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Thread: G2a origins: what to believe?

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    G2a origins: what to believe?



    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.
    i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??

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    Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?
    Yes the Franks is a good example as you know Luis XVI the last King of France was probably G2a3b1 so his lineage comes from Netherlands the Frankish homeland . Also some G2a3b1 were found in a Frank burial in Bavaria

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    Hi G2a Netherlands,

    Since you have done your y-dna test with FTDNA. You can go into your personal account and you will see what subclade of G2a you belong too.

    Then Google: haplogroup G phylogentic tree, and then go to ISOGG tree. Your subclade will appear in "descending order". This will give you an approximate timeline to when your subclade "split" from the previous subclade.

    Our G haplogroup "split/seperated" from HG F about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago according to most geneticists. The descending order from oldest to youngest is,. G Oldest, , G1, G1* , and then it moves furtherdown (younger) to G2a etc. .For instance according to my father's subclade G2a31b1a we "split" from G2a3b1a1 about 2,500 years ago.

    If your own subclade is above my number your ancestors lived "somewhere" more than 2,500-3000 years ago. If your subclade is "downstream" then you have to research your subclade to see when they split from the previous subclade for deep ancestral origins.

    Melusine

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    Correction to my paternal y-dna.

    Our subclade is G2a3b1a1A we split from G2a2b1a1.

    Melusine

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    I cannot believe that the Dutch haplogroup G came from the Allans.
    Never the Allans arrived in the Netherlands.

    Haplogroup G is rather frequent on the ancient island of Urk. The inhabitants
    are fishermen who interbred with each others during many centuries.
    They are strictly calvistic and closed. Real Germanics! Dark eyes and dark
    hair are very rare, but 50% of the population have dair hair with blue
    eyes. I suppose real Aurignac/Bruenn survivors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.
    It all depends what subclade of G2a you are talking about. You can be pretty sure that over 95% of G2a in Europe arrived during the Neolithic or early Bronze Age.


    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.
    Having a degree from Harvard doesn't matter much in the budding field of population genetics. There is hardly any past knowledge to acquire. All opinions are built on the progressive flow of recent data, once analytical abilities and knowledge of (pre)history. 10 years ago virtually nothing was known about haplogroups. No later than 3 years ago, the "scientific establishment" were still convinced that R1b lineages descended from the Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnon), who repopulated Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the last Ice Age. This also included Spencer Wells.

    I was one of the first to realise that R1b could not have originated in Western Europe, but more probably in central Asia, while R1b1b could have spread from the Caucasus and Black Sea region. Indeed, R1b1b2 probably only arrived in Western Europe during the early Bronze Age, with the Indo-European migrations. There are still many people out there who believe that R1b1b2 represents the Neolithic expansion from the Near East, which I think is absurd considering the low percentage of R1b in the Levant and in the Balkans (the two hotspots of Neolithic expansion).

    It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b1 subclade, which surely isn't that old.

    If G2a3 entered Europe during the Neolithic, it would have been through the southern route, from Anatolia to Greece, Italy, France and Iberia. So much is obvious from the geographic distribution. The problem is the timing. Agriculture (see map) reached Italy some 8000 years ago, and Britain about 6000 years ago. Recent STR calculations estimate G2a3 to be approximately 6000 years old and G2a3b1 about 5000 years old. Age estimation based on STR's is far from an exact science. It could be completely mistaken. But if it is more or less correct, then G2a3 could only have arrived with the Indo-European migration in the early Bronze Age. There is, generally speaking, a geographic correlation between G2a3 and R1b-P312/S116, especially the Gallo-Italic subclade R1b-U152/S28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??
    Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.



    It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b subclade, which surely isn't that old.
    Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

    Is this not possible then:
    G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

    Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.

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    join ftdna project G
    Last edited by willy; 24-10-10 at 00:14.

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    To all G-men and their "official contact person".

    Google: ftdna haplogroup y-dna haplogroup G project.

    This is the best forum for haplgroup G's , there are about 2,000 members (all subclades ) world wide.

    Contact the administrator as to how to "join". Your results MUST be posted in a Public website such as y-search to join this G group. If you have tested with a company other than FTDNA the group administrator will advise you how to post your G results in order to join.

    IF you do not belong to hg G, you are not allowed to join.

    You will learn the very latest news and information about hg G and it's subclades . The group is "sanctioned by FTDNA".

    Melusine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.



    It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.
    I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

    Is this not possible then:
    G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

    Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.
    Very, very unlikely that G2a entered Europe during the Paleolithic. The highest density of G2a in the world is found in the Caucasus. The Caucasus and Anatolia also have the greatest genetic diversity of G2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?
    Haplogroup G is also common in Iran and Afganistan and found at least as far as the Indian subcontinent. However the eastern variety is typically G1 (G2a is sometimes found, but at very low frequencies).

    In the Levant, the most common form of G is G2c (found mostly in people of Jewish descent).

    G2b also exists, but AFAIK is restricted to a few lineages in Turkey.

    Because G1 peaks in Iran, G2a1 in the Caucasus, G2b in Anatolia and G2c in the Levant, it is hard to believe that G2a3 could have originated anywhere else but in this region, probably in Anatolia.

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    But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
    fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
    are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
    fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
    are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.
    We speak about G2a3b1 who is 4500 years old it means INDO EUROPEAN migration (iGENEA) not neolithic or paleolithic as R1b1b2 atlantic modal who is a real native of West Europe . G2a3b1 in the West is classified in a Germanic component by iGENEA probably from some Germanic tribes of central Europe who came to the North as the Franks .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    We speak about G2a3b1 who is 4500 years old it means INDO EUROPEAN migration (iGENEA) not neolithic or paleolithic as R1b1b2 atlantic modal who is a real native of West Europe . G2a3b1 in the West is classified in a Germanic component by iGENEA probably from some Germanic tribes of central Europe who came to the North as the Franks .
    Why ? G2a3b1 could well have evolved from the G2a3 that settled in Europe during the Neolithic. 4500 years old doesn't mean that it came to Europe 4500 years ago, merely that G2a3b1 people share a common ancestor who lived 4500 years ago. What makes you think that this ancestor didn't already live in Europe ? Most G2a3b1 are European.

    So far there is only a handful of G2a3b1 found in India, and none in Central Asia or Xinjiang to my knowledge (contrarily to R1b1b2, which is everywhere where the Indo-Europeans settled). These Indian G2a3b1 could well be the descendants of Greeks, Romans or other European traders, soldiers or adventurers.

    So far, according to FTDNA's haplogroup G project, 99% of G2a3b1 are European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why ? G2a3b1 could well have evolved from the G2a3 that settled in Europe during the Neolithic. 4500 years old doesn't mean that it came to Europe 4500 years ago, merely that G2a3b1 people share a common ancestor who lived 4500 years ago. What makes you think that this ancestor didn't already live in Europe ? Most G2a3b1 are European.

    So far there is only a handful of G2a3b1 found in India, and none in Central Asia or Xinjiang to my knowledge (contrarily to R1b1b2, which is everywhere where the Indo-Europeans settled). These Indian G2a3b1 could well be the descendants of Greeks, Romans or other European traders, soldiers or adventurers.

    So far, according to FTDNA's haplogroup G project, 99% of G2a3b1 are European.
    The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 population in Europe as R1b1b2 Atlantic modal ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for a very large demographic expansion of the Europeans (mostly R1b1b2) so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age could explain it .


    Last edited by willy; 26-10-10 at 17:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 group in Europe as R1b1b2 ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for the demographic expansion of the Europeans so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age .




    If your remember my thread about metal-mining and stockbreeding back in February, I was the one who put forth the idea that G2a3b1 could have been spread by the Indo-Europeans, along with R1b1b2.

    To answer your question, I think that G2a3b1 was always a minority within the Indo-European speakers, which is why it remained this way. I think that the original Indo-European speakers were either R1b1b or R1a1a, or both, while G2a represented speakers of neighbouring Caucasian languages.

    The way I imagine it is that some G2a3 left the Caucasus and Anatolia and spread agriculture and stockbreeding to southern Europe. On their way they merged with R1b1b peoples from northern Anatolia or from the north of the Caucasus, who then moved north to the Pontic steppes with cattle, sheep and some knowledge of agriculture. There they created a new patriarchal nomadic culture, that was taken over by their forest-steppe neighbours, the R1a1a people. Due to their nomadic nature, one common language spread all over the Eurasian steppe, Proto-Indo-European.

    The south-western group, living on the shores of the Black Sea, was composed mostly of R1b1b2 people with a G2a3 and R1a1a minority (absorbed neighbours). This group was the fore-runner of the Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European languages. After acquiring horses from their R1a1a neighbours from the Volga-Ural region, they progressively left the Dnieper-Don region and moved towards the Danube valley. There they encountered fierce resistance from the well-established farming communities descending from the Linear Pottery Culture. So they pushed forward in search of less densely populated land. They found it in western and northern Europe, where agriculture was more rudimentary, populations less dense, and societies less technologically advanced. This is how R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1 jumped from the Black Sea region to Western Europe.

    The people that already lived in Western Europe belonged to haplogroups I1, I2a, I2b, the descendants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but also E1b1b, T and J2 people who came during the Neolithic through the Danube basin and island-hopping their way around the Mediterranean. I think that it is possible that these E1b1b, T and J2 people also included some G2a people in their southern route (possibly from a later, independent migration). That's why I am open to the possibility of two different sources for G2a in Europe; one Neolithic and one Indo-European.

    I noticed that there were a few G2a3b1 in European Russia, in addition to India. The nomadic Indo-European steppe culture being so mobile by nature, it would make sense that some people from the south-western group (R1b1b2 + G2a3b1) ended up in the north-eastern one (R1a1a), before this latter conquered Central and South Asia. This would explain why R1b1b2 and G2a3b1 are small minorities in Russia, and even more in Central and South Asia. Likewise, R1a1a people would have joined the south-western group, explaining why there is a small percentage of R1a1a in all predominantly R1b1b2a1 regions in Western Europe.

    It is because of this close connections between these three Indo-European haplogroups that I listed them side by side in my table of Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If your remember my thread about metal-mining and stockbreeding back in February, I was the one who put forth the idea that G2a3b1 could have been spread by the Indo-Europeans, along with R1b1b2.

    To answer your question, I think that G2a3b1 was always a minority within the Indo-European speakers, which is why it remained this way. I think that the original Indo-European speakers were either R1b1b or R1a1a, or both, while G2a represented speakers of neighbouring Caucasian languages.

    The way I imagine it is that some G2a3 left the Caucasus and Anatolia and spread agriculture and stockbreeding to southern Europe. On their way they merged with R1b1b peoples from northern Anatolia or from the north of the Caucasus, who then moved north to the Pontic steppes with cattle, sheep and some knowledge of agriculture. There they created a new patriarchal nomadic culture, that was taken over by their forest-steppe neighbours, the R1a1a people. Due to their nomadic nature, one common language spread all over the Eurasian steppe, Proto-Indo-European.

    The south-western group, living on the shores of the Black Sea, was composed mostly of R1b1b2 people with a G2a3 and R1a1a minority (absorbed neighbours). This group was the fore-runner of the Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European languages. After acquiring horses from their R1a1a neighbours from the Volga-Ural region, they progressively left the Dnieper-Don region and moved towards the Danube valley. There they encountered fierce resistance from the well-established farming communities descending from the Linear Pottery Culture. So they pushed forward in search of less densely populated land. They found it in western and northern Europe, where agriculture was more rudimentary, populations less dense, and societies less technologically advanced. This is how R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1 jumped from the Black Sea region to Western Europe.

    The people that already lived in Western Europe belonged to haplogroups I1, I2a, I2b, the descendants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but also E1b1b, T and J2 people who came during the Neolithic through the Danube basin and island-hopping their way around the Mediterranean. I think that it is possible that these E1b1b, T and J2 people also included some G2a people in their southern route (possibly from a later, independent migration). That's why I am open to the possibility of two different sources for G2a in Europe; one Neolithic and one Indo-European.

    I noticed that there were a few G2a3b1 in European Russia, in addition to India. The nomadic Indo-European steppe culture being so mobile by nature, it would make sense that some people from the south-western group (R1b1b2 + G2a3b1) ended up in the north-eastern one (R1a1a), before this latter conquered Central and South Asia. This would explain why R1b1b2 and G2a3b1 are small minorities in Russia, and even more in Central and South Asia. Likewise, R1a1a people would have joined the south-western group, explaining why there is a small percentage of R1a1a in all predominantly R1b1b2a1 regions in Western Europe.

    It is because of this close connections between these three Indo-European haplogroups that I listed them side by side in my table of Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies.
    OK Thank you this is interesting .

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    Since, I am still not allowed to use URLs, imagine here images that Maciamo has posted...

    It's hard to see correlation between spread of G2a and of R1b-U152...perhaps with idea that carriers of R1b-U152 came from Caucasus where they assimilated some G2a and than came via Asia minor, one can get fuzzy idea of R1b-U152 spreading it over Europe... but while this may distantly look as good theory for low percentage areas it certainly doesnot explain peaks... since those do not correlate at all with peaks of R1b-U152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures
    I do not think it has anything to do with proto-Celtic and Celtic Hallstaat & La Tenne cultures... it is rather naive approach to take genetic distribution of frequencies of some haplogroup as it is today, and to try to match it to a population that has inhabited area thousands years ago.... that assumes there are no major movement of people and no wars...
    but history teach us something different....
    if one wants to make conclusions about distant past, he/she should better use variance of the haplogroup... because it remains present longer...even after the carriers of the group has mostly left the area...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
    fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
    are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.
    why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
    how could they settle there... well, why not?
    trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
    Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
    after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

    perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
    how could they settle there... well, why not?
    trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
    Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
    after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

    perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...
    Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?

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