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Thread: Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France

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    Thumbs up Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France



    Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France
    http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/P...2497310001602/
    A text on a pyrographically decorated gourd dated to 1793 explains that it contains a handkerchief dipped with the blood of Louis XVI, king of France, after his execution. Biochemical analyses confirmed that the material contained within the gourd was blood. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) hypervariable region 1 (HVR1) and 2 (HVR2), the Y-chromosome STR profile, some autosomal STR markers and a SNP in HERC2 gene associated to blue eyes, were retrieved, and some results independently replicated in two different laboratories. The uncommon mtDNA sequence retrieved can be attributed to a N1b haplotype, while the novel Y-chromosome haplotype belongs to haplogroup G2a. The HERC2 gene showed that the subject analyzed was a heterozygote, which is compatible with a blue-eyed person, as king Louis XVI was. To confirm the identity of the subject, an analysis of the dried heart of his son, Louis XVII, could be undertaken.
    I wasn't sure where to post this, but I guessed that the best place might be here in general genetics instead of History. If Maciamo of one of the other Administrators feels it should be someplace else please move it.
    Thanks,
    Aristander

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    Thanks Aristander, that's very interesting ! So the Bourbon dynasty would have been G2a3, and indeed all the Kings of France, as the Bourbon ultimately descend in direct paternal line from Robert the Strong and Hugh Capet.

    As for the N1b mitochonrial line, Louis XVI's matrilineal ancestors were :

    -Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony
    --Maria Josepha of Austria, Queen consort of Poland
    ---Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Holy Roman Empress
    ----Princess Benedicta Henrietta of the Palatinate
    -----Anne Gonzaga, Countess Palatine of Simmern
    ------Catherine de Lorraine, Duchess of Mantua and Montferrat
    -------Henriette of Savoy, Marquise de Villars
    --------Jeanne Françoise de Foix, Vicomtesse de Castillon
    ---------Françoise de Prez de Monpezat

    So ultimately (in the 15th century, as I couldn't go farther) it seems that this N1a lineage was of southern French origin.

    All the matrilineal descendants of these women shared the same mtDNA as Louis XVI.

    One of Maria Josepha of Austria's grandchild via one of her daughter is King Charles IV of Spain. Among her great-grand-children carrying her mtDNA, we find Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor and Ferdinand III, Grand Duke of Tuscany.

    Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Lüneburg's grandhchildren include King Frederick Augustus I of Saxony and King Anthony of Saxony.


    I noticed that many of the N1b women in this lineage died childless. Perhaps N1b has an negative influence on female fertility, which would explain why the lineage is fairly rare.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 16-10-10 at 14:17.

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    If these results become a valid, does it means that we can presume that Bourbons, Capetians and Robertians are of Alanic origin.

    From Eupedia

    "Alanic G2a1
    The only ethnic group that has a majority of haplogroup G nowadays are the Ossetians in the Caucasus, in the modern Russian Republic of North Ossetia-Alania. They are thought to descend directly from the Alans, a Central Asian tribe related to the ancient Samartians. The medieval Kingdom of Alania was located in the northern Caucasus, in present-day Georgia and Ossetia.


    G2a has been observed at a slightly higher frequencies in Picardy and Flanders than in surrounding regions. It has been hypothetised that G2a was brought to northern France and Belgium by the Alans, who traversed all continental Europe during the barbarian invasions in the 5th century and founded a short-lived kingdom in northern France.

    Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."

    Dukes of Hesbaye were the earliest known predecessors of Bourbon dinasty (Robertians and Capetians). Was it possible that some of Alanic landlords in the region become founder of dinasty?

    Migration of Alans to Europe in Middle Ages.


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    As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636) It would interesting to know what the Y DNA of King Juan Carlos is and see if the lines match.
    If the line is of Alanic origin it would just verify how mobile and fertile our forebearers were in their migrations around the Earth. To think that the descendants of a tribe of Eastern Iranian barbarians forced into Europe by the Huns, would end up as royalty in Europe! Amazing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636)
    Haspengau is only a Dutch form for Hasbaye. It is the historical region in southeastern part of Flanders, where Bourbons (Capetians and Robertians) came from and according to Eupedia is one of peak places of G2a group in Europe. If it is true that the Bourbons are indeed G2a then it couldn't be just coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Haspengau is only a Dutch form for Hasbaye. It is the historical region in southeastern part of Flanders, where Bourbons (Capetians and Robertians) came from and according to Eupedia is one of peak places of G2a group in Europe. If it is true that the Bourbons are indeed G2a then it couldn't be just coincidence.
    Yes correct anyway in Flanders ( The Frankish Homeland) this not the "Alanic" G2a1 who is found but the G2a3b1 who is NOT a neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 but a 4500 years old and a true Indo European haplogroup ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636) It would interesting to know what the Y DNA of King Juan Carlos is and see if the lines match.
    If the line is of Alanic origin it would just verify how mobile and fertile our forebearers were in their migrations around the Earth. To think that the descendants of a tribe of Eastern Iranian barbarians forced into Europe by the Huns, would end up as royalty in Europe! Amazing!
    Juan Carlos is a suspicious " Bourbon" a "Bourbon" who was made for circumstances ... He is probably not from the same blood line

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    G2a as a whole is NOT "Alanic" - how about testing living Bourbons?

    This is a very long-standing myth because a high percentage of Ossetians are G2a1a-P18. In fact these do not match other places where Alans lived, and G2a1a is apparently absent from the "Ossetic" Jasz region of Hungary. 19th century travelers in the Caucasus in fact reported that it was well-known that the Ossetian nobility of Digora were not in fact of Ossetian origin, but what they described as "Tatar".
    High percentages of G2a are also found among the various Northwest Caucasian peoples, but these are almost all in on single clade of G2a3b1a1-U1.
    For some reason everyone seems to have ignored the very high percentages of G2a among the "Central Israel Palestinians" in HGDP, 10/17. I would say that this in fact is quite unrepresentative of the general Palestinian population. There are certain Palestinian clans that are prominent in "Central Israel" but are not found elsewhere.
    It does turn out as was pointed out above that there are a "substantial" number of G2a's in the Lower Rhine region where the Robertians / Capetians were said to have originated. However, almost zero of these belong to any of the Caucasian G2a-P15 clades. (In fact, no one at all in the region matches the Caucasian clusters.)
    The important thing here is to test living Bourbons today to make sure that they in fact match.
    As I've mentioned previously, aside from the Oldenbergs, Rurikids, and Gedeminids, why hasn't anyone tested the other important European noble families like the Hapsburgs, Welfs, etc.? What about the Napoleon lineage?

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    Most of the G2a in Europe is of Neolithic or Bronze-age origin. It's pointless arguing about the origin of the Bourbon line here as we do not know the subclade of G2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Most of the G2a in Europe is of Neolithic or Bronze-age origin. It's pointless arguing about the origin of the Bourbon line here as we do not know the subclade of G2a.
    I have wondered, given it's peculiar distribution pattern, if Haplogroup G arrived in Europe alongside of R1b.

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    From eupedia:

    "Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."

    Is there any proof of presence of G2a1 along the Alanic migration route?
    I took this claim from eupedia as truth, and that's why I thought that there is much more Alanic G2a1 haplotypes in Europe, specifically in Belgium. But when I saw some projects on FTDNA, it is obvious that most of haplogroup G in Belgium is G2a3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    From eupedia:
    "Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."
    Is there any proof of presence of G2a1 along the Alanic migration route?
    I took this claim from eupedia as truth, and that's why I thought that there is much more Alanic G2a1 haplotypes in Europe, specifically in Belgium. But when I saw some projects on FTDNA, it is obvious that most of haplogroup G in Belgium is G2a3.
    Most of the hg G in Belgium, France and the rest of Western Europe is indeed G2a3. The Alans were few in number and probably have had a minimal impact on the Y-DNA lineages in Western Europe. Nevertheless there are a few Western European G2a1 out there, and it's hard to find another reasonable explanation for their presence than a small band of invaders from the Caucasus region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Most of the hg G in Belgium, France and the rest of Western Europe is indeed G2a3. The Alans were few in number and probably have had a minimal impact on the Y-DNA lineages in Western Europe. Nevertheless there are a few Western European G2a1 out there, and it's hard to find another reasonable explanation for their presence than a small band of invaders from the Caucasus region.
    Sorry dear sir but not G2a3 but G2a3b1a . If we could believe this story of the gourd Luis XVI is definitely G2a3b1a . Just my little opinion : it seems that G2a3b1a was an elite among the Franks ...

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    In the Northwest of the Caucasus Mountains there is The Adyghe tribe and it is one of the tribes that live in the Caucasus mountains .
    and in the Mountains bordering italy/Austria i noticed that there is a region named "Region Trentino Alto Adige" .

    could the two regions ( in the Caucasus and Austria/ italy area have some connection in their origins , the two areas:

    [ NORTH OF ITALY AND SOUTH OF AUSTRIA]
    Region Trentino Alto Adige

    Adyghea Republic northwest of the Caucasus
    I noticed that Austria ,the Caucasus mountains have a Y-dna Haplogroup G .

    Thanks
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    Last edited by MPA; 17-10-10 at 17:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA View Post
    In the Northwest of the Caucasus Mountains there is The Adyghe tribe and it is one of the tribes that live in the Caucasus mountains .
    and in the Mountains bordering italy/Austria i noticed that there is a region named "Region Trentino Alto Adige" .

    could the two regions ( in the Caucasus and Austria/ italy area have some connection in their origins , the two areas:

    [ NORTH OF ITALY AND SOUTH OF AUSTRIA]
    Region Trentino Alto Adige

    Adyghea Republic northwest of the Caucasus
    I noticed that Austria ,the Caucasus mountains have a Y-dna Haplogroup G .

    Thans
    Len
    I can assure you that Adygea and Trentino-Alto Adige are utterly unrelated in name. "Alto-Adige" in Italian means something like "Upper Adige (river)", which is also called the "Etsch" river in German. Prior to World War One, the territory was part of Austria and called South Tyrol (which the German-speaking minority in the area still calls it, actually). The fact that "Adygea" and "Alto-Adige" sound similar, and in both areas, Haplogroup G is common, is just a coincidence.
    Last edited by Taranis; 15-10-10 at 21:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I can assure you that Adygea and Trentino-Alto Adige are utterly unrelated in name.
    This is what is so fascinating, and often, so frustrating when history, tradition, linguistics and now DNA are combined. What seems such a perfect interpretation, is so often, just a coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Sorry dear sir but not G2a3 but G2a3b1a . If we could believe this story of the gourd Luis XVI is definitely G2a3b1a . Just my little opinion : it seems that G2a3b1a was an elite among the Franks ...
    Yes, more specifically most Europeans G2a3 are G2a3b1a, and Louis XVI's presumed STR markers also appears to be G2a3b1a.

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    Ted Kandell Wrote On rootswweb:
    Ted Kandell/
    Subject :[Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-G] The spread of G2a3-L30 into Europe andelsewhere
    Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009
    "An even higher percentage of certain Adyghe (often called Circassians) are in an entirely different clade of G2a3b1-P393, particularly the Shapsug tribe, which in one study seem to be 81% G2a3b1. Again, these men share an common ancestor in the Middle Ages. I would think that these Shapsugs represent a single lineage, one of the several distinct social classes found among the Adyghe tribes."

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    Well, the Adyghe speak a Turkic language, and clearly, that means it's obviously unlikely to have been spoken there before approximateky the 10th century. How this relates with Haplogroup G, I'm not sure, but it would seem plausible that it's some kind of founding effect.

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    The Adyghe language do not belong to the Turkish language and according to wikipedia :
    Adyghe language Belong to the Northwest Caucasian languages, also called Abkhazo-Adyghean, or sometimes Pontic .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA View Post
    The Adyghe language do not belong to the Turkish language and according to wikipedia :
    Adyghe language Belong to the Northwest Caucasian languages, also called Abkhazo-Adyghean, or sometimes Pontic .
    Damn, my mistake. Sorry, yeah. I must have mistaken the Adyghe for another ethnic group in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Damn, my mistake. Sorry, yeah. I must have mistaken the Adyghe for another ethnic group in the area.
    Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup

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    G2a3b1 belongs exclusively to the upper caste in India

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup
    Err, I was talking exclusively about the classification of the Adyghe language.

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    OK sorry so the subject is well Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France ? Adyghe language is not a Turkish language of course thats right ! excuse me ...
    About the King Luis XVI he belongs to G2a3b1 (Germanic Indo European haplogroup)
    Last edited by willy; 18-10-10 at 03:32.

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