sicily.

    Recent genetic studies confirm all that i've said: Italy is collocated in southern europe and clusters between the iberians (spain/portugal) , and in some studies also with southern France and greece; northern italy is towards the iberian cluster and southern italy towards the greek one.

    maps:

    people near italy: Spain/Portugal, France, Switzerland, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia









    taken from Wikipedia:

    During prehistory, Italy was populated by different but very similar Indo-European groups, later collectively listed amongst the Ancient peoples of Italy, of whom the Italic one was predominant.
    Not all of these various peoples were linguistically or ethnically closely related. Some of them spoke Italic languages, others spoke Greek because of the arrival of Hellenic colonists, while others belonged to another Indo-European branch (Ligurian, Venetic, Lepontic, Messapian) or were non-Indo-European (Etruscan, Raetic).
    The identity of a people, as well as being characterized by notions of culture is also characterized by processes of genetic evolution. Following scientific research carried out by dutch genetists, Italy has proven to be one of the last two remaining genetic islands across Europe (along with Finland), this due to the presence of the chain Alpine mountain that, over the centuries, has prevented large migration flows aimed at colonizing the Italian lands.


    • The modern man appeared during the Upper Palaeolithic. Specimens of Aurignacian age were discovered in the cave of Fumane and dated back about 34,000 years ago. During the Magdalenian period the first men from the Pyrenees populated Sardinia [1].
    • During the Neolithic farming stable is introduced by people from the east and the first villages are built, the weapons become more sophisticated and the first objects in clay produced.
    • In the late Neolithic era the use of copper spreads and villages are built over piles near the lakes. In Sardinia, Sicily and part of “Continental Italy” the Beaker culture, which probably represents the western branch of the Corded Ware culture, also spreads from North-West Europe,[2].
    • During the Late Bronze Age in Italy appears the Urnfield or Villanovan culture characterized by the typical rite of incineration of the bodies originating from Central Europe, the use of iron spreads [3]. In Sardinia the Nuragic civilization flourishes.
    • From the 8th century BC Greek colonists settle on the southern coast and in Sicily and found cities, initiating what was later called Magna Graecia. In the 5th century Celtic tribes from continental Europe settled in Northern Italy. The Etruscan civilization developed on the coast of Tuscany and Latium.
    • With the Fall of the Roman Empire different populations of German origin intruded into Italy, the most significant was that of the Lombards, who will try to unify politically the “Boot of Italy”.


    During the Late Republic and throughout the Imperial period in Italy there was a process of genetic homogenization among the Italian peoples (those other peoples whom inhabited the Italian Peninsula) and the Romans. With the founding of new towns and the colonization of lands in Cisalpine Gaul and southern Italy, there was a significant migration on both the two poles of the Peninsula. The Romans encouraged the migration, as sought to destabilize local governments through forced migration. The Romans, realizing that Rome, meaning the city, could never alone monitor dozens of different peoples, with some initial resistance (which then caused the Social War), decided to extend Roman citizenship to all Italian peoples (with some exceptions) was the first step towards Rome understood not as only a city that dominated the world, but as Italy, which extends its domains throughout Europe. Following the Social War the remaining native population (Celts, Venetics, Oscans, Umbrians, Sicilians, the Greeks, Etruscans, etc. ..), obtained citizenship and mingled with the Roman settlers. Romanization in central Italy had been successful, so much so that many politicians and Roman writers came from that moment from Marche, Abruzzo and Umbria. Greek colonists in southern Italy, which coexisted with Italic peoples, were also immediately Romanized and colonized. In addition Northern Italy was Romanized.[4][5]. The phenomenon of Roman colonization in Italy was held for nearly six centuries and blocks of 6,000 households (30,0000 individuals on assumes) were moved from South to North and vice versa, descendants of Roman settlers living in the north (some times with good amount of gallic genes and Etruscan) were moved to South so flows from North to South lasted for centuries.

    Although Sardinians also do not constitute a homogeneous population, Sardinia has unique genetic composition, when compared to other Italian, European and Mediterranean populations.[22] Migration from the Iberian peninsula, rather than southern France or Liguria, may have resulted in a common Y-chromosome haplogroup I being present.

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    Italians aren't just Meds tall and short but also Alpinid especially in the North, with a few Nordids and partial Nordids.

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    And Dinarids.

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    about the dinarics you are right, they appearence (that of classical dinarics) is similar to mediterraneans or southern european phenotypes, expecially the dinarid forms toghether with mediterranean the eastern med type.

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    Genetically, Southern Italians are substantially more Near-Eastern compared to Northern Italians. N. Italians cluster with iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese). Spaniards and Portuguese also cluster with the French. Southern Italians are close to Greeks, although Northern Greeks cluster more with Balkan population groups.

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    Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?

    [wew, something is getting hot here!]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?

    [wew, something is getting hot here!]
    They are phenotypic descriptions from old physical anthropology texts. These terms are only moderately useful.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 22-12-10 at 18:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?

    [wew, something is getting hot here!]
    It's pseudo-science. People keep saying that north-italy has "nordids" yet in all the autosomal studies the Portuguese and Spaniards always show more nothern european component than North-Italians. This is the clustering situation in Europe :http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg





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    they are old terms, i too think it's better to speak about genetic clusters, that are scientific.

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    in northern italy you see people of "nordic" appearence mostly along the alpine chain.

    Expecially we have two clear nordic place in italy: South Tyrol (which should be with Austria) and the Seven Towns of Asiago in Veneto (where people speak italian and identify themselves with being ethnic italians)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiago
    http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altopiano_dei_Sette_Comuni

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    Oh look, a *****! Let's speak a bit of Italian, ok? Italians all graciles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    in northern italy you see people of "nordic" appearence mostly along the alpine chain.
    Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    ...All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance
    Well in order to have fair eyes you need to get the gene from both parents since fair eyes are caused by recessive genes.

    If the Italian parent doesn't have the gene for lets say blue eyes then even if the French parent has very light eyes the kids will not have blue eyes. So if the kids get to have fair eyes it means both parents carry the gene. This means that the Italian parent also carry the gene for fair eyes if your mixed friends have light eyes.

    Well that was a bit simplified but what I mean is that for recessive genes both sides of the family must have the gene in order for it to appear in the kids' phenotype.

    This is a nice tool that predicts eye color (of course the prediction cant be completely accurate cause as they say in the site the mechanism of eye color inheritance is not 100% known) http://museum.thetech.org/ugenetics/...alculator.html but if you experiment a bit you will see the chances are pretty low to get blue eyed kids with only one family having the gene. So both sides must have it

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance
    I guess you only know a handful of Italians.

    Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 27-01-11 at 05:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    It's pseudo-science. People keep saying that north-italy has "nordids" yet in all the autosomal studies the Portuguese and Spaniards always show more nothern european component than North-Italians. This is the clustering situation in Europe :http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg





    The only region in Italy where you encounter more "Nordid" types is in the Alpine fringe. Many "Nordid" Italians are actually more Alpinid.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 27-01-11 at 22:56.

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    By the way, the pink circles next to France are also spanish..See ES2

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance
    Livi made probably the largest hair and eye pigmentation survey of Italy and only about 31% of them were blue/grey eyed. Italians are not majority blue/grey-eyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance
    Many Italians have recessive light eyes. I have black eyes for exemple (a very dark brown), but 3/4 of my grandparents had blue or emeraud green eyes so surely I have recessive light eyes.
    I have also noticed that when an Italian mixes with a Northern or central European, their sons look more northern than Italian. They are usually light haired and light eyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    I guess you only know a handful of Italians.

    Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The only region in Italy where you encounter more "Nordid" types is in the Alpine fringe. Nordid Italians are actually more Alpinid.
    How ignorant you are about Italians? Why do you still continue to speak about things that you dunno? You surealy are a complexed Portuguese becouse everyone knows that Greeks and Portugueses are the darkest peoples in Europe and every graphic confirms that (with all the respect for these two peoples that I like, but I don't like when they start to ***** about Italy).
    The alpinid element exists also in central and South Italy and nordid Italians belong to the Alpinid-subnordid or subnordid typology, see it at anthropeurope. A mix of baltic, neodanubian and alpinid elements. That's also why I say that Nordid Italians look more germanic than slavic or celtic (like Nordid Spaniards).
    Some exemples of Nordid Italians:





    If I had to put these 3 on a map, I would choose East Germany/Austria and Denmark for the first one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    By the way, the pink circles next to France are also spanish..See ES2
    I don't think these schemes are reliable. According to this:



    French are closer to Italians than to Portugueses, although Italians are closer to Swisses than to French.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    Livi made probably the largest hair and eye pigmentation survey of Italy and only about 31% of them were blue/grey eyed. Italians are not majority blue/grey-eyed.
    On the avarage 31% is good, but light eyes are not distributed in the same proportion in the whole peninsula.

    This scheme is about the number of people with brown hair in Italy From dark brown to light brown/dark blonde) .
    It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair and that Northern Italy has almost the same distribution of light hair than central Italy. To change is the South, where black hair are more on the avarage, and Sardinia, where most people don't have brown hair. These scheme anyway lacks to specify what colour have the other people who don't have brown hair: blonde? Red? Black? It says anyway that most Italians (national avarage 60,1) have brown hair.



    The percentage of light eyes in Italy par region is this:

    Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
    Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
    Lombardia 37,2%
    Liguria 29,6%
    Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
    Umbria 32,8%
    Toscana 31,5%
    Marche 31,3%
    Lazio 26,2%
    Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
    Campania 25,6%
    Puglia 26,4%
    Basilicata 23,1%
    Calabria 19,6%
    Sicilia 23,7%
    Sardegna 13,9%

    I live in a region where more than a person on 4 has light eyes but many more have recessive light eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    Many Italians have recessive light eyes. I have black eyes for exemple (a very dark brown), but 3/4 of my grandparents had blue or emeraud green eyes so surely I have recessive light eyes.
    I have also noticed that when an Italian mixes with a Northern or central European, their sons look more northern than Italian. They are usually light haired and light eyed.





    How ignorant you are about Italians? Why do you still continue to speak about things that you dunno? You surealy are a complexed Portuguese becouse everyone knows that Greeks and Portugueses are the darkest peoples in Europe and every graphic confirms that (with all the respect for these two peoples that I like, but I don't like when they start to ***** about Italy).
    The alpinid element exists also in central and South Italy and nordid Italians belong to the Alpinid-subnordid or subnordid typology, see it at anthropeurope. A mix of baltic, neodanubian and alpinid elements. That's also why I say that Nordid Italians look more germanic than slavic or celtic (like Nordid Spaniards).
    Some exemples of Nordid Italians:





    If I had to put these 3 on a map, I would choose East Germany/Austria and Denmark for the first one.



    I don't think these schemes are reliable. According to this:



    French are closer to Italians than to Portugueses, although Italians are closer to Swisses than to French.



    On the avarage 31% is good, but light eyes are not distributed in the same proportion in the whole peninsula.

    This scheme is about the number of people with brown hair in Italy From dark brown to light brown/dark blonde) .
    It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair and that Northern Italy has almost the same distribution of light hair than central Italy. To change is the South, where black hair are more on the avarage, and Sardinia, where most people don't have brown hair. These scheme anyway lacks to specify what colour have the other people who don't have brown hair: blonde? Red? Black? It says anyway that most Italians (national avarage 60,1) have brown hair.



    The percentage of light eyes in Italy par region is this:

    Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
    Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
    Lombardia 37,2%
    Liguria 29,6%
    Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
    Umbria 32,8%
    Toscana 31,5%
    Marche 31,3%
    Lazio 26,2%
    Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
    Campania 25,6%
    Puglia 26,4%
    Basilicata 23,1%
    Calabria 19,6%
    Sicilia 23,7%
    Sardegna 13,9%

    I live in a region where more than a person on 4 has light eyes but many more have recessive light eyes.

    Who is ******** about Italians? I'm certainly not complexed. Maybe you are the one who is complexed. All I'm doing is pointing out phenotypic exaggerations about various ethnic groups, including Italians. Autosomal genetic studies show clearly how Iberians, Italians and others cluster. You are hardly proving these studies wrong with your distorted, misleading posts. Grow up.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 29-01-11 at 18:07.

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    Who cares about blue eyes and nordids ?? Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Italians genetics ?

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    Polako and Dienekes plots :






















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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Who cares about blue eyes and nordids ?? Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Italians genetics ?
    Yes, and? Italians, Portugueses, Spaniards and French cluster together, indeed they are all South-West Europeans so I am not surprised by this result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Who is ******** about Italians? I'm certainly not complexed. .
    )
    Well, it's a topic about Italian genetic soo let's talk about Italian people.
    I can tell you that among the numerous people of Italian background (there are plenty in France) I know, many have grey-blue eyes.

    Also, I have lived many Years In Alsace and Doubs region. I know quite well the North Eastern France phenotypes (also including Lorraine, Burgundy...) and many Northern Italian people match those phenotypes. I suppose R1b U152 has something to do with it. It is recorded by Latin author that Northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul) suffered massive invasion from Northern Transalpine Gaul so it's not surprising at all to find some similarities between Alsatian and Northern Italian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic! Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair
    I don't think any European has real black hair. Very dark brown yes but not black. The only true black haired Greeks I've seen are girls who listen to gothic rock, but the color is fake of course. I didn't see any black haired Italian when I visited Italy either...

    Off topic: I noticed in Wilhelm's links that Greeks do not cluster with Turks so this should make people who still support the stupid idea that Greeks and Turks mixed a lot during the Ottoman empire rethink about it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic! Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).



    I don't think any European has real black hair. Very dark brown yes but not black. The only true black haired Greeks I've seen are girls who listen to gothic rock, but the color is fake of course. I didn't see any black haired Italian when I visited Italy either...

    Of topic: I noticed in Wilhelm's links that Greeks do not cluster with Turks so this should make people who still support the stupid idea that Greeks and Turks mixed a lot during the Ottoman empire rethink about it...
    She looks like you??
    Uhm... I know a few good cafés around here... uhm, I mean just if you should ever come around in this area... we can like exchange phone numbers if you want to...

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