Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

Infact i spoke about a mix, sure is that Italy is not predominantly coarse med or eastern med.

It isn't predominantly "Alpine" either.

As for the alpines darker than meds i have my doubts and it is not corroborated by any study for what i know.

"Mediterranean", contrary to popular beliefs, is not a "complexion" but a skeletal/cranial type, it has nothing to do with pigmentation. "Mediterraneans" vary widely in hair, eye and skin pigmentation, just like "Alpines" do:

"As a rule his (i.e. the Mediterranean's) skin is some shade of white, from pink or peaches-and-cream to a light brown...

The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not require some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age. Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult." (Carleton Coon, "Caravan: the story of the Middle East", page 155.)

You can also take a look at skin pigmentation studies. The more strongly "Alpine" northern Italy is not "lighter" than the more strongly "Mediterranean" Spain.

I don't get this to be real, it seems a spite to me.
Dark phenotypes are everywhere in Europe. Not only in Italy.
Spain has its fair amount too.
This does not change the fact that there are tangible clinal differences in Italy.

Yes, but what the author of those pages points out is the hypocrisy and exaggerations of the more radical among the northern Italian separatists, who want to portray northern Italy as if it was Germany while southern Italy as if it was the Middle East.

i was talking about that map with North Italy and Central Italy showing French, Spaniards, Tuscans and North Italians. It's obvious that if you put Tuscans and North Italians togheter they are closer.

Which map were you referring to? The one I showed you separated Northern Italy from Southern Italy and it still did not cluster closer or overlap more with France and Switzerland than Spain did (which was not separated into geographical areas.)

Anyway:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/Europegenetics.jpg
I can't see all the closeness you claim to Swiss people.

Even that map shows that as a whole Spain clusters closer to France than Italy does (the majority of Italy is shown further south.)

This one also shows the same:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/s...l=1&adxnnlx=1302636516-o37JDYXCB40K6Hv5bA2uTg

Spain (this time divided into 2 regions) again clustered closer to and overlapped with France and even Switzerland, while Italy (divided into two as well) did not overlap with either.
 
The fact that various anthropoligists were for so long time so intensely debating about the exact separation of those alleged sub-races (what a good biologist actually should do IMO), as well as that a horde of unbalanced college students is unable to find a consent on classifying individuals from day to day again (e.g. anthroscape: 'Guess me', 'Guess my granny', 'Guess my dog' etc...), is both proof enough that there is not much scientific about it.

It may be of some use in a style or fashion consultation at a beauty saloon, but that's it! Oh and yeah, I DO have the feeling that people who are obsessed with these sub-races have a problem with themselves, trying to find an identity their life couldn't provide them yet, clearly separating between 'us' and 'them'.
 
Today, biological anthropologists have little use for 19th and 20th century phenotype classifications. No serious academic sees such as more than "ancient pseudo-scientific curiosities".
 
Totally agree with both Grey Moss and Mzungu. Perhaps we should concentrate on the topic by using Mtdna, Ydna, and autosomal studies. There are certainly remaining questions about Italian genetics and the population movements that created it where additional input would be helpful to me at least, but using poorly understood and badly differentiated out of date tools just leads to more confusion.

And just for the record, to all these debates about hair color, eye color, skin color, etc., in Italy and out, I have a question; WHO CARES AND WHY? I certainly don't. I think the usefulness of this kind of data to tease out population movement is limited at best. Is there an underlying agenda involved? I certainly hope not.

BTW Drac, this is not to say that I don't think you made some good points. Like it or lump it, there is some sort of genetic barrier at the Alps. According to Lao et al anyway, it is one of the major ones in Europe (along with one that separates out the Finns). Within Italy there is a gradual cline, with a slighly steeper gradient around Rome, again according to Lao et al.(If I remember correctly there is a similar one between northern and southern Germany.) This is certainly not a genetic break. While there is definitely a lot of heterogeneity in Italy, there is still an "Italian signature". That's what I am interested in exploring, and I have "no dog in the hunt". I'm proud of all my ancestors.
 
Autosomal studies are most important because they measure full heredity. Haplogroups are only useful in understanding ancient migration contributions. There are many Euros with haplogroups extensively found in Asian, African and Indian sub-continent regions who look perfectly Western European.
 
responding to the interesting questions of Angela:

Yes, there are some characteristic phenotypes typcal of italy, that you almost not find in other part of europe.

For example Campanian phenotypes:

facial features like this (don't watch pigmentation)
FOTO%20NINO1.jpg

gigi-d-alessio.jpg

tosca-d-aquino.jpg

TIZIANO_FERRO.4.tif.big.jpg

ranieri%20grande.jpg


this faces are very typical of south-centre (Campania, southern Lazio..), and you don't find them in other part of italy or europe

every time i see a face similar to those 99% he/she 's from the area of Campania.
 
what is the classification of light eyes?

I am from the veneto, I have green eyes, my partner also from the veneto ( bordering friuli) has blue eyes, my father has green , yet my mother and sister has hazel eyes. My partners parents and brothers have grey or blue eyes.
I have tracked my family line to be 14 generations ( so far) in the Veneto . What does all this eye colour indicate. I cannot see any significance to eye colour and genetics when you speak of middle europe.

Maybe dark brown is the only colour which must be classified as dark eyes!
 
what is the classification of light eyes?

I am from the veneto, I have green eyes, my partner also from the veneto ( bordering friuli) has blue eyes, my father has green , yet my mother and sister has hazel eyes. My partners parents and brothers have grey or blue eyes.
I have tracked my family line to be 14 generations ( so far) in the Veneto . What does all this eye colour indicate. I cannot see any significance to eye colour and genetics when you speak of middle europe.

Maybe dark brown is the only colour which must be classified as dark eyes!

people in veneto may descend from italic tribes mixed with celtic tribes (Carni).
So you may be similar more to central and north-western europeans.
North-east italy is the most light eyed part of italy.

Here are useful sites about surnames origins in italy:
http://www.gens.labo.net/
http://www.cognomiitaliani.org/cognomi/index.html
http://italia.indettaglio.it/ita/cognomi/cognomi.html
 
I see You in Italy have too much difficult DNK. AS ethnic group ,You have all similar characteristics, but geneticlly you are different. In area Italy , during the history, was many migrations, and as a result we have this
 
chiatti-300x225.jpg


Two typical instances of Italian blondes and blue eyed! Daniele De Rossi and Laura Chiatti! (y)
 
If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals, that's why Northern Italians are on avarage lighter than Southern Italians. It has nothing to do with the germanic invasions (they altered less than 4% the Italian genetics and they occurred also or mostly in Southern Italy), rather the cause is this:

asolarirrad.gif

In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French. Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.
 
If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals, that's why Northern Italians are on avarage lighter than Southern Italians. It has nothing to do with the germanic invasions (they altered less than 4% the Italian genetics and they occurred also or mostly in Southern Italy), rather the cause is this:

View attachment 4815

In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French. Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.


That's not what actual pigmentation surveys of these countries show. The most common skin phototypes in both Italy and Spain are III and II. Northern Spaniards were found lighter pigmented than Belgians and southeast English, and similar to Irish and Welsh, in Jablonski & Chaplin's skin pigmentation study ("The evolution of human skin coloration"), so I doubt that northern Italians are somehow going to be lighter.

Plus what matters for skin pigmentation is the UV index:

uviec2002100131_lr.gif
 
I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe. About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).
The warmest place of Europe does is Andalusia in August, following Crete and Cyprus (Greece).

Anyway according to Jablonki and Chaplin, this is the human skintone.

UV and skin color.jpg

It confirms what I said, so I really don't get your point.
Spaniards still are white and Europeans. None is doubting of this.
 
I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe.

You can "doubt" all you want, but pigmentation observations, surveys and studies have been carried out starting since at least the second half of the 19th century up until recent times, and none of them says the absurd things you claim. No anthropologist has ever declared Spaniards "the darkest of Europe", but at least one of them (Deniker) declared southern Italians to be so:

"The Swedes are the blondest, and the south Italians the darkest people." ["Mixed races of Europe", cited in The Literary Digest, Volume 30 (May 20, 1905), page 746.]


About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).

Apparently you need some eyeglasses, as all of Italy is included in the same "light blue" zone as Iberia, southern France and the whole Balkans.

It is true that the UV index varies through the year, in fact it varies from day to day. I can in fact show days when it's higher in Italy than in Iberia. But it normally is at a similar level for that given area of Europe. Here is how it is today:



uvief0_w.gif


More of the same. Italy is included in the same "green" zone as Iberia, southern France and the whole Balkans.

Let's see August, 2008:


uvief20080818_w.gif

Little has changed, except that this time even much of central Europe is in the "green" zone, alongside all of southern Europe.



Anyway according to Jablonki and Chaplin, this is the human skintone.

View attachment 4831

It confirms what I said, so I really don't get your point.

That map is not about observed skin tones either (the study where that map was published does point out that the observed skin tones do not necessarily match the "predicted" ones from such considerations as UV radiation), and once again Italy is included in "zone 2", as Iberia, the Balkans and a lot of central Europe.
 
If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals,
That's not true. Pigmentation of skin is based on many different factors, not just solar radiation.

In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French.
I would say southern spaniards are like north-italians and northern spaniards are like french and western-europeans.

Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.
Based on what ? What stereotype ?

I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe.
spaniards the darkest of Europe ? Who says that ? Because a scientific study from the Academy of Sciences of California about skin pigmentation shows that spaniards's skin tone is comparable to that of western-Europeans. I would say the darkest of Europe are Greeks and then Italians.

About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).
The warmest place of Europe does is Andalusia in August, following Crete and Cyprus (Greece).
Skin tones depends on many different factors, not just one (solar radiation).
 
Italy is famous as one nation of Big Nosed People, there are many convex noses on the population.
This is a feature you find in certain parts of the balkans too, south of Croata mostly (I've seen it myself), in countries like Albania, Greece, Montenegro and also in more inside areas of the balkans.
Italians can easily pass as locals there.

Zambrotta
NEWS_1231528204_zambrotta.jpg


Margherita Zanatta
margherita-zanatta.jpg


these people could easily be Greeks, Albanians, Croatians, Bosnians, Romenians (many of them show hooked noses) etc...

This shows maybe a common origins, of italians with the ancient people of the balkans, Pelasgians, Neolithic, Italic, Greek connections??

i don't know if illyrians and thracians can be put in the hooked nose group

I also want some opinions of balkanians forum members.
 
According to Livi over 65 per cent of Italian noses were STRAIGHT, only 14.6 pc were convex/aquiline and 18.7 pc were upturned (arricciato)/or flat (schiacciato).

For Nasal Index (NI), according to Dr Mori, quoted by Livi, all regions in Italy had a relatively high figure, usually between 67 and 70, falling to 65.4 in Liguria (but from a very small sample of 40).
The Romagna has the narrowest noses with a NI of 61 for the province of Forli' and the narrow-nosed tendency has modified the Po Plain while mountain areas in the Alps and Apennines tend to have a higher NI (broader nose).
Biasutti also mentioned that Liguria was also relatively narrower-nosed with influences over all of western Tuscany.
 

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